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Posted: 7/30/2005 8:30:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 9:45:38 PM EDT by USMC_LB]
A History of the Combat Shotgun

The combat shotgun first showed its usefulness in the trenches of World War I.



The Trenchgun was born...

The Winchester Mod 97,with its shrouded 18 -20" barrel and 17" bayonet, was so feared by the enemy that
the Germans complained that the weapon was "inhumane" and urged that it be banned from "civilized war".



On 27 September 1918, Sergeant Fred Lloyd, using a Model 97, advanced alone into a German-held village
and began methodically clearing the village, rapidly pumping and firing the shotgun as he moved. He finally
collapsed with exhaustion after flushing and routing thirty German soldiers. The combat shotgun had earned
its place as an Army secondary weapon.

Mainly a sporting arm, this shotgun now known as the "Trench Sweeper" was able to show its domination for
close combat.

At the close of World War I, the Army had 19,600 Model 97s on hand. These were used to guard prisoners
and mail in the '20s and '30s.

During the latter part of this period a pair of smaller shotguns would spread hate & discontent from Missouri
to Louisiana and points in between.

Clyde Barrow's sawed off Remington Model 11 & Bonnie's "Whipit" Rem Mod 11 (pictured)
were very handy sized "shotties" that could deal out alot of lead quickly.



They proved to be formidable weapons up until May 1934 when the duo were killed in a road-
side ambush by officers of the law down in Louisiana. In the end, It's death for Bonnie and Clyde...

------------------------------------------------

Ever since, there has been the clash between full size "sporting" shotguns, "customized"
shotguns that are setup for "combat" and shotguns that are specifcally designed as a "Combat"
shotgun.

If the Winchester Mod 97 is the "Grandfather" of combat shotguns then the "father" of the
modern combat shotguns would be the Remington Mod 7188 Mk 1. It sported a 8-shot
magazine and was select-fire.



------------------------------------------------

Another popular military shotgun was the Ithaca Mod 37 with its "duckbill" shot spreader. This
specialty choke allowed a horizontal to vertical pattern ratio of 4:1 spread of shot. ( that would be
96" horizontal and 24" vertical at 30 yds ).



The so-called "duckbill spreader" was field tested in Vietnam by the Navy Seals and U.S. Marine
Corps "recon" teams in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The device was a special choke attachment
that produced an elliptical shot pattern. Several different variants were tried with both No. 4 and 00
Buckshot. Results were mixed, and the device never gained widespread acceptance. Some
Remington Model 870 Mark I shotguns were fitted with duckbill spreaders, but the most common
shotgun utilized with the device was the Ithaca Model 37.

The duckbill spreader never really caught on and today is just a footnote to U.S. military small arms
history. I know of no reference source that gives any sort of extensive in-depth information on the
subject.

------------------------------------------------

During the early 80's the US Armed Forces all established requirements for a Multipurpose,
Individual, Weapons System and the MIWS program was born...

Several prototype shotguns were submitted from individual companies.

One prototype was the design of Carroll D. Childers of the U.S. Naval Surface Weapons
Center, Dahlgren, Virginia.



A select-fire battle shotgun that features a blow forward barrel and ammunition that exits rear-
wardly out of the magazine. The upper drawings depicts the 20-round, double column, box
mag & the lower has the 10 round mag. It was even said there was potential for a belt fed
version.

------------------------------------------------

Another was the Hillberg-Findlay military Battle Shotgun concept.



It was stated that the potential that this design possesses as a pure combat weapon was
"outstanding" and that it displays the same advanced concepts and configuration as the
latest assault rifle designs ( heh, they obviously have never experienced a bullpup style
firearm first-hand )

-------------------------------------------------

A third prototype was the Winter shotgun system. ( which looks alot like the more modern
combat shotgun, the Neostead, shown as images #3 & #4, for comparison )









It was a semi-auto designed by John W. Winter of Phoenix, AZ that utilizes a unique, twin-
tube magazines below the barrel ( the Neostead barrel is BELOW its dual tube mags ) that
offers the shotgun a 18 shot capacity and its name, the SWATRIPLEX-18.

It has a movable charging handle as well as left & right ejection ports which are accessed by
the user by simply moving the cheek rest to the desired side.

-------------------------------------------------

The High Standard Model 10 ( 10A & 10B ) was one of the precursors to the modern combat
shotgun.







Designed by Alfred Crouch, the Model 10 shotguns did not reach the zenith of their popularity
until after they were dropped through a change in High Standard management. The Model 10
pictured above with a optional mag extension made by Choate Machine & Tool Company.

The buttplate could be swiveled horizontally so that someone could shoot the shotgun
one handed and the buttstock would brace against the arm which in reality didnt work well.
Neither did the flashlight...

While being very promising in theory, the HS Model 10 shotguns were known for inadequate
reliability, especially with the non-magnum loads. The relatively low magazine capacity of only
4 rounds also was a minus. Initially HS 10 shotguns found some popularity among the US
police departments, but latter were quickly retired from active duty.

------------------------------------------------

In the early 1980s in the USA was started program CAWS - Close Assault Weapon System.
The main goal of this programme was to develop a new generation personal firearm, capable
of firing high-impulse, multiple projectiles with effective range of 100-150 meters. Using of the
multiple projectiles should increase the chances of hitting the target in combat.

( this sounds very similar to the MIWS program that was earlier mentioned... )

Here is the HK entry for the CAWS program:



HK CAWS is a select-fire, smoothbore weapon, designed to fire special, high-presure
shotshells, loaded with tungsten buckshot or fleschettes. HK CAWS utilised patented
recoil-operated action with moving barrel and additional, self-regulated gas assist system
(used to help unlock breechblock from the barrel if low-power ammo is used).
Charging handle is located under the carrying handle, at the top of the receiver, and is
ambidextrous. Standard HK-style safety-switch/fire selector has 3 position: Safe,
Semi-auto, 3 rounds bursts.The HK CAWS was tested by US Military, but the whole
CAWS program was closed, and the CAWS development freezed.

------------------------------------------------

One of the best combat shotguns to come out of the MIWS program was the select-fire, drum-
fed, assault shotgun named the Assault 12. It was desgned by Maxwell G. Atchisson and
marketed by Scepter, Inc. of Marietta, GA.

( Within the last year I read a small blurb in a gun rag where there is talk of sending
the Atchisson Assault 12 to Iraq ) Can anyone confirm this ??




People who tested it in the 80's said that it was a remarkable piece of ordnance that has
applications in military, para-military and LE organizations.



The Atchisson Assault 12 production gun is a locked breach, gas operated weapon
functioning on new principals for its time. It was marketed with a 7-shot single column mag
and a 20 shot, torsion spring powered drum mag.



A semi-automatic version firing from a closed bolt was to be offered to the civilian market.



Here is the original 1972 model with 7-round mag:



Here it is with the 1972 model with 20-round drum:



Later it was re-designed, here are some pictures of the PRE-1984 model:




I am not sure if Atchisson sold the rights to a Korean company or if it was some form
of reverse engineering but in the 80's the USAS-12 shotgun was developed in South
Korea by Daewoo Precision Industries.



The USAS-12 is select-fire as well ( some were sold as semi-autos ) and is an
ambidextrous weapon, having two ejection ports on each side of the receiver, and
two slots on the forearm for cocking handle. The ejector on the bolt and the cocking handle
could be easily set to operate either side of the gun, depending on the present shooter
needs and preferences.

In 1994 under new US law it was classified as a Class III "Destructive device", which limited
its civilian sales and use. It is still offered for military and law enforcement agencies, though.

The most known combat shotgun is most likely the Franchi SPAS-12.



The SPAS-12 was designed in the late 1970s by the Italian company Luigi Franchi Spa as a
special purpose, military and police close combat weapon (actually, SPAS stands for
Sporting Purpose Automatic Shotgun, or Special Purpose Automatic Shotgun, depending on
the source).



Later the design was improved and the Franchi SPAS-15 was born...


Both models can work in SEMI-auto or PUMP action.

-------------------------------------------------

In my searches I came across a small photo in a early 80's magazine that mentioned two
shotguns that were built out if Fayetteville, AR. It looks similar to a SPAS-15 but is definitely
not a Franchi. The caption gives all the info I know about these rare US made shotguns.



One was semi-auto and the other pump action. If anyone knows anything about these rare
shotguns from Arkansas please share with us all!

-------------------------------------------------

The latest combat shotgun from Russia with love...

This shotgun had been developed by the IZHMASH Russian State Arms company in the early
1990s as a member of the whole family of semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, based on the
famous and time-proven Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifle design.





This design has also been improved on with several new features: new style front sight base/
gas port, ability to take AK style foregrips, attatched dust cover that swings up, a new style
bolt hold open device and a new polymer magazine well extension that eliminates the old
AK mag "hook & rock" process to insert mags. It is believed that the new mag well also
takes a new style mag.




------------------------------------------------

Now, last but not least, here are the current US combat shotguns




As well as the new Joint Service Combat Shotgun, the Benelli M4 M1014.



12 Gauge, Semi-automatic, Gas Operated, 6-3 inch magnum, 7-2.75 inch
Modular telescopic buttstock with removable pistol grip.



Thanks for reading and if you have any other shotguns to add please share.

If you enjoyed this read please post it here so others will have the chance.


LB

Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:34:26 PM EDT
wow
quite the definitive thread.
Shame it will be page 8 in 3 hours.
I am not a big fan of the combat shotgun, but I know many are.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:40:29 PM EDT
Man i'de love to own one of those Saiga shotguns...
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:42:40 PM EDT
My Dad, during his second tour in Vietnam, was issued a CAR-15. It jammed up so much that he traded it in for a pump-action shotgun, which he carried the rest of his tour there.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:44:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
Man i'de love to own one of those Saiga shotguns...



Here is my personal that I built after the ban...



LB
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:44:57 PM EDT
I have a Remington "Sportsman" whippet gun (actually, I bought it for my son). Pretty nifty.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:45:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 8:46:45 PM EDT by USMC_LB]

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
I have a Remington "Sportsman" whippet gun (actually, I bought it for my son). Pretty nifty.



You gotta post pictures man !

LB


PS Someone here has a shotgun they call the "Lil Black Bitch" that was very sweet looking...
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:50:18 PM EDT
Very cool - thanks for taking the time to put it together
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:50:59 PM EDT
Just to help keep this at the top of the front page.

I love the looks of many combat shotguns, even though I know rifles are more effective general purpose weapons.

Thanks for the pictorial.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:51:08 PM EDT
Entire post saved to hard disk, will print out at home.

My dad had a real 1897 trench gun, and it shocked me as a little kid when he said he sold it. That was going to be mine some day!
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:51:46 PM EDT
In my opine,,, the benelli system smokes all others. Super simple,super fast. My favorite shotgun. I swear I never miss , well if I do I just keep yanking on the trigger until I don't.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:57:00 PM EDT
Oh yeah, That duckbill choke is the stuff. Check out Navy seal info on this one. Spreads the pattern on a horizional plane, where people are. #4 shot is supposed to be just right for this choke...
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:58:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 9:00:16 PM EDT by FN-TPS]
What a great labor of love post! ....Have you posted it down in the Shotgun Forum in the Armory section, where it would probably hang around longer and Ikor might even tack it? I'm sure the shotgun guys there, will provide you with quite a bit more, in the way if imagery.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:06:51 PM EDT
Out of all of those designs I like the SPAS-12 most.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:24:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 9:25:41 PM EDT by FN-TPS]
Machinegunmaniac

Out of all of those designs I like the SPAS-12 most.


Yeah and you'd like it even better, when you tripped the safety lever, with a round in the chamber and it blew a hole in your wall, or you had to look for parts, for the damned thing.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:25:53 PM EDT
Bump.

Proud to have a SPAS-12 and a Mossberg 590.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:42:10 PM EDT
whoa, anyone play Halo?

Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:46:42 PM EDT
Edited to add this image to the original post...

Anyone ever seen these shotguns before ?




LB
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:00:34 PM EDT
The locals here fear the shotgun.... for keeping crowds away from a convoy or moving them from an area one man with a shotgun can beat move crowds better than 10 with M-16's,

I have no clue why, I have been told the Talibans worst "enforcers" used shotguns and caused fear for them but I have no clue if that is accurate.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:01:51 PM EDT
Saiga shotgun rocks, I need to get one and make it really evil.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:04:55 PM EDT
what no Pancor Jackhammer?
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:09:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:12:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
Man i'de love to own one of those Saiga shotguns...



Here is my personal that I built after the ban...

home.midsouth.rr.com/lduncan1/Spetsnaz004.jpg

LB



where did you get the folder?
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:13:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
what no Pancor Jackhammer?



Yeah, I left it out as well as the Streetsweeper...

both designs are inferior once you empty the firearm of rounds... IMHO

In a long running battle the Neostead is far better and I practically left it
out except to mention that it looked like a proptotype shotgun from the
80's ( Winter Combat Shotgun ).


LB
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:45:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
Man i'de love to own one of those Saiga shotguns...



Here is my personal that I built after the ban...

home.midsouth.rr.com/lduncan1/Spetsnaz004.jpg

LB



where did you get the folder?



Its not a folder....

I drooled over this picture for months wishing I could have a stock like the
one on the Spetsnaz Saiga12...

I finally figured out that it was made of of these:

1) Paratrooper side folding stock



2) Grenade Launcher Buttpad



and the hardest part to figure out for me...

3) SVD cheekrest



In the end I decided to save me mucho money by using a "fixed" stock.

RPB has a molded polymer stock that is very nice ( $30 vs $200 for real folder )

Once all the stuff is added to the stock it cannot close al the way so it is a
complete waste of a folding stock IMHO.

Contact RPB USA at 1-800-858-0809 I know their website is down... dunno if they are still
open for business.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 12:14:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
Edited to add this image to the original post...

Anyone ever seen these shotguns before ?

home.midsouth.rr.com/lduncan1/HolmesF.jpg


LB



Never seen one in person, The Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons 2nd Edition has a long article on the Holmes 89 Assault Shotgun. I think that it was published in 89. The article lists an address for the inventor, Bill Holmes, as :

Holmes Arms
Route 6, Box 242
Fayetteville AR 72703

If you want, I can try to scan in the article next week and send it to you or I can make copies and snail mail it to you.

HTH

Breacher
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 1:34:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
Man i'de love to own one of those Saiga shotguns...



Here is my personal that I built after the ban...

home.midsouth.rr.com/lduncan1/Spetsnaz004.jpg

LB



I need one of those
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 2:29:08 AM EDT

Man i'de love to own one of those Saiga shotguns...




I love mine, it has like no recoil, or is that because I am so big? Took iot to the range, my department uses the Mossberg 590, those that shot it liked it. I would like some 8 rd mags, I have 5 - 5 round ones. I also have a 590 and a Norinco 97, the 2nd generation, it is a decent shotgun also.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 2:58:21 AM EDT

http://home.midsouth.rr.com/lduncan1/new_saiga.jpg


Wow... I wish I had one of those!
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 4:28:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Breacher:

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
Edited to add this image to the original post...

Anyone ever seen these shotguns before ?

home.midsouth.rr.com/lduncan1/HolmesF.jpg


LB



Never seen one in person, The Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons 2nd Edition has a long article on the Holmes 89 Assault Shotgun. I think that it was published in 89. The article lists an address for the inventor, Bill Holmes, as :

Holmes Arms
Route 6, Box 242
Fayetteville AR 72703

If you want, I can try to scan in the article next week and send it to you or I can make copies and snail mail it to you.

HTH

Breacher



The scans would be great ! I would really appreciate it.


LB
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 4:29:39 AM EDT
This post may be considered a "Reality Check" for some of the "Gizmo" wizards among us. My friends background: 20 years USMC, mostly with recon/force recon. Final assignment as intel. analyst briefing the big-wigs during Desert Storm. He was also on the ground there. The gunny bought a shotgun off the rack in a base exchange and cut down the stock to a pistol-grip configuration/install sling swivels and a sling. No matter what else he carried, "Baby" was a constant companion. From the Aleution Sic) islands to the deserts of the middle east, and points in between we'll never know. To my knowledge, the only parts that he replaced were a trigger guard and firing pin. She still does home defense duty. Ray
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 4:35:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 4:47:49 AM EDT
I'm techno-challenged. What does that smiley face represent ? Ray
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 6:32:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ferretray:
I'm techno-challenged. What does that smiley face represent ? Ray



prolly just bumping this thread like I asked all to do... thats all


LB
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:27:12 AM EDT
I'd like to give that Neostead a try. The last I heard they said they had imported a few hundred. Has anyone seen one in person?

Cheers
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:32:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2005 7:32:37 AM EDT by Different]
USMC_LB, are you going to make this scholarly work into a book?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:36:29 AM EDT
Great post!!!!


Here's my 20" 1897 Riot gun manufactured in 1917









Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:47:58 AM EDT
Other current shotguns should include

Mossberg M500 & M590A1
Remington M870(Various models)
Winchester 1200 & 1300

My cousin has seen 2 Winchester 1897s in his units armory.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:56:33 AM EDT
Very fine job, USMC_LB.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:29:15 AM EDT
I purposely left out the most-known shotguns of the current US inventory....

LB
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:01:19 AM EDT
Someone needs to make some new 17" bayonets that will fit the current crop of military shotguns (and rifles as well)

Mossberg with a 17" bayonet would be useful against the PETA and Green Peace protestors

I wonder if you could make a taster bayonet. Might be interesting.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:05:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:20:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:32:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:35:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i was told HS stopped production due to some PD lawsuits or dislocated and injured elbows from guys firing it tucked into the elbow instead of the shoulder.

the flashlight on the 10a is preset to match the pattern of 00 buck. wherever you see light is where you shot should hit.




I have those things as well. I have never seen the spreader for the Model 10... yet.

LB

Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:39:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:46:03 AM EDT
Great post USMC LB....Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:47:02 AM EDT
Cool thread, I know what I want for X-mas.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 12:14:20 PM EDT
this shotgun histroy thread is awsome!


does the SPAS have both a pump and semi-auto option?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 12:24:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
tinypic.com/9r0zno.jpg

Saiga 12… I have wood!

And YES!… that thing is legal over here… my local dealer is an agent for them.


ANdy



But only with a 24" Bbl

Mark
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 12:35:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
The locals here fear the shotgun.... for keeping crowds away from a convoy or moving them from an area one man with a shotgun can beat move crowds better than 10 with M-16's,

I have no clue why, I have been told the Talibans worst "enforcers" used shotguns and caused fear for them but I have no clue if that is accurate.



During WWI, it was such a feared weapon by the Germans that any allied person captured, who had a shotgun, was summarily executed. They (Germans) wanted the shotgun banned under the Geneva Accords or whatever it was, on the grounds that it was inhumane, etc.

Consequently, during WWII, not many allied men wanted to carry a shotgun, having "if the krauts catch you with that, you'll get executed" drilled into their brain.

Ever since WWI, the shotgun, especially the pump, has been feared the world over...even your inner-city disadvantaged youth will soil his pants if he hears that click-clack, and he doesn't even have a historical perspective of what one can do.

It wouldn't surprise me that they're feared over there

Thank you for your service, and keep safe.
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