Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 9/10/2009 9:41:06 PM EST
Is anyone else involved with protecting the Members of their Church? I just started doing it, arranging training, background checks, handgun training. The most complicated part is what the insurance company is requiring. The good news is that they, the insurance company, is all for the added security!!

Any help or suggestions would be helpful. What are the pratfalls of going on this adventure!

Thanks in advance!!
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 3:19:04 AM EST
With a majority population of Elderly folks we’ve gone with low recoil rounds like the 32acp.
I know the drawbacks of the 32acp cartridge …but we're banking on volume.
I will say that the personal walkers a few of our members use….make great mobile gun mounts for our class 3 weapons.
Kidding!

It’s odd you mention it because just last week I had a visitor ask me what kind of security we had.
All I could think offhand was “the power of the Holy Spirit and a 5lb Bible”

I think there may be several States that legally forbid CCW in church buildings.
Might want to do some checking.
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 5:17:36 AM EST
I'm the head of our Security Team / Committee, and as such have been tasked with reviewing and modifying (as necessary) all of our security policies and plans. Good news is that I will have very little resistance when it comes to modifying anything. Why? Well, that's the bad news... we have almost no plans, and only one (sort of) policy of which I"m aware.

I'll be happy to share any good resources I find along the way, and I'd be most obliged if you'd share stuff you find.

One thing I'd suggest, though: OPSEC. Let's keep any actual plans, etc, in PM. We're not the CIA or the Pentagon, but I think wisdom would dictate that we exercise caution.
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 11:36:02 AM EST
You know, I have in passing considered this, because of what is going on about church security in other ministries.

I sing in our church's choir and set directly behind our pastor at about the distance of six feet.

About three weeks ago as I was sitting up there listening to our pastor preach the Word out of Revalation chapter seventeen, I felt as if the Spirit of God was impressing on me if someone were to enter the santuary and attempt to gun down our pastor, would I be willing to take a bullet for him.

I must say it seemed like that service is one of the longest ones that I have ever had to endure.

Does anyone know where I might get a line on a reasonably priced type II vest with trauma plate.

Thanks,

SAE
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 5:58:27 PM EST
We have a six man team. All of are CCW holders. There is STILL much debate about which is the best frame. 1911 or Glock and which round is better, .45 or 9mm. I happens every where, even with Christian men!!

We have signed on to be trained by Dutch at Dutch's firearms in Belton, MO. I will let you know the cost and the effectiveness of the training.
With all the wingnuts out there we have become proactive. We are "hoping for the best and training for the worst"
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 6:41:15 AM EST
This is one of the areas where I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach it. Here in TX, CCW is not at all uncommon but at the same time it's not generally the subject of open conversation at church (at least not ours).

I'd be interested to know 1. how you knew (or found out) who was licensed to carry in your congregation, and 2. how you approached the subject of carrying in church. I don't feel comfortable with making a general announcement like "If you are licensed to carry a concealed weapon, please see hcook after worship."
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 7:38:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By hcook:
This is one of the areas where I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach it. Here in TX, CCW is not at all uncommon but at the same time it's not generally the subject of open conversation at church (at least not ours).

I'd be interested to know 1. how you knew (or found out) who was licensed to carry in your congregation, and 2. how you approached the subject of carrying in church. I don't feel comfortable with making a general announcement like "If you are licensed to carry a concealed weapon, please see hcook after worship."


Our church has many small groups. Some are certain studies and some are just fun. I know there are lots of churches that have these. If your church has them, maybe you could start one for shooters. Nothing specific, just shooters. This would be a good environment to bring the subject up.
Come to think of it... maybe I'll do the same. I think there would be some really good fellowship in a group like that.
(We might have to separate the 9mm guys from the 45 guys, though. )
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 9:35:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 1:30:24 PM EST by SAE]
Originally Posted By hcook:
This is one of the areas where I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach it. Here in TX, CCW is not at all uncommon but at the same time it's not generally the subject of open conversation at church (at least not ours).

I'd be interested to know 1. how you knew (or found out) who was licensed to carry in your congregation, and 2. how you approached the subject of carrying in church. I don't feel comfortable with making a general announcement like "If you are licensed to carry a concealed weapon, please see hcook after worship."


A possible way for you to get some info concerning this, is to attend Sunday school and Wednesday bible study or prayer serivce, and mingle with church members as many at the church I attend often do after these more informal services in the front or sides of the church or many times in the parking lot, if they do that at the one you attend.

It may not be a subject you would want to bring up quickly after meeting more people at your church but usually if the conversation comes up about hunting, which is just around the corner then this other info about concealed carry could probably be brought up then, with not much of a problem, getting the information you may want concerning such.

As a side note my son-in-law Tim, who is a air-conditioning and heating tech is taking his CCW class at his home tommorow afternoon, and it will be a one on one five hour course with an exam at completion.

He currently is on call with the company that he has become employed with recently, and goes anywhere in the metro-plex right now and has become concerned with his own personal saftey, as he has also been in some pretty rough areas over there servicing air conditioners recently.

My wife and I pray for his saftey daily as we do for the rest of our kids and grand-kids.

It will cost him one hundred and fifty bucks, and now in the State of Texas he does not have to qualify with his pistol, and also his permit will be recognized in thirty-one other states at the present.

The pistol that he just purchased from Cabella's at my recommendaton is a Taurus Millemium 9mm semi-automatic pistol, in flat black, which is compact, and holds twelve rounds.

I also recommended Hornady personal defense rounds with the heaviest bullet weight available, with the ammo available, and with about all ammo in short supply right now, he was only able to pick up one box for now, and I requested that he buy at least three boxes of cheaper hard ball ammunition at different weights to check them out for penitration effect and possible feeding issues using lighter rounds, and for training, which he also did.

He paid three-hundred and ninteen dollars for his piece, and has only fired it at a few turtles around the tank on his back property so far.

Tomorrow evening we are going over to the kids for dinner and at that time Tim and I are going to set up dog-targets and I will try my best at that time to instruct him about some techniques about close-up defensive shooting, with a smaller caliber semi-auto, reloading skills under pressure and defensive posture stances and also in taking adequate cover with the available surroundings, all of these in various stages of visibility, as it will get dark before we finish, using the laser sighting he bought after-market and with flashlight also.

I am very proud of that young man and he is a smart kid who looks ahead in just about everything he does.

Thanks,

SAE
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:11:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By fullsizefan:
We have a six man team. All of are CCW holders. There is STILL much debate about which is the best frame. 1911 or Glock and which round is better, .45 or 9mm. I happens every where, even with Christian men!!

We have signed on to be trained by Dutch at Dutch's firearms in Belton, MO. I will let you know the cost and the effectiveness of the training.
With all the wingnuts out there we have become proactive. We are "hoping for the best and training for the worst"


It was brought by my pastor, granted we had talked about guns an other issues, like politics. He was one that approached me. So maybe you should start at the top and get his "blessing". He will know who carries and who would be a good match for your team. My pastor was ex military and ex law enforcement. I think that I got lucky in getting to the right Church!!
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:32:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By fullsizefan:
Originally Posted By fullsizefan:
We have a six man team. All of are CCW holders. There is STILL much debate about which is the best frame. 1911 or Glock and which round is better, .45 or 9mm. I happens every where, even with Christian men!!

We have signed on to be trained by Dutch at Dutch's firearms in Belton, MO. I will let you know the cost and the effectiveness of the training.
With all the wingnuts out there we have become proactive. We are "hoping for the best and training for the worst"


It was brought by my pastor, granted we had talked about guns an other issues, like politics. He was one that approached me. So maybe you should start at the top and get his "blessing". He will know who carries and who would be a good match for your team. My pastor was ex military and ex law enforcement. I think that I got lucky in getting to the right Church!!


My pastor is fine with it, but I know that he doesn't know who carries. As to who is on the team, there's a committee who will ultimately decide that. My suggestions will carry weight, but I can't just decide / appoint.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 6:37:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By hcook:
Originally Posted By fullsizefan:
Originally Posted By fullsizefan:
We have a six man team. All of are CCW holders. There is STILL much debate about which is the best frame. 1911 or Glock and which round is better, .45 or 9mm. I happens every where, even with Christian men!!

We have signed on to be trained by Dutch at Dutch's firearms in Belton, MO. I will let you know the cost and the effectiveness of the training.
With all the wingnuts out there we have become proactive. We are "hoping for the best and training for the worst"


It was brought by my pastor, granted we had talked about guns an other issues, like politics. He was one that approached me. So maybe you should start at the top and get his "blessing". He will know who carries and who would be a good match for your team. My pastor was ex military and ex law enforcement. I think that I got lucky in getting to the right Church!!


My pastor is fine with it, but I know that he doesn't know who carries. As to who is on the team, there's a committee who will ultimately decide that. My suggestions will carry weight, but I can't just decide / appoint.


hcook,

Just curious sir,

Is there reason to believe that the ministry where you attend has some real security issues, or is the role that this security team fills right now more of a precautionary measure concerning it's mission?

Thanks,

SAE

Link Posted: 9/13/2009 10:05:26 AM EST
To the best of my knowledge there are no current / active threats to our church / pastor / members. It's precautionary in response to actual past events / situations at our church, situations at local churches that didn't make the news (you'd be very surprised), and situations in churches around the country which have made the news.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 10:35:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2009 5:37:47 PM EST by SAE]
Originally Posted By hcook:
To the best of my knowledge there are no current / active threats to our church / pastor / members. It's precautionary in response to actual past events / situations at our church, situations at local churches that didn't make the news (you'd be very surprised), and situations in churches around the country which have made the news.


Yeah, I figured that in time some of these threats would begin to show themselves apparent especially at ministries in metropolitian areas first.

Sad deal indeed.

Thanks,

SAE

btw: Got that other info and I'll get back with you a little latter on.

Link Posted: 9/13/2009 10:44:55 AM EST
tag. I'm curious about this as well.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:12:08 PM EST
As many "crazies" as there are, and as many "issues" that people have, many let their guard down in church. That is where if someone really wanted to do something that would be the place that is left "unprotected". We as a church have decided that we have an obligation to be prepared to respond to what may occur. The items that we have taken into consideration are: divorce, along with custody issues. Spousal abuse, Elder abuse. When the public feels "safe", such as in a church, that is when bad things can happen.
Look at the doctor that was shot in his home church. It is not so much the people in the church, but some times an interloper can want to stir up something.
There have been cases where gays and lesbians have started to "make-out" in the service. There was one case where two gay men engaged in intercourse in the latrine. We have to be prepared to politely and firmly stop that type of behavior. It was not being violent with them, where the church is harmed, but they sue over the "code of conduct".They want to hurt churches in the pocket books as well
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 9:45:58 PM EST
What brings this to mind is the recent shooting inside the church of Dr. Tiller in Kansas. I have 2 thoughts here.

One: he was found in church on his sabbath serving his fellow members. He was predictabe enough in this regard that his killer KNEW he would be there at that time and place. Would it be so of those looking to take our own lives that we be predictable enough to be found in worship in this way.

Second: many many locations it is illegal to carry CCW in churches, temples and synagogues (sp). A church concerned with security of members and buildings is the LDS church. They do not go alone to places and they always have male participation of at least 2 or more in all activities where membership is involved in the buildings and outings. They have been attacked in places of worship and their homes in the past and have been encouraged to prepare both temporally and spiritually for things that happen. Oddly enough, they do not carry in the sanctuary or temples and they leave CCW weapons outside unless on duty law enforcement. I was told once...'trust in the Lord- and these things here become secondary'. I wouldn't reccomend that you take on an LDS church meeting though. They have ex military and law enforcement among the members- no telling what might happen! LoL Many of the high level church leaders served in combat. Go figure.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:38:24 AM EST
Good subject! I am a part-time Preacher and full time adult sunday school teacher. It is illegal in Va. to carry ccw in church unless there is a reason. Unfortunaltely we have a family, good folks who have a son who is totally off his bubble. He has threatened several church members and even beat his own dad. I found him one evening standing outside one of our windows looking in after dark. My two bull Mastiffs actually saw or heard him first. I went outside and there he stood, What are you doing i asked. "O just wondering what you were doing." This same lad has called me several time with threating calls. My wife is terrified of him and has since got herself a ccw and carries a Ruger .380. Many who come regularly to church are just waiting for him to come in the doors during services and open fire. I therefore keep with me, unknown to others a S&W 640 .38spl. I would hate to have to draw and fire on him but would if had to. This same lad 34yrs old, has been arrested many times and even instituted in a psych ward for various periods and always let out. Something I feel is bound to happen, I pray for his family and our Church. This same fellow shot arrows at his 70yr old dad because he needed money. Pray for us if you would.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 8:01:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 8:31:13 AM EST by SAE]
Originally Posted By Beezwax:
Good subject! I am a part-time Preacher and full time adult sunday school teacher. It is illegal in Va. to carry ccw in church unless there is a reason. Unfortunaltely we have a family, good folks who have a son who is totally off his bubble. He has threatened several church members and even beat his own dad. I found him one evening standing outside one of our windows looking in after dark. My two bull Mastiffs actually saw or heard him first. I went outside and there he stood, What are you doing i asked. "O just wondering what you were doing." This same lad has called me several time with threating calls. My wife is terrified of him and has since got herself a ccw and carries a Ruger .380. Many who come regularly to church are just waiting for him to come in the doors during services and open fire. I therefore keep with me, unknown to others a S&W 640 .38spl. I would hate to have to draw and fire on him but would if had to. This same lad 34yrs old, has been arrested many times and even instituted in a psych ward for various periods and always let out. Something I feel is bound to happen, I pray for his family and our Church. This same fellow shot arrows at his 70yr old dad because he needed money. Pray for us if you would.


Yes I unfortunately have been put in this same position also in my life.

Funny thing though at that point in my life I was probably somewhat more aggressive in nature than I am now.

The sheriff of our county and I actually became pretty good friends because of this situation.

I too, because of this, never went anywhere without being armed and even would mow the yard with a .357 magnum strapped on.

I can't tell you what to do in your peticular situation here because all of these situations are different as to the capabilities of one who is mentally and spiritually ill.

It is also unfortunate that our laws and the mental health system have dropped the ball concerning alot of this.

An advantage for me over this other man was living through the situation by faith.

He lived in fear but I lived by faith.

This man after being in and out of mental institutions and was once under investigation and survalance by the Texas Ranger's, for through the sheriff I was able to gain access to the reports,even though living today within ten miles of where we live has not been seen around here for quite some time.

It had something to do with him threatening a district court judge because he could'nt get to us, without a serious confrontation and knew it, and was demanding justice for himself after barging into the judge's office, and was re-incarcerated into a state hospital because of that action.

I attribute our freedom now to God's will for him to be around to show us some things.

I feel like in hind-sight that this was accomplished enough to satisfy Him about making me personally aware of how much He loved us through His protection and not what we thought we could do about the problem, and how to deal with it relying on God.

Hope this might be your case too.

Just in case though keep your barrel swabbed out.

Thanks,

SAE

Top Top