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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 9/14/2002 11:31:31 PM EST
My dept. is adding patrol rifles (one for now, more to come). I am currently leaning toward the following setup. Bushmaster RCWA3F-16 Aimpoint ML2 ARMS Swan Sleeve 38 STD ARMS Mount 22M68 Surefire M500A Anyone have any comments, especially about reliability? These things will be going in and out of the cruisers with shift change. How do you secure your weapon in the vehicle -- trunk or electric locking bracket? Let me know what you guys think about equipment, policy and procedure, and training. I have a post on the equipment exchange page about equipment... who has the best prices on this equipment as far as you know?? Thanks for your help. One more thing. My dept. will have to send me to a patrol rifle instructors class (oh darn), any recommendations?? thanks alot Byrddog
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 4:31:10 AM EST
If the gun is being hot swapped the red dot sight is a good choice, we do the same thing but we use the Reflex (no batteries) on it. blackwater offers a good IT class. You should be able to get a good deal direct from BM if the Dept buyss the gun.
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 1:52:10 PM EST
k9dpd, Good thinking, I'll check with BM for a direct price. Hopefully my dept. will shell out for Blackwater training. Thanks for reply.
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 2:15:03 PM EST
I'd steer away from the M500A for a patrol rifle. I have one (I'm not a LEO though) but here is what I've found. 1) It is heavy 2) It can be awkward to use 3) It gets in the way 4) It is fixed and can't be added/removed as needed. 5) Hard to use something as a rest to steady your shooting with that huge light on there. 6) It is probably more light than you need. [url=http://www.surefire.com/cgi-bin/main.pl?pgm=co_disp&func=displ&carfnbr=136&prrfnbr=522&sesent=0,0]Surefire 660[/url] 6V System if you really want the power of a 9V there is also a similar light like above but available in 9V. You could also mount some type of rail or rail system and use the [url=http://www.surefire.com/cgi-bin/main.pl?pgm=co_disp&func=displ&sesent=0,0&carfnbr=267]Millenium Lights[/url] by Surefire. For less money you could get the Surefire that uses the barrel clamp mount and then you can add and remove it. This also hangs the light below the barrel instead of to the side. The light on the side makes it difficult to zip your assault case shut. A 6 volt light is probably plenty of power for any patrol use. I would also imagine (I don't know much regarding vehicle racks) that it would be difficult to find a compatable rack for your cruiser that will clamp around that huge light housing. Oh that reminds me. On my rifle with the M500A I have a tac sling. The kind that has a band that wraps around the handguards and a small tab that goes through the sling loop. Well the light housing is so big that I have to but the strap around the barrel and through the front sight post. If I shoot much rapid fire and the barrel heats up then the sling will start to melt and leave bits of nylon "glued" to the finish.... they come off but it is still annoying. Just my $0.02 from a non-LEO but I hope it helps. For the best prices call Donnie at [url=http://www.sableco.net]Sableco[/url]
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 2:35:05 PM EST
I agree about the surefire I use the M-3 streamlight on all of mine, quick change and I can also use it on my pistol.
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 9:18:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2002 9:19:05 PM EST by b910]
i have a brand new DPMS M4 that i have for my patrol rifle. as far as the fit and finish, it is flawless. i have yet to have any feed/function failures, however, i only have 5-600 rounds through it. the one thing about my rifle is that it only likes quality ammo, not the cheapo plinking type (unlike my SP1, which'll take it all). i would recommend the dpms for duty based on my short term experience so far. i carry it in a locked rack in the squad between the seats with an accessible hidden release switch (gotta have it where i might need it). and since i work on the night shift, i am looking at a night vision scope, hopefully by the winter! hey k9dpd: where can i get a mount for a m3 light for my shotgun?
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 10:58:51 PM EST
Hey guys, thanks, that's the kinda info I'm looking for. I'm checking on the M-3 Streamlight and the Surefire 600 and 950 series. I like the M-3 for its size and the fact that its easy to remove, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to operate while keeping on-target. Byrddog
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 11:19:21 PM EST
I have an Colt A3 for a patrol rifle. Now, question is, are you going to continue carrying a shotgun, AND carry the rifle, or just the rifle. If just the rifle, I would consider placing the rifle in an in passenger compartment setup, either overhead or in a passenger seat mount. My department will not allow the rifle in the passenger compartment. We still carry an 870 up front, and I carry the rifle in a soft case in the trunk. I use the surefire 660 mounted to the barrel, with a pressure switch on the foregrip. It works great in that configuration. Good luck with your department, sounds like you are going in the right direction to carry rifles. AZtrooper
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 1:02:08 PM EST
Hey B910 I got all my mounts from arizona gun runners they give 10 % off to LE and ship quick,
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 1:45:17 PM EST
K9DPD, Checked with Bushmaster. They said a distributor would give a better price. So far, Davidson's has quoted me a price of $677. Also, I'm looking at the M-3 and like it for its size/weight and the ability to remove it for cleaning, range time, ect. Where do you have yours mounted (side or bottom)? Also, do you use the remote pressure tape or just the built in controls? Looks like I can get the M-3, mount and remote for about $184 if the prices are still good on www.impactguns.com website.
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 1:51:09 PM EST
We haven't decided what to do with the 870s yet. Until we get more patrol rifles, I'm sure they will stay in the cars. Long term, I would guess they will be converted to less-than-lethal. The shotguns are mounted overhead. I would like to see the dept. go with either a vertical or diagonal passenger side locking rack for the rifles. We have cages, so we don't transport prisoners in the front (although VA State Police still do). Unless I start finding reliability complaints on the streamlight M-3, I think we'll try that route. I think DarkHelmet had some good points about the larger lighting system. Thanks again, Byrddog
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 4:53:54 PM EST
In this day of litigation, you might first want to consult with a knowledgeable attorney, like one who's affiliated with the major National Associations such as Chiefs, Union, Swat, etc. Draw up a protocol, syllabus, policies, etc. covering all aspects of the application. From the first idea to the unfortunate situation of someone getting shot--good guy, bad guy, civilian; purchase criteria, trials of the various weapons, well documented reports on function, ease of use, accuracy, adaptability, ease of cleaning,maintenance, etc. Give each a breakin period of x rounds, then function and accuracy, ammo--match or special application to reduce penetration and richochet or both, do the sights stay zeroed bouncing around in a car for a month, do they stay together, does one set of mounts give a better return to zero than another if your going to switch from red dot to scope, what about cheek weld and stock fit for various sized officers, which grip gives smoothest trigger manipulation, what about mags, 5 round, 10, round, 20 or 30, mag function check and routine maintenance, alternate mags schedule, are you going with the stock trigger weight or have them professionally adjusted to a manageable yet safe poundage, any lefthanders-ambidextrous safety, special work--bore and feedramp polished, investigate possible blowback thru charging handle---change to commercial unit to solve problem, or as Tubbs and Lediker, I think it is, say and put sealer in them, the guys who don't wear glasses probably won't think about glasses and earplugs if they have to put that into use, speaking of ear muffs, is your dept. using the top numbers of 29 and 31, that seems right, so to hold OHSA, Labor, and workman's comp. at bay as far as possible. On the weapons them selves, you might want to poll the troops for ideas, then put several configurations together and get in touch with the LE rep. from each company. If you're looking at outfitting the dept., it should be no problem getting the units on a trial basis for say a month. This way you've covered all the bases so far as what you think works the best for your application, is the most reliable, is the most accurate. You may be able to do the same with ammo--gratis per mfgr. Likewise for red dots, lights, lasers, scopes, etc. Burris, Leupold, Zeiss, Swarovski, should all have LE reps with which to work for trial units, information, special pricing, and special adaptations such as a 75 or 100 yard parallex instead of 150 or a special reticle. If they'll have slings on them--do you free float the barrels. Sight them in for x yards, the trajectory is x inches hi/lo at x yards. Step back and apply anything you can think of to the liability picture. You're doing the picking and you're doing the training, guess who's butt is gonna be in the witness chair along with the chief and whoever was unfortunate enough to have a stray shot or suffer a malfunction and get shot. You've got the hostage, bystander, civilian liability on one hand and on the other you have the vicarious and fellow man and leadership position. The guys probably wouldn't sue you but don't hold your breath if a widow gets pushed by a hotshot lawyer. Another item, PTSD, Critical Incident Stress, will the debriefings and sessions be mandatory. Any hotshots on the force who might spray and pray. Psychological profiles or interviews before issuance could be another area. Then how does a cross representation of the dept. do with each one//old guys--eyes and open sights might be a problem, ladies--stock to long, mounts too high, skinny guys, fat guys, those that shoot and hunt, those who don't. What's the parent body going to do with you and the Chief so far as providing insurance and attorneys fees if you get sued as individuals as well as sued for your job. Is it a separate policy, a rider, or cash for a policy you secure. Get it in writing, have an insurance expert check it out for you, run it by an attorney who does litigation in municipal suits, have your own insurance company attorneys check it out--they should do a good job because it will save their company money. The job is not a hard one but will require time and research and testing. Don't reinvent the wheel, if some other dept has some written procedures that fit your situation, use them, modify them. So far as training, you want the best and from different disciplines so as not to expect unrealistic results from the particular weapon and regular personnel. If you haven't already, you might want to acquire the lower levels of instruction and then up to the top so that again you've got some experience with your credentials as well as a broad application of basics, safety, maintenance, etc. Like I said, the job is not hard but it encompasses a whole lot more than buying a gun because it looks good or someone recommended it. The same for ammo, scopes, lights, etc. You can put a 150.00 Tasco on it, a 600.00 Leupold, or a 1000.00 Zeiss, which best fits your needs, what are the percentages of distance, daylight/night, hot/freezing. etc. If it's night, did you compare the abilities of all 3 for contrast, resolution, twilight factor,etc., as well as testing by yourself under various lighting conditions such as streetlights, spotlight, various phases of the moon, no moon. Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 7:54:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2002 7:58:01 PM EST by 199]
BYRDDOG: A few possibilities re: training. Please note that I’m going on hearsay except for the FLETC rifle course, which I have attended. Thunder Ranch has the reputation of being the best. Both the facility and the training are usually described as being excellent. Minor concerns might be that Thunder Ranch training isn’t designed for instructors; isn’t necessarily LE oriented; and isn’t designed to be “transportable” back to your agency. [url]www.thunderranchinc.com/[/url] Smith and Wesson Academy has a five-day rifle school designed for LE instructors. I have attended a number of their courses to include their shotgun instructor course and have always been very impressed. However, I’m not sure how good their rifle training facilities are. Also, I believe a recently enacted state law makes it illegal for them to sell ammo to out-of-state residents, which may make things a pain!! [url]www.smith-wesson.com/acd/contact.htm[/url] Blackwater Lodge is in NC near the Virginia border and has both a good reputation and a good facility. IIRC, Wave (the moderator formerly know as Waverunner!) has attended their rifle course and can give you more info if you’re interested in them. [url]www.blackwaterusa.com/[/url] If you’re near northern Virginia, you might also want to check out H&K. Their training is good, though I don’t think they have too much in the way of facilities. However, they tend to be rather specialized with a strong emphasis on SWAT operations. They have both a 3-day tactical rifle course and a 5-day police rifle instructor course. [url]www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/training/mission_frameset.html[/url] FLETC also has a five day LE rifle school that you [b]might[/b] be able to get into, since occasionally vacancies are made available to state and local guys. However, I believe the entire center is really busy right now. FLETC training is great for liability purposes and no doubt would really give your chief a warm and fuzzy feeling (as opposed to a place called “Thunder Ranch”!). However, FLETC is a large, high-pressure bureaucracy with a lot of really unavoidable problems. Its firearms training is not, and never will be, cutting edge training. [url]www.fletc.gov/[/url] I don’t think they’ve got too much of a facility, but you also might want to look at Storm Mountain. They’re in West Virginia, which might be convenient for you. [url]www.stormmountain.com[/url] I’m thinking the NRA also has a Police Rifle Instructor School. To the best of my knowledge they don’t have anything, but since you’re in Virginia, you might also want to check the FBI Academy at Quantico. Don’t know if any of this helps much since the only rifle school I’ve attended you very possibly can’t get into anyway. Still, this is the best I can do. Good luck!
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 5:08:48 AM EST
199, Thanks for the reply. Yes, there is an NRA patrol rifle instructor's school. They offer the class within a couple hours of here, which of course would make my dept happy, and have a reputation for decent LEO classes. Blackwater also is not far and has a great reputation in general, but I have not talked to anyone who has taken a rifle course there. Anyone have any experience with either one of these courses??? Byrddog
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 5:33:50 AM EST
powderburner, Not to be cavalier, but civil liability is such a prominent subject in LE today, that I always take it into consideration, but never WORRY about it. (I know a few guys who can't function for fear of getting sued) Your point is taken, that it is best to minimize liability (and the instructor will almost always be named in the suit, oh joy). Having said that, the subject has been brought up with the town attorney and he is going to review, research and approve any policy which is written for patrol rifles. I have found very few references to dept policy on the subject here on the internet. I also contacted VA's Dept. of Criminal Justice Services, which regulates training here. There are no set standards for patrol rifles as there are for shotguns and sidearms. Rifles are controlled entirely by dept. policy (to include equipment, deployment, training, qualification, the whole deal). So... policy will have to be detailed and be well written. As far as the training goes, that is why I need to go to an instructor's school. I am familiar with writing lesson plans, testing and all of the things involved in teaching LE subjects. However, I need to have the info and knowledge to write this course for our dept. If anyone would be willing to send a copy of their dept's rifle SOPs, training standards, ect. I would appreciate it. Bridgewater PD Box 94 Bridgewater, VA 22815 Attn: #345 The rest of your message brings up a lot of questions, the same ones I came here with. How about some answers or pointing me in the direction to find the answers? From my research, it appears that a red dot scope (looking at Aimpoint or possibly EO Tech) will assist in making the weapon transition between shooters more accurately. However, most of this info is anecdotal. It would be great to find research from somewhere that had the resources to shoot thousands of rounds through dozens of setups with different shooters and different ammunition. You brought up the subject of blowback through the charging handle. I have heard this mentioned before, but do not have enough trigger time to know exactly what you mean or how to fix it. Could you elaborate?? I know this whole thing is going to be a lot of work, and I'm going to print off your message and use it when making my list of "things to do" while I'm putting this program together. It won't take forever, it'll just seem that way. Thanks again. Byrddog
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 6:27:07 PM EST
I have it mounted in about the 10 o clock postion and I dont use the pressure switch, it it there I dont really need it, its just so natural, I I had it on the bottom I might want one, I will email you our SOP its not much but it covers the basics, you can build on it
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 6:29:23 PM EST
shoot me an email at tharvey@duluthpd.com and I will email out sop to you
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 5:30:51 PM EST
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