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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/14/2001 6:54:32 PM EDT
Observations - military trial for suspected terrorists, - eavesdropping on attorney client conversations, - open contemplation of torture on suspected terrorists, - can be held by police for a week without being told why. This is just off the top of my head. I better turn the foil inside out because because if this and more is reality I don't want to know what it feels like to be paranoid.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:07:24 PM EDT
Maybe its time to consider making friends with the A.C.L.U? These ideas of Bush's may seem like great ideas for law enforcement, but what happens AFTER the "war"? The laws will remain, and we will live in a totalitarian country.Torture? Wow! After awhile the mechanism will be in place, but it won't get enough traffic, so Kongress will pass laws recommending torture for mafia figures, murder suspects, and drug dealers."Like a cigarette old man?"
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:20:48 PM EDT
It is scary that all of this is being pushed through with not even a respectable protest. I fully support the military action on the terrorists but History is full of examples of poor/misguided/totalitarian legislation being passed in times of emotional upheavel. It is just a little unnerving.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:22:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: Maybe its time to consider making friends with the A.C.L.U? These ideas of Bush's may seem like great ideas for law enforcement, but what happens AFTER the "war"? The laws will remain, and we will live in a totalitarian country.Torture? Wow! After awhile the mechanism will be in place, but it won't get enough traffic, so Kongress will pass laws recommending torture for mafia figures, murder suspects, and drug dealers."Like a cigarette old man?"
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Eventually it will devolve into a society in which a parking violation will become a capitol offense - and the organs of the convicted will be used to maintain the health and lives of those in power (and not the criminal element) - then will come the organ-leggers. Gotta stop reading my old Larry Niven stuff...
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:31:27 PM EDT
I believe that these rules only apply to non citizens. Not sure if I have a real problem with that, though power gained is rarely power lost. jhasz- Lucifer's Hammer is an awesome book BTW.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:33:56 PM EDT
Umm, guys, it applys to [i]NON US CITIZENS ONLY[/i]. Go look up [i]US v. Verdugo Enrequez 1994[/i]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:49:43 PM EDT
The original article I read regarding the military trials did not contain the critical explanation of only applying to non US citizens. That and my extreme state of fatigue has warped my sensibilities. Not to stir the pot anymore but some of the talk going around does make one a little edgy.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:57:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ratters: I believe that these rules only apply to non citizens. Not sure if I have a real problem with that, though power gained is rarely power lost. jhasz- Lucifer's Hammer is an awesome book BTW.
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Yes it is, but you gotta read some of his "Known Space" stuff - and the Long A.R.M. of Gil Hamilton, etc... As for the topic, they may currently apply to only non-citizens, but let the ACLU get in there saying non-citizens should have the same rights as citizens, and someone will interpret that to mean that citizens should fall under those laws as well (just using political logic [;)])
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:59:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BlackAdder: The original article I read regarding the military trials did not contain the critical explanation of only applying to non US citizens. That and my extreme state of fatigue has warped my sensibilities. Not to stir the pot anymore but some of the talk going around does make one a little edgy.
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Its still causeing a uproar with the ACLU. They are wondering about what will happen if one of these guys on student visas they rounded up here in the US gets tried. Or a "resident alien" who has family here but hasnt gotten his citizenship papers yet. The whole reason for this is that a lot of the evidence against Taliban people was obtained by means that would get it thrown out in a regular US court of law. And it would be embarrasing to bring the mastermind of the WTC to trial and have it thrown out becuse the evidence was seized by the US Army or was tortured out of another suspect by the Saudi Secret Police.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 8:00:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 7:55:36 PM EDT by a2carbine]
Your not the Black Adder I know are you?[:)] I don't want to say your name if it is you,that would be up to you. Let me ask you this......Have you seen Kent?[:D]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:00:25 PM EDT
Don't worry! These laws are all being passed under the auspices of a PRO-GUN REPUBLICAN president! We must all support him totally and unconditionally. Otherwise we might make him look bad and end up with Al Gore in 2004. Remember! Don't say anything bad about these laws!
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:13:26 PM EDT
While we fuss and moan about losing civil rights, remember we must make some changes so 9-11-01 dosen't happen again. We have a great country and our freedoms are shared and taken advantage of by many. Our own laws and diffencies allowed us to be slapped. In order to catch them in a more timely manner, we have to make changes. We may not like the changes but what choice do we have and still maintain some symbolance of freedom? Not everyone will like any changes being made but I dare to suggest they will be a minority. We worry about losing or having our rights infringed upon but let's remember we scored a major victory with the 5th Circuit Court, last month! What better way to retain some belief in our system than to have the one right the protects us and guantees the rights of others, it affirmed. Matter of fact, I was given a book tonight by a friend. The book is entitled, "Gun Rights AFFIRMED U.S. v Emerson" Edited by Alan Gottlieb No flame intended on my observations.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 3:14:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 3:27:40 AM EDT
Illegals should be help to a different set of laws they dont call them Illegal for nothing.. Kill em all, let god sort em out Ropes
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 3:48:54 AM EDT
"Like a cigarette old man?"
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Is that from a Cheech & Chong skit? 'I cannot sign zee papers.' Eric The('HeStuckItInHisEye!')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 4:53:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pakrat: While we fuss and moan about losing civil rights, remember we must make some changes so 9-11-01 dosen't happen again. We have a great country and our freedoms are shared and taken advantage of by many. Our own laws and diffencies allowed us to be slapped. In order to catch them in a more timely manner, we have to make changes. We may not like the changes but what choice do we have and still maintain some symbolance of freedom? Not everyone will like any changes being made but I dare to suggest they will be a minority. We worry about losing or having our rights infringed upon but let's remember we scored a major victory with the 5th Circuit Court, last month!
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What changes have been made that you think will actually prevent a 9/11 type of attack? Or some new form of attack? All the changes I see are for show, not much else. Want to stop the 9/11 type of attack, ARM the crew and the passengers. It doesn't matter if the majority dislike the changes or just the minority. The constitution is supposed to protect the rights of everyone, not just the rights the majority believe in. If terrorists are such bad guys that they don't deserve due process and protections, how about child molester? Wife beaters? Gun stockpilers? It's all good until it's your ox being gored. I don't believe Emerson was a win. The NRA says "we won!". HCI says "we won!". Me, I think it was a mixed bag that maintained the status quo. I know my gun rights haven't changed any.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 6:05:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Umm, guys, it applys to [i]NON US CITIZENS ONLY[/i]. Go look up [i]US v. Verdugo Enrequez 1994[/i]
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Whats the differance? They are humans!Not humanoids.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 6:16:48 PM EDT
Well, it ain't exactly the "beacon of freedom and prosperity" anymore, is it? Maybe it never was. Why is everyone upset about this (including me)? Don't we all understand that freedom and liberty are fragile and that they have to be fought for continuously? By fighting I mean actual combat, not editorials, not voting, not posting angry self-righteous posts on ar15.com (I'm as guilty of this as anyone). You want freedom, you want respect. Like the guy who kicks ass down at the local pub? You gotta earn it. Right now, our "leaders" know the American people are an easy mark and they're taking full advantage (yes, even Bush--that little dog & pony show down in Crawford today was disgusting--only the stupidest among us would think that America sidling up to Russia is anything but globalization on the move). But honestly, I don't know what action would not be immediately cast down as terrorism or marginalized by the lapdog media. Civil disobedience? I dunno... Each little incremental step paved the way for the next one until we work half a year for the government and we have to ask permission to travel or own a gun. At least I know that my last straw is the day I have to go through some kind of checkpoint in order to get to work or cross a state border. That's all I really know. It feels like the water is getting pretty hot, but there's no place to jump out to except the fire itself.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 6:45:28 PM EDT
If the USA resorts to torturing people it becomes a UN issue, and we will lose seats on councils there, and worst of all this shame will be broadcast throughout the world.Bush will join the likes of Pinochet, Hitler, Ceaucescu, Stalin,Mao,Nero,Edward Longshanks,Bonaparte, Attila the Hun and Milosevic in history.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 7:01:47 PM EDT
Anyone read his military trial order? Wow. I loved the references to the three statutes which didn't say what he said they did, and the 2/3 vote to kill, and the fact the the only appeals were to him, or to Donny if GW feels like it. I want these dudes dead, but let's do it in real secret, okay?
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 7:11:29 PM EDT
Regardless of the technicals of the laws and policies that are being created...there is a fair amount of sentiment in the country about trading some freedoms for some safety. Freedom is a principle. Principles are not traded, bought, sold or measured. Things that are traded, bought, sold or measured are called commodities. If freedom is turned into a commodity, then it could be done away with altogether.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 7:37:08 PM EDT
If freedom becomes a commodity only the very rich will ever retain it.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 9:31:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: Anyone read his military trial order? Wow. I loved the references to the three statutes which didn't say what he said they did, and the 2/3 vote to kill, and the fact the the only appeals were to him, or to Donny if GW feels like it. I want these dudes dead, but let's do it in real secret, okay?
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I read the military trial order and found it scary. I simply do not like the idea of military tribunals trying anyone other than military personnel (our own and uniformed enemy military personnel). A lot of people here have dismissed this as a big deal about non-citizens. This is a mistake. If the precedent can be set, it will eventually be used against citizens, I guarantee you that. I support the government, and I have no problem with using our military to kill our enemies overseas. But if we intend to conduct a trial, this military tribunal thing will be widely considered a farce, and if it results in executions, it will be considered a travesty, especially with only a 2/3rds vote required.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 9:53:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl: I read the military trial order and found it scary. I simply do not like the idea of military tribunals trying anyone other than military personnel (our own and uniformed enemy military personnel).
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These are war crimes and should be treated as such. I am all for the "military tribunals" of non U.S terrorists.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 10:02:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
Originally Posted By ckapsl: I read the military trial order and found it scary. I simply do not like the idea of military tribunals trying anyone other than military personnel (our own and uniformed enemy military personnel).
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These are war crimes and should be treated as such. I am all for the "military tribunals" of non U.S terrorists.
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And what if it turns out that there are many US-born (citizens) people who either aided them or took part? beware that slippery slope- this law will be used against US at some point. Why? Because we peons have guns, senor. And the first thing a govt. agency or force wants to do is eliminate any potential competition from us campesinos. Yeah, us. Americans with guns. Just wait- somebody will misuse this law or use it as a precedent to worse things- if we let them. Banana Republic- not just a store!
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 10:10:10 PM EDT
The thing that bothers me is the fact that the reason our rights have been taken away is because the government has allowed this to happen. They allow anyone in the country. They are supposed to do backround checks and thay don't so we loose liberty. Just an aside here LEO's can either confirm or deny. Here in NC if a state trooper pulls an illegal alien over he issues a ticket the guy goes to court and pays a fine. If they are Illegal why on god's earth are they not arrested? If this was a federal gun violation instead of a federal immigration violation we all know what would happen. just my .02 cents
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 10:32:40 PM EDT
Don't be so paranoid,,are you kidding? sure if you take anything to the next ten levels etc. it might not be good,,,but
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 7:55:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IronMike: Don't be so paranoid,,are you kidding? sure if you take anything to the next ten levels etc. it might not be good,,,but
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Unfortunately, our own history and the history of mankind shows that the natural tendency of government is to take everything to the next ten levels. There is no shortage of examples. "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" - Ben Franklin. True in 1776, true now.
Link Posted: 11/18/2001 12:20:59 PM EDT
So much for the loosend standards. Most of the 1000 individuals detained in the post 9/11 sweep are going to be let go. Only a few even are going to be deported. Nothing has turned up yet with the interviews of the 5000 Middle Eastern men here on visas that they began a week or so ago. Even under the new, liberalized rules they still cant get anything to stick...
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