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Posted: 3/16/2006 12:06:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:08:48 AM EDT
28 days later...
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:10:17 AM EDT
They have to test the drugs on someone. They knew the risks and took the money. It does go bad sometimes. Thats why its called experimentation and clinical trials.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:12:06 AM EDT
Sounds bad, but I wouldn't count on your source for reliable news. Can you find anything about this from other sources ?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:12:33 AM EDT
More,
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2088290,00.html

They tested this stuff on animals and they died?! And they STILL used it on people?!!!!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:14:01 AM EDT


head of trainee plumber Ryan Wilson, 21, is three times its normal size



Unbeliveable...
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:16:01 AM EDT
oops
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:24:18 AM EDT

The head of trainee plumber Ryan Wilson, 21, is three times its normal size and... purple.


Same result, different head and those guys would call Bill Gates poor.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:28:29 AM EDT
It's a cover for Willy Wonka's three course meal chewing gum experiments. They are turning into blueberries..
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:43:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By smokycity:
It's a cover for Willy Wonka's three course meal chewing gum experiments. They are turning into blueberries..



Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:47:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Belloc:
More,
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2088290,00.html

They tested this stuff on animals and they died?! And they STILL used it on people?!!!!!




yeah, monkeys were put on this earth for a reason


Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:03:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:24:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jmzd4:

yeah, monkeys were put on this earth for a reason




Yup, they were put here to evolve into people dumb enough to go to drug-trials and take shit with no idea what it's going to do to them.

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:24:58 AM EDT
Thats some crazy shit.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:36:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 2:45:11 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:38:13 AM EDT

They [the drugs company] said there was an oversensitivity in monkeys,” Ms Marshall said. She went on to say that in the tests a “dog and some animals had died . . . so they reduced the amount to humans”.


Good source, no doubt...one of the test subject's Girlfriends.


From the Sun Article (quote from the Drug Company Rep):

The investigation must proceed quickly into these shocking developments in the testing of a new medicine, which showed no signs of any safety problems in previous testing.”


I'm witholding any kind of comment on what went wrong until I can see some unbiased reporting.

How many/what kind of animals was the drug tested on? If some died, what was the ratio? What did they die of?

What kind of regulations does the British Pharmaceutical Industry fall under? Are they as restrictive as the FDA testing requirements?

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:44:19 AM EDT
I feel sorry for those guys. Must be a really horrible feeling knowing your head is starting to pop
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:48:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:51:23 AM EDT
man thats fucked up. Sucks to be them.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:09:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 3:09:40 AM EDT by Bob1984]

Originally Posted By gaspain:
man thats fucked up. Sucks to be them.



IMO, not the most sensitive thing to say.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:14:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By gaspain:
man thats fucked up. Sucks to be them.



IMO, not the most sensitive thing to say.



Im not a sensitive PC guy. Sorry to piss in your Wheaties, but the truth is: it does suck to be them.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:15:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspain:

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By gaspain:
man thats fucked up. Sucks to be them.



IMO, not the most sensitive thing to say.



Im not a sensitive PC guy. Sorry to piss in your Wheaties, but the truth is: it does suck to be them.



Fair enough. I certainly don't envy the position they're in, I think the situation sucks and I hope the doctors are able to save their lives.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:24:27 AM EDT
it sucks, and if there was negligence then I hope the company gets screwed, however the people knew the risks!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:50:29 AM EDT
That shit is crazy.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:04:51 AM EDT
But can they start fires?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:19:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 5:07:13 AM EDT by 71-Hour_Achmed]

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By jmzd4:

yeah, monkeys were put on this earth for a reason




Yup, they were put here to evolve into people dumb enough to go to drug-trials and take shit with no idea what it's going to do to them.



From the articles, these were youngish guys who were testing an arthritis medication. If they were young *and* had arthritis, odds are it was one of the severe childhood-onset types. I know someone who had one a few years ago, and she expected to be dead before she was forty. She was around 25 and had undergone multiple joint replacements. The pain she endured on a daily basis would make you wet your pants, cry, and pass out.

When you are seriously ill and existing treatments don't do anything for you, testing something new might be your only hope for some relief. That isn't "dumb", that's just desperation.

ETA: read another article on it, and it said the guys were HEALTHY. WTF??? Ok, I take my comment about "desperation" back. I guess I'll wait to find out what really happened. . . .
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:28:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M15A2:
28 87 days later...

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:29:48 AM EDT
This is why we have the FDA in the US. Trials cannot proceed in such a haphazard fashion here. Europe is our test bed.....
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:12:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ClayP:
This is why we have the FDA in the US. Trials cannot proceed in such a haphazard fashion here. Europe is our test bed.....


Yeah, the FDA. They've saved thousands of lives -- at the cost of millions of lives.

AIDS medications in particular. Hey, those guys are dead meat. There was no point in delaying medications for years over safety considerations for people who were going to be dead in a couple of years if they didn't get something to suppress the course of the disease. But noooooOOOOOoooooooOOOooooooOOoooooo, the FDA had to drag out approvals forever just to be "sure" that the side effects wouldn't kill them. Same goes for some cancer medications; I had a coworker who was about to die, then suddenly a manufacturer got a miracle cure for his rare cancer approved. If the FDA had delayed it another two months, he probably would have been dead already.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:17:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
They have to test the drugs on someone. They knew the risks and took the money. It does go bad sometimes. Thats why its called experimentation and clinical trials.



+1
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:25:45 AM EDT
It was my understanding that experimental drugs were tested in clinical trials on people who have the disease that the drug is designed to treat. At a certain point, if existing medications aren't helping you, it must feel like you have nothing to lose. You'd have to understand the risk going into it that the drugs could either improve your condition, have no effect, or make it worse. Very sad though if this is because proper protocol wasn't practiced.

Horrible.

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:27:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 5:28:36 AM EDT by drfcolt]
......wanted trial cash to take his mum on hol.....

Those Brtish - I just love the way they talk!!!!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:55:35 AM EDT
I've read the article, I think victims were fine physically when they went into the trials. I remember in the USofA, there was a drug test at a midwest university where a healthy test subject unexpectely died in drug test, the US FDA came down on them like a ton of bricks.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:19:39 AM EDT
Heard some info about this yesterday. It is a phase one trial which is generally a risk assessment trial and they use healthy people that volunteer and get paid. For this trial they got 3500.00 which for a trial is very high, according to the report I heard. Typically in a phase one a single subject will get the medicine if anything goes wrong they stop or go one from there and then they tell the second person what happened to the first and so on down the line. The phase one is just looking for bad things to happen. In the later phases they do all of the placebo stuff and add several users etc. In this one they had eight people with two of them being placebo. So all six got messed up. Also in general they keep the money low so that they don't get people that will keep coming in for trials as a job.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:25:17 AM EDT
Okay, I wasn't sure how that worked.

Sounds pretty risky to me. There's got to be easier ways to make money.

(I'm currently looking into the possibility of getting into a trial for the melanoma vaccine, but I believe that it's well into phase III, it's been going for years.)
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:36:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:52:01 AM EDT

The head of trainee plumber Ryan Wilson, 21, is three times its normal size and his limbs are purple. Doctors said his chances of survival were slim.

Another victim, a 28-year-old Asian man, was said to “look like The Elephant Man”.



Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:18:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:

Originally Posted By ClayP:
This is why we have the FDA in the US. Trials cannot proceed in such a haphazard fashion here. Europe is our test bed.....


Yeah, the FDA. They've saved thousands of lives -- at the cost of millions of lives.

AIDS medications in particular. Hey, those guys are dead meat. There was no point in delaying medications for years over safety considerations for people who were going to be dead in a couple of years if they didn't get something to suppress the course of the disease. But noooooOOOOOoooooooOOOooooooOOoooooo, the FDA had to drag out approvals forever just to be "sure" that the side effects wouldn't kill them. Same goes for some cancer medications; I had a coworker who was about to die, then suddenly a manufacturer got a miracle cure for his rare cancer approved. If the FDA had delayed it another two months, he probably would have been dead already.



Be realistic, the FDA did not cause any of these people to contract AIDS or cancer. They are responsible for the safe research, testing and implementation of palliative medications and biological implants. Without the FDA would be a total medical/legal fiasco in regards to the pharmaceutical and biotech industry. No one would dare bring anything to market. Even when testing is done appropriately, devastating judgements still come against companies like DOW and MERCK for the "atrocities" of silicone breast implants and Vioxx. They are the sole reason there are not more class action lawsuits over ever single adverse reaction.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:39:08 AM EDT
It sure sounds fishy that it passed animal tests and yet within minutes of injection the human patienets were in agony. There is definitely much more to this story.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:43:23 AM EDT
This story is hilarious!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:43:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Weiseguy:
It sure sounds fishy that it passed animal tests and yet within minutes of injection the human patienets were in agony. There is definitely much more to this story.



Yeah, and I don't think the human head can increase 3x in size without something busting open in an immediately lethal way....

Sabotage by PETA?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:37:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

The head of trainee plumber Ryan Wilson, 21, is three times its normal size and his limbs are purple. Doctors said his chances of survival were slim.

Another victim, a 28-year-old Asian man, was said to “look like The Elephant Man”.



basketballboards.net/forum/images/smilies/ttiwwop.gif



Seriously! As I read the articles, the thought most on my mind was "Damn! Now i just GOTTA see THAT shit!"
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:37:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:

Originally Posted By ClayP:
This is why we have the FDA in the US. Trials cannot proceed in such a haphazard fashion here. Europe is our test bed.....


Yeah, the FDA. They've saved thousands of lives -- at the cost of millions of lives.

AIDS medications in particular. Hey, those guys are dead meat. There was no point in delaying medications for years over safety considerations for people who were going to be dead in a couple of years if they didn't get something to suppress the course of the disease. But noooooOOOOOoooooooOOOooooooOOoooooo, the FDA had to drag out approvals forever just to be "sure" that the side effects wouldn't kill them. Same goes for some cancer medications; I had a coworker who was about to die, then suddenly a manufacturer got a miracle cure for his rare cancer approved. If the FDA had delayed it another two months, he probably would have been dead already.



If the FDA approves a drug that KILLS people, then the shit will realy hit the fan. There will be lawsuites from hell and heads will roll at FDA. What about those who arn't going to die in 6 months and take this wounder drug and die?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:32:23 AM EDT
As odd as it may sound, the FDA would be in a world of legal hurt if they rushed approval for drugs because "victims would die anyways." Cancer victims can certainly sue over botched treatments even if their prognosis doesn't entail their living to see the restitution.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:06:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Weiseguy:
It sure sounds fishy that it passed animal tests and yet within minutes of injection the human patienets were in agony. There is definitely much more to this story.



Highly unusual, but not fishy at all. Animal tests do not always correlate to human use, that is why human testing is essential. Thalidomide is a prime example, animal testing did not show the potential for phocomelia birth defects. Baytril is another example - it is used in veterenary applications but not humans (causes seizures and hallucinations).

Healthy volunteers are used because you dont want the effects of a disease to complicate the assessment of drug activity, especially in Phase I trials.

Animals dying during testing isnt a reason to not test on humans per se. Toxicity testing is performed on animals long before human tests begin, to establish a toxicity profile.

They volunteered and were paid - what happened is one of the risks involved.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:57:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By jmzd4:

yeah, monkeys were put on this earth for a reason




Yup, they were put here to evolve into people dumb enough to go to drug-trials and take shit with no idea what it's going to do to them.




not exactly what I meant swing, but now that you said it, I can agree with your resoning in dealing with this subject.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:05:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 1:06:12 PM EDT by jmzd4]

Originally Posted By Ginger:
It was my understanding that experimental drugs were tested in clinical trials on people who have the disease that the drug is designed to treat. Horrible.




Coming from one that works in the research field, take it from me that these drugs are tested on people in clinical trials that meet the criteria of the study, and not nessicarily the symptoms of the disease that the drug is supposed to treat/cure.

One thing I found out fast when I started working in the research field is that ethics and morality are ambiguous at the best.

The topic of this thread is case and point.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:39:44 PM EDT
Clinical Trials in the US involve many years.

New Drug design, lab based testing on computer models, living cells, etc.

Animal Testing.

Testing On HEALTHY, DISEASE free individuals (to examine for side effects)****That is where these guys probably were on the testing, assuming the UK uses the FDA model.

Testing on Limited Numbers of People with the disease (normally with minimal existing pathology).

Testing on Large Numbers of People with the disease (with a wide variety of problems).

Approval of the Drug--

Even after there is approval, there is an Adverse Drug Event reporting REQUIREMENT that all health care practitioners must report known drug problems.


Each stage above can take 1-3+ years.


Even so--look at Vioxx as a recent example. Worked pretty well for what it was designed to do. Long term use caused some complications (basically raising the Blood Pressure by 5-10 points--which caused an increase in the number of problems with stroke, heart attacks, etc). The company stands to lose BILLIONS of $$ in lawsuits for a drug that met the testing requrements. I still have some samples here--works GREAT on headaches and bad muscle aches and pains.

People fail to realize that NO drug is without side effects, even the Placebos used in testing have some reported side effects. Drug Companies get sued all the time for issues with their drugs, so of course they aren't going to circumvent the FDA approval process (yes, there are a few exceptions--however, in ANY industry there are people that will do that...look at Enron, etc.).

Yes, it is sad what happened to these guys, however, they DID sign off on a consent form, that would presumably include serious complications & death. The fact that the Media ran amok on this, and ambulance chasers are probably coming out of the woodwork because of it, doesn't necessarily mean the Drug Company did wrong. I still reserve judgement on any blame until I find an unbiased source with full details.

AFARR


PS--are they called Ambulance Chasers in England (Lorry Chasers, perhaps?).
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:04:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmzd4:

Originally Posted By Ginger:
It was my understanding that experimental drugs were tested in clinical trials on people who have the disease that the drug is designed to treat. Horrible.




Coming from one that works in the research field, take it from me that these drugs are tested on people in clinical trials that meet the criteria of the study, and not nessicarily the symptoms of the disease that the drug is supposed to treat/cure.

One thing I found out fast when I started working in the research field is that ethics and morality are ambiguous at the best.

The topic of this thread is case and point.



Thanks for the clarification. I honestly had no idea people volunteered and were paid to be human guinea pigs.


BTW, lawyers are called solicitors in England.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:07:55 PM EDT
Before you guys pull out the violins, they GOT PAID. They knew the risks and they took it.

You use the meds on HEALTHY individuals to make sure it does not have any unwanted effects.

If you use it on ill patients, you might not be able to tell if its the effect of the drug or the disease.

Animals and people are not the same. They use chimps because they are the closest to us.

Dont believe the media, I really doubt some pharm company would go to phase I trials without animal experimentation and trials.

I think I know what we should de with the prisioners at Gitmo and AbuGrave.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:37:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By jmzd4:

yeah, monkeys were put on this earth for a reason




Yup, they were put here to evolve into people dumb enough to go to drug-trials and take shit with no idea what it's going to do to them.




No we don't or can't use monkeys, PETA may get mad. After all they have more rights then humans.
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