Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 1/19/2013 4:57:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 4:58:25 PM EDT by vxtip545]
Go read Romans 13:1-14 and a couple commentaries and let me know what you think. I've always been a big 2nd Amendment guy, guns and gun rights have always been a passion but as I've studied the Bible and grown in my faith I've come across many challenging teachings which have been difficult to accept, which of course comes with the territory. Never the less, the Left has been bold and clear about its ultimate agenda and the possibility of conflict over the 2nd Amend. might be inevitable. Which brings me to a point that's surely been discussed before. If the governmemt passes more anti-gun legislation and the courts uphold it yet it is what many would consider in clear violation of the 2nd then are we abligated by God to obey our oppressive pseudo-legal government or not?

I personally feel right now that the constitution is the law of the land and just as the Bible can be read and clearly understood so too the Constitution can be read and clearly understood by us lay-people. I think magazine bans, AWB, and registration are unconstitutional but it's clear both state and the federal government believe they have the right to regulate our inalienable rights, so where does that leave us? Is there a line to be drawn when we say enough with the legal protection of the Constitution to back us up or as Christians must we be obedient to the leaders and recognize that they are established by God and going against them is going against what God's established?

Discuss.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:00:08 PM EDT
People seem to fuck horses, not guns. i think we are g2g
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:00:10 PM EDT
I dont think its a religious thing at all. Rights should apply to everybody equally irregardless of personal beliefs.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:01:04 PM EDT
toss me in the fire because I am not bending my knee to an evil king
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:01:35 PM EDT
If babby Jesus didn't want me to own an AR he wouldn't have made Stoner. The end.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:13:35 PM EDT
Daniel disobeyed Darius and went to the lions den. The three Hebrew children broke the law for not bowing. The parents hid baby Moses from Pharaoh. Rahab lied to protect the Hebrew spies. The Apostles went to prison for preaching Christ in the authority of Heaven. Paul and his followers in Acts 17 did opposite to all the decrees of Caesar in order to make Jesus their King. Even Jesus lived in direct opposition of the political religious leaders of his day and went to the cross for us.

Romans 13 is a arguement by Paul and the Apostles on the institution of model government because of the troubles that Christians were getting themselves into at the time. This passage does mean to be law as you can clearly see it is not consistent with many men serving God in the Bible disobeyed, including Jesus. IMO.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:17:55 PM EDT
Sure I think everyone has rights but clearly the government doesn't mind regulating them into oblivion and a lot of our fellow Americans are complicit in their own destruction all for some food stamps and gay weddings I love my guns but as only those of us religious cooks know, God must come first, that is the issue I want to discuss.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:21:47 PM EDT
My take: I will obey mans law as long as it does not contradict Gods law.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:27:58 PM EDT
just to make things interesting. let's go back to the founding fathers. if the argument applies today, then it applied then as well. so, if we believe that the USA was founded legitimately and with the blessing of God, then at what point do a people have the right to "stand up" and fight for their rights as outlined in the constitution?

I fully believe that we as Americans, NEED to stand up and fight in the political arena for our rights. it is there that the battle must be waged. whether Christain or not, we need to be fully engaged in our politic.

I will also throw out there: as an individual Christian, I would submit that we should not kill. however, as a nation state, the bible clearly shows the legitimacy of going to war. so, with the badge of the state, we follow where it leads with a clear conscience.

thoughts and comments?
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:29:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NAKED-GUNMAN:
Daniel disobeyed Darius and went to the lions den. The three Hebrew children broke the law for not bowing. The parents hid baby Moses from Pharaoh. Rahab lied to protect the Hebrew spies. The Apostles went to prison for preaching Christ in the authority of Heaven. Paul and his followers in Acts 17 did opposite to all the decrees of Caesar in order to make Jesus their King. Even Jesus lived in direct opposition of the political religious leaders of his day and went to the cross for us.

Romans 13 is a arguement by Paul and the Apostles on the institution of model government because of the troubles that Christians were getting themselves into at the time. This passage does mean to be law as you can clearly see it is not consistent with many men serving God in the Bible disobeyed, including Jesus. IMO.


I was just reading this on WND I think, I think you make a good point to back up what Jesus so simply stated "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's". Clearly the Bible does give examples of disobedience to government for the greater good of saving lives or obeying God over men. It goes without saying that if the government orders us to worship then we must not because that belongs to God alone. I'm left wondering when does it get to the point that government is no longer acting lawfully? Our rights have already been trampled, where is the line or is there a line?
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:32:51 PM EDT
Leaders are appointed by man, not God. Man can make mistakes! Christianity has always been a battle of good vs evil, Anyone who wants to take away your ability to choose how you protect your self is evil.



Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:35:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vxtip545:
Go read Romans 13:1-14 and a couple commentaries and let me know what you think. I've always been a big 2nd Amendment guy, guns and gun rights have always been a passion but as I've studied the Bible and grown in my faith I've come across many challenging teachings which have been difficult to accept, which of course comes with the territory. Never the less, the Left has been bold and clear about its ultimate agenda and the possibility of conflict over the 2nd Amend. might be inevitable. Which brings me to a point that's surely been discussed before. If the governmemt passes more anti-gun legislation and the courts uphold it yet it is what many would consider in clear violation of the 2nd then are we abligated by God to obey our oppressive pseudo-legal government or not?

I personally feel right now that the constitution is the law of the land and just as the Bible can be read and clearly understood so too the Constitution can be read and clearly understood by us lay-people. I think magazine bans, AWB, and registration are unconstitutional but it's clear both state and the federal government believe they have the right to regulate our inalienable rights, so where does that leave us? Is there a line to be drawn when we say enough with the legal protection of the Constitution to back us up or as Christians must we be obedient to the leaders and recognize that they are established by God and going against them is going against what God's established?

Discuss.


Constitution is the authority, not man. The Constitution says as much. The President is simply the executor of legislation that is enacted by representatives elected by the people.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:37:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaBren:
Leaders are appointed by man, not God. Man can make mistakes! Christianity has always been a battle of good vs evil, Anyone who wants to take away your ability to choose how you protect your self is evil.





Christianity has never been Good vs Evil. According to the Bible, that battle has already been fought and won by Jesus. Christianity has been about following the teachings of Christ. Not what a religion says, or a clergyman, but what Jesus did and said during his time on Earth. What he taught was quite simple: Love your neighbor as yourself, put others before you, live for God, and take all things to Him, for it is by Christ's sacrifice that humans are able to have a personal relationship with God. No one else is required.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:38:41 PM EDT
I don't believe in God anyway, so I'm good.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:39:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 5:42:03 PM EDT by vxtip545]
Originally Posted By belted_guns:
just to make things interesting. let's go back to the founding fathers. if the argument applies today, then it applied then as well. so, if we believe that the USA was founded legitimately and with the blessing of God, then at what point do a people have the right to "stand up" and fight for their rights as outlined in the constitution?

I fully believe that we as Americans, NEED to stand up and fight in the political arena for our rights. it is there that the battle must be waged. whether Christain or not, we need to be fully engaged in our politic.

I will also throw out there: as an individual Christian, I would submit that we should not kill. however, as a nation state, the bible clearly shows the legitimacy of going to war. so, with the badge of the state, we follow where it leads with a clear conscience.

thoughts and comments?


I've wondered if state governments were to stand up against federal for the Constitution then that would be a government entity and so perhaps it would be right to stand up with that side and thus resistance would be legitimate rather than lone citizens. But ya, as individual people on our own and not as part of the state I can't really justify killing if it's not to save someone else. We are told to love our neighbors as ourselves and to love one another, Christ did not call us to die for the 2nd Amendment, we are here to serve the Lord. Perhaps the fact that I'm dwelling on this shows I'm missing the point? ...or that I've gotten my answer already..
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:41:42 PM EDT
As a man of faith, I don't have a definative answer. However, look at Jesus words in Luke 22:36 "... if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Guns are yesterdays swords.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:44:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vxtip545:
Go read Romans 13:1-14 and a couple commentaries and let me know what you think. I've always been a big 2nd Amendment guy, guns and gun rights have always been a passion but as I've studied the Bible and grown in my faith I've come across many challenging teachings which have been difficult to accept, which of course comes with the territory. Never the less, the Left has been bold and clear about its ultimate agenda and the possibility of conflict over the 2nd Amend. might be inevitable. Which brings me to a point that's surely been discussed before. If the governmemt passes more anti-gun legislation and the courts uphold it yet it is what many would consider in clear violation of the 2nd then are we abligated by God to obey our oppressive pseudo-legal government or not?

I personally feel right now that the constitution is the law of the land and just as the Bible can be read and clearly understood so too the Constitution can be read and clearly understood by us lay-people. I think magazine bans, AWB, and registration are unconstitutional but it's clear both state and the federal government believe they have the right to regulate our inalienable rights, so where does that leave us? Is there a line to be drawn when we say enough with the legal protection of the Constitution to back us up or as Christians must we be obedient to the leaders and recognize that they are established by God and going against them is going against what God's established?

Discuss.


if the government told us to bow to satan and proclaim him our god and reject jesus would those verses mean we should do that?


GR
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:47:13 PM EDT
My god gave me the ability to realize I am not a slave to the plantation owners and to resist them
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:47:55 PM EDT
Christian or No Christian read this: Daniels vision of the end and wrath.... Daniel CH.8.... More specific Daniel chpt. 8 verse 23..... Hmmmmmm
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:50:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Norskie:
As a man of faith, I don't have a definative answer. However, look at Jesus words in Luke 22:36 "... if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Guns are yesterdays swords.


My understanding of this verse is that it certainly makes a point of going out of ones way to obtain the sword, and it clearly is pointing to the Apostles going out after Jesus' resurrection. This verse seems to justify arming oneself for self defense yet clearly Jesus and the Apostles give us the example that if we are persecuted for the Gospel we are not to resist, or at the least not to resist government. So I don't think this makes a case for violent uprising against government. That being said, I think Christians should push for carrying weapons being protected on religious grounds because it clearly is.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:53:11 PM EDT
Leaders? Getting sick of hearing that. I don't have leaders. I have elected representatives. I'll lead myself around, thanks.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:54:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LibertarianYankee:
I don't believe in God anyway, so I'm good.


I was also lost at one time, long ago...... Christ Lives and I hope he knocks on your hearts door one more time. Know matter how dark you think it is, he can work a miracle if only you seek and say a prayer alone... demand an answer.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:55:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By greenranger:


if the government told us to bow to satan and proclaim him our god and reject jesus would those verses mean we should do that?


GR


No of course no, bowing down and worshiping belong to God alone.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:56:09 PM EDT
Make sure your church isn't part of the clergy response team.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:59:02 PM EDT
God
Country
Family

in this order
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 5:59:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LibertarianYankee:
I don't believe in God anyway, so I'm good.


Everyone has to pick a side...
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:01:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ContrarianIndicator:
Make sure your church isn't part of the clergy response team.


Article:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/160807_quell_dissent.htm

Video from KSLA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRIDNQNsUss
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:02:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NoloContendere:
My take: I will obey mans law as long as it does not contradict Gods law.


The "King" and absolute power of this country is the Constitution. Anyone that violates it, it is our responsibility as US citizens to end the violation.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:02:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 6:03:13 PM EDT by Polupharmakos]
I Corinthians 7

17 Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. 20 Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. 24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

I'm just doing my best to remain in the station I found myself in.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:04:57 PM EDT
Tim Baldwin wrote a book about this a couple of years ago that I've wanted to read. He makes the point that Christians aren't meant to blindly submit to the government, but I'd like to read it soon.
Romans 13
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:05:10 PM EDT
DUPE! If you searched back to 1644, you will see that this topic has come up before.

Samuel Rutherford wrote Lex Rex dealing with that passage, and others. Here is a summary.

His writings were a foundation of American pre-Revolutionary thought. His concepts of dual sovereigns - "lesser magistrates" are part of our constitutional system of government today.

From the summary, above:


vi. Three levels of resistance:

• “David used all three in order. He made his defence by words, by the mediation of Jonathan; when
that prevailed not, he took himself to flight, as the next; but because he knew flight was not safe in
every way, and nature taught him self-preservation and reason and light of grace taught him the
means and the religious order of these means for self-preservation, therefore he addeth a third, “he
took Goliath's sword, and gathered six hundred armed men,” and after that made use of an host. Now
a sword and armour are not horsing and shipping for flight, but contrary to flight; so re-offending is
policy’s last refuge. A godly magistrate taketh not away the life of a subject if other means can compass
the end of the law, and so he is compelled and necessitated to take away the life; so the private man, in
his natural self-defence, is not to use re-action, or violent re-offending, in his self-defence against any
man, far less against the servants of a king, but in the exigence of the last and most inexorable
necessity.” XXXI - p.160

vii. But Scripture requires passive obedience?

• In his explanation of Romans 13 he contends that this passage refers to the office of magistrate (the
magistrate in abstracto), i.e., to a person using his power lawfully. When a king acts unlawfully, he is not
a "higher power", but is acting as an ordinary man. The lawful ruler is not to be resisted because he is
not a terror to the good works but to the evil; but that ruler who persecutes the church becomes in these
acts a terror to good works, and therefore the reason in the text proves that a man who does these things
against the office is to be resisted. We are only to be subject to the power and royal authority in
abstracto, in so far as, according to his office, he is not a terror to good works, but to evil. (Clarke)
XXXIII – p.173

• but Christ was passive?
- that was unique – “this one merely extraordinary example of Christ” – XXX – p.153

• how about the early Christians?
- they only had two choices – suffer or deny Christ – they didn’t have the chance of defensive war
– XXXV – p.183

viii. Who may resist?
- individual – if King tried to force to adultery, incest or sodomy, XXXI - p.162
- lawful resistance is defensive
- estates and judges – i.e. the leaders of the people
- never argued for violent resistance by gps of private indivs nor by indivs in their private capacities
- the people are to suffer much before they resume their power
- religious oppression far more important than judicial / fiscal


Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:05:39 PM EDT
Did the Founding Fathers let themselves be subject to the governing authorities in Britain?

Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:05:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Norskie:
As a man of faith, I don't have a definative answer. However, look at Jesus words in Luke 22:36 "... if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Guns are yesterdays swords.


This. I don't think the Lord would want his creation being killed in a ditch for no gain either. I"m not handing out judgment to the "evil" or anything silly. BUT... defense of my family and others is certainly on the table.

Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:07:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 6:11:27 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
I'm pretty sure those scriptures regard a righteous government, not a conflicted one being attacked from within by socialists. It's your duty to guard yourself and your family, but not to the point of being taken to jail (judge that how you will). What use are you in jail?

The bill of rights and the constitution were inspired by God I'm sure of it, those scriptures you quoted say so. What they're doing now to destroy it, I highly doubt is the direct action of God at this time. It is however his will to allow satan to attack it and eventually subdue it (see revelations).
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:10:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 6:31:47 PM EDT by amos1909]

Originally Posted By vxtip545:
Sure I think everyone has rights but clearly the government doesn't mind regulating them into oblivion and a lot of our fellow Americans are complicit in their own destruction all for some food stamps and gay weddings I love my guns but as only those of us religious cooks know, God must come first, that is the issue I want to discuss.


I will be up front and say I am a man that tries to obey the Word in every part of my life. I believe that you might want to take a step backwards and do some history research. Go back and see what and how our founding Fathers handles this passage in their life.

Look at Corrie ten Boom, her family disobeyed the authority of the land and paid a heavy price for it. There are many of these examples in history and in the Bible for our benefit. (i.e. Midwives in Egypt, Rehab, the harlot, Daniel in the lions den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego in the fiery furnace, Ester and saving the Jews, Christ in the Temple with a whip) I could go on and on.

This is a hard question to answer, God's Word is clear on being separated from the world (2 Cor. 6:11-7:1). The way that we (as Christians) handle these situations, will reflect on our Savior and His mission. We are to have this thought in every action, thought, and word that we do. It is rough to try to accomplish this commandment and be a 2A supporter. But we have the Word and history to teach us. It is not as big of a quandary as you might think!

I'm trying to not get too religious but also state the Truth.

Edit: I had to step away for a minute so I finished my thoughts in my original post.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:11:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By belted_guns:
just to make things interesting. let's go back to the founding fathers. if the argument applies today, then it applied then as well. so, if we believe that the USA was founded legitimately and with the blessing of God, then at what point do a people have the right to "stand up" and fight for their rights as outlined in the constitution?

I fully believe that we as Americans, NEED to stand up and fight in the political arena for our rights. it is there that the battle must be waged. whether Christain or not, we need to be fully engaged in our politic.

I will also throw out there: as an individual Christian, I would submit that we should not kill. however, as a nation state, the bible clearly shows the legitimacy of going to war. so, with the badge of the state, we follow where it leads with a clear conscience.

thoughts and comments?


The idea of armed, violent conflict against the standing government is one that can give you sleepless nights.

If I sincerely believed that the idea behind gun control, cradle-to-grave reliance on the Fed Gov, etc, was good intentioned and would help me grow as a person then I would willing bend my knee when those things come to be.

If someone was to come after me to kill me for my religious beliefs alone, then I would allow them to kill me without a fight.

I do not believe that those who intend to remake our country in the image of Marxist ideals have my best interest at heart and are not going to kill me strictly for my religious beliefs, but for power and the lust for power.

Let every man sell his robe and buy a sword.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:13:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:16:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vxtip545:
Go read Romans 13:1-14 and a couple commentaries and let me know what you think. I've always been a big 2nd Amendment guy, guns and gun rights have always been a passion but as I've studied the Bible and grown in my faith I've come across many challenging teachings which have been difficult to accept, which of course comes with the territory. Never the less, the Left has been bold and clear about its ultimate agenda and the possibility of conflict over the 2nd Amend. might be inevitable. Which brings me to a point that's surely been discussed before. If the governmemt passes more anti-gun legislation and the courts uphold it yet it is what many would consider in clear violation of the 2nd then are we abligated by God to obey our oppressive pseudo-legal government or not?

I personally feel right now that the constitution is the law of the land and just as the Bible can be read and clearly understood so too the Constitution can be read and clearly understood by us lay-people. I think magazine bans, AWB, and registration are unconstitutional but it's clear both state and the federal government believe they have the right to regulate our inalienable rights, so where does that leave us? Is there a line to be drawn when we say enough with the legal protection of the Constitution to back us up or as Christians must we be obedient to the leaders and recognize that they are established by God and going against them is going against what God's established?

Discuss.


Would you have hopped on one of Hitlers scenic train rides? Pray for wisdom.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:16:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vxtip545:
Originally Posted By Norskie:
As a man of faith, I don't have a definative answer. However, look at Jesus words in Luke 22:36 "... if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Guns are yesterdays swords.


My understanding of this verse is that it certainly makes a point of going out of ones way to obtain the sword, and it clearly is pointing to the Apostles going out after Jesus' resurrection. This verse seems to justify arming oneself for self defense yet clearly Jesus and the Apostles give us the example that if we are persecuted for the Gospel we are not to resist, or at the least not to resist government. So I don't think this makes a case for violent uprising against government. That being said, I think Christians should push for carrying weapons being protected on religious grounds because it clearly is.


"Turn the other cheek" is in response to what at the time was an insult. "Turn the other cheek" does not mean let an aggressor kill you. Self-defense is perfectly legitimate. Also, the arming of the apostles was because Jesus would no longer be physically with them. The plan for man's salvation required Jesus to be imprisoned, so when he tells Paul to put away his sword - that is because it is not meant to be used AT THAT TIME. One should obey the government if it is legitimate, and is doing it's job according to God.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:18:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 6:25:38 PM EDT by MTTOMB]
Read Exodus 1:15-21
The Midwives disobeyed the Pharaoh because he was overstepping his bounds and God blessed the midwives with families of their own
I hope this helps
Romans 13 has been taken out of context many times.
Rahab also hid the spies and she is in the lineage of Jesus Matt 1:5

Also about Romans
Some people may say "Look I'm being persecuted" No your not you were speeding and you got caught. You broke the law, period the end. I think this is what Romans is saying here
Christians should set an example. However when a government becomes tyrannical or kills 55milliion babies and justifies it. That is crossing the line.

MTTOMB
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:20:41 PM EDT
Coincidence I read Romans 12-14 this morning?


Here it is boys and girls-

Start by looking at Romans 12- which are guidelines given from Paul which 12-16 are to obey the government, love your neighbors- etc, how to live every day life.....

Romans 12 17-18 "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone


Let's say for instance the 2nd amendment was abolished and here we are, abiding by the new set of rules.

Are you repaying evil for evil by shooting and killing someone because you've kept a hidden weapon and the perpetrator is committing rape against your wife or threatening you? Would everyone not agree with you by killing someone committing these acts? And lastly, Romans 12.18- there are many verses with this warning/heed/advice/realist twist on it that are separate from straight up commands. Paul could have rightly and simply said - Live at peace with everyone. period. - I'll touch on this type of twist again in a second....

Romans 13 "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God's servant for for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason."



There that little twist is again-

God, throughout the Bible, uses people for good as well as for bad. But when men use their free-will for bad, that is not the end game, they are to be overcome to show the glory of God. See Moses and every time good conquers evil an etc until the end of time. Yes the government is there- to be obeyed, but just as you and I are to be good and love our neighbors as our own family- they have been granted the authority by God and to not abuse it. Is it not greater to love our neighbor with acts of defense and protection than it is to sit idly by and wait for evil and allow it to win?

Simply put-

It is right to love and defend your friends and family with "the sword." But only God truly knows your heart if your committing murder or malice.

Do we put the line in the sand at 3 round magazines? Wait until guns are totally outlawed and now all we have are crossbows and they're now on the chopping block? Again- that's all on you, we've got a responsibility to do good too, just make sure you're right with THE MAIN MAN.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:25:11 PM EDT
Good replies thanks guys, I'll have to check the links that have been posted once I get home from work.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:26:29 PM EDT
Political leaders are established by God?

umm.....okay. OP, would you toe the line for North Korea if you were under that country's rule?
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:27:56 PM EDT
Here’s the thing about that passage and America. The Bible tells us to submit to authority. But, in America we are the authority and the government is the servant that is to submit to us. And, in another sense, the ultimate authority we are to submit to is the Constitution. The Constitution does a pretty good job of laying out who has what power in this country.

For example, the government has the power to coin money. And if Congress votes to take “in God we Trust” off of our money. Or, if they choose to put Obama on our money then that’s their right. I can petition the government (as is my right) not to do this. And I can vote against anyone who supports it. But I would have to accept the godless Obama currency as legal tender.

However, if the Government does something they have no right to do then I am under no religious obligation to obey. In fact, I have a religious obligation to resist in whatever way I practically can.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:28:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NoloContendere:
My take: I will obey mans law as long as it does not contradict Gods law.


Pretty much this...

- Clint

Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:32:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ixy:
Originally Posted By LibertarianYankee:
I don't believe in God anyway, so I'm good.


Everyone has to pick a side...

cant believe in one with out believing in the other.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:32:09 PM EDT

Are you under the impression that you MUST accept the Mark of The Beast because The Beast tells you to?

(Answer: Yeah/No).

Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:33:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 6:41:35 PM EDT by amos1909]

Originally Posted By Oakenheart:

"Turn the other cheek" is in response to what at the time was an insult. "Turn the other cheek" does not mean let an aggressor kill you. Self-defense is perfectly legitimate. Also, the arming of the apostles was because Jesus would no longer be physically with them. The plan for man's salvation required Jesus to be imprisoned, so when he tells Paul to put away his sword - that is because it is not meant to be used AT THAT TIME. One should obey the government if it is legitimate, and is doing it's job according to God.

In my understanding, the turning of the cheek was done from a point of power, not weakness. It is impossible to turn the other cheek, if you are already on the ground crying.

I try to teach this principle to my inner-city church members. It goes against most human ways of thinking!
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:34:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2013 7:07:47 PM EDT by Alaskacajun]
Originally Posted By KentuckyBryan:
http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/archives/3798

Question answered


Found this on youtube



it's an hour long though...

ETA: He starts really making his point around 27/29 minutes in...

- Clint

Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:38:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thuban:
Here’s the thing about that passage and America. The Bible tells us to submit to authority. But, in America we are the authority and the government is the servant that is to submit to us. And, in another sense, the ultimate authority we are to submit to is the Constitution. The Constitution does a pretty good job of laying out who has what power in this country.

For example, the government has the power to coin money. And if Congress votes to take "in God we Trust” off of our money. Or, if they choose to put Obama on our money then that’s their right. I can petition the government (as is my right) not to do this. And I can vote against anyone who supports it. But I would have to accept the godless Obama currency as legal tender.

However, if the Government does something they have no right to do then I am under no religious obligation to obey. In fact, I have a religious obligation to resist in whatever way I practically can.

I would agree, in a Constitutional Republic, we are the government. It is our place to stand against any illegal act
that the leader of this great nation would do/attempt. The other side of this argument would be compliance and submission, these IMHO would be wrong/sin.
Link Posted: 1/19/2013 6:40:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaBren:
Leaders are appointed by man, not God. Man can make mistakes! Christianity has always been a battle of good vs evil, Anyone who wants to take away your ability to choose how you protect your self is evil.






Well Stated....

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top