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Posted: 4/19/2007 9:43:36 AM EDT
But if the girl that had called the cops on him for stalking had pressed charges and he was arrested for stalking, or if she had taken out a restraining order or stalking proctective act against him, that would have been on his criminal record.  In my state, that would have made him fail the background check.

In stalking cases, it is important to always document the perp's actions fully and always press charges.   A pattern of behavior must be established, and pressing charges sends the message that the behavior is improper.

Failing to press charges caused the background check system to be useless in this case.  Is it fair to consider that girl responsible, in some small way, in the long chain of events that led up the the VT shooting?  Would it have been possible for the police or DA to press charges for stalking if they have probable cause?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:45:40 AM EDT
[#1]
So this would've only happened if he could legally purchase weapons?
I fail to see your logic in blaming the girl.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:48:09 AM EDT
[#2]
If he couldn't buy legally he would have bought illegally, either way he would have obtained a firearm somehow.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:49:25 AM EDT
[#3]
Its always the quiet wackos who can't get laid doin' this kind of sh*t.
Rot in hell Cho boy.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:49:42 AM EDT
[#4]
The girl is in no way, shape, or form responsible by any action or omission.  Not in my book.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:50:13 AM EDT
[#5]
Drudge had been reporting that a court ruled that he was mentally ill but no one did anything about it.

If this is true then he did not legally purchase the two guns.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:53:17 AM EDT
[#6]
I agree that this may not have happened it she had pressed charges and I also agree that she should have.  But It seems to me that a lot of different people dropped the ball in this case, not just her.  If the mental hospital had done the paperwork differently, or held him longer he would not have been able to purchase the firearms.  I believe that if a person is set on doing harm with a firearm, they will find one one way or another.  I think it would be more logical to say that he should not have been allowed on campus due to previous behavior.  But more importantly CCW holders should be able to carry on campus.  I think that would have made the biggest difference.

olCountry
Owner/Operator
YourHandgun.com
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:54:05 AM EDT
[#7]
Ban girls!
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 10:43:15 AM EDT
[#8]
I guess I did not express my idea clearly.  I do not blame the girl.  The stalking case was handled by the university disciplinary system, not the criminal justice system.  Since no charges were filed, nothing came up on the background check.  The univesity is not releasing the actions taken by them in this case, but guess how effective it was?  The university basically created a "loophole" where Cho was able to avoid criminal penalties and therefore subvert the background process.  Universities often sweep crimes like this under the rug, in order to preserve thier image.  Unreported crimes help improve their crime stats.  I know this from working in a university security dept. as an undergrad.

The point is not that Cho woudn't have gotten a gun anyways.  He was planning this for weeks.  Cho was given ample opportunity (special attention from profs, access to counseling, etc.) to turn his life around, but he did not want to lose the victim image he had of himself in his head.

My point is simply that by not making sure that charges were pressed, the victim and the university subverted one of the tools that gun shops have to screen customers.  Perhaps she was pressured by the universtiy to drop it.

My point is just that victims need to report crimes and see the process through.  This applies to any situation, but VT is the most blatant example.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:13:22 AM EDT
[#9]
I guess some liberal judge over-rode the mental disorder call by the doctor.


WRONG! FOX is hammering this right now! A liberal panty waist judge over ruled the evaluation of a health care professional who said he was an imminent threat to others and himself instead of ruling him a metal defect that would have prevented the purchase of firearms. That was over a year ago. The judge let him seek out-patient care. The judge has the blood of 32 victims on his hands for 'feeling' that his decision held more merit than a mental health professional.


Might want to look at this thread:


www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=568223&page=3
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:19:13 AM EDT
[#10]
how does a non US citizen have the right to bear arms? SO what if he has a green card, he's still not a citizen
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:19:24 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
Drudge had been reporting that a court ruled that he was mentally ill but no one did anything about it.

If this is true then he did not legally purchase the two guns.


Yeah, I saw that same article. If he was ruled mentally incompented there is no why in hell he should have been allowed to get the firearm, although being ordered to order to see a thought rapists doesn't always mean you're mentally incompentent.

I'm curious if the officers who spoke to Cho about leaving the girl alone talked her into not going for a restraining order.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:20:39 AM EDT
[#12]
So he must have lied on his 4473... Making his purchase illegal.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:22:39 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
how does a non US citizen have the right to bear arms? SO what if he has a green card, he's still not a citizen


The rest of the consitution applies to non citizens so I guess we must apply the 2A to them as well.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:25:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

At the time, she only felt he was annoying but not enough of a threat to press charges.  I don't blame her.  It was her business, and she did what she felt was appropriate at the time.  I have no problem with that.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:26:59 AM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
how does a non US citizen have the right to bear arms? SO what if he has a green card, he's still not a citizen


The Second Amendment doesn't give anyone the right to bear arms.  It simply acknowledges a pre-existing, inalienable human right.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:27:52 AM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:
how does a non US citizen have the right to bear arms? SO what if he has a green card, he's still not a citizen


Same way you have the right - God-given and inalienable.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:31:12 AM EDT
[#17]
will this be the VT thread that finally creates a vortex that gathers unto itself all of the opinions bandied about?  Spinning them round and round and finally spitting out a whole coherent summary.



Magic 8-ball says- no.


On the topic, I don't think the girl bears responsibility.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:34:19 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
how does a non US citizen have the right to bear arms? SO what if he has a green card, he's still not a citizen


The Second Amendment doesn't give anyone the right to bear arms.  It simply acknowledges a pre-existing, inalienable human right.


Then I move that the protection of freedom of speach, protection from unlawfull search and seizure, and protection from cruel and unusual punishment, and  protection from discrimiation does not apply to non citizens.

If up held I can solve the illegal imagration problem quickly.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:36:06 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
So he must have lied on his 4473... Making his purchase illegal.


Yes, he lied on line F but thanks to organizations like the ACLU it is completely up to the gun buyer to divulge if they are a mental patient or not. These files are sealed and can only be viewed by a judge. Because of privacy issues, instant background checks can't even search for a simple non descript "flag" that a current mental patient trying to buy a gun.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:38:16 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So he must have lied on his 4473... Making his purchase illegal.


Yes, he lied on line F but thanks to organizations like the ACLU it is completely up to the gun buyer to divulge if they are a mental patient or not. These files are sealed and can only be viewed by a judge. Because of privacy issues, instant background checks can't even search for a simple non descript "flag" that a current mental patient trying to buy a gun.


Wow, I had no idea of that BS.

So on the forms what is verified during the check?

EDIT: On second thought do not answer that for reasons of public saftey.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:38:27 AM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So he must have lied on his 4473... Making his purchase illegal.


Yes, he lied on line F but thanks to organizations like the ACLU it is completely up to the gun buyer to divulge if they are a mental patient or not. These files are sealed and can only be viewed by a judge. Because of privacy issues, instant background checks can't even search for a simple non descript "flag" that a current mental patient trying to buy a gun.


Isn't that the way we like it

Fewer infringements on our rights and privacy = good.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:40:21 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
how does a non US citizen have the right to bear arms? SO what if he has a green card, he's still not a citizen


The US constitution only specifically restricts certain rights for non-US citizens, voting, running for President etc.

Other civil rights, freedom of religion, speech and the right to bear arms apply to all people as long as you are legally/permanently on US soil.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:42:56 AM EDT
[#23]
how does a green card make you permanant on US soil?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:43:48 AM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
.
.
Failing to press charges caused the background check system to be useless in this case.  Is it fair to consider that girl responsible, in some small way, in the long chain of events that led up the the VT shooting?  Would it have been possible for the police or DA to press charges for stalking if they have probable cause?

This is a bit of monday morning quarterbacking, but have you ever took the time and effort necessary to this.  Celeberties have the resources to hire a lawyer for this stuff.  I've met a lot of strange and odd people in my life, but none has comiitted such a heinous crime. I feel badly that these murders occurred; but let's face it, in a free society such as ours, there is little that can be done to prevent these types of rampages.  Calif's prisons are at 10X design capacity and growing, and if we put away every weird person the cost would be enormous.  The solution for treating unstable people is daunting one.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:47:51 AM EDT
[#25]
I don't think he was ever formally determined to be mentally incompetent.  This looks like an emergency order for someone who may be at risk.  I believe you would need to have a full hearing in order to be declared incompetent, which the psychologists apparently didn't believe was necessary.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 12:13:54 PM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
.
.
Failing to press charges caused the background check system to be useless in this case.  Is it fair to consider that girl responsible, in some small way, in the long chain of events that led up the the VT shooting?  Would it have been possible for the police or DA to press charges for stalking if they have probable cause?

This is a bit of monday morning quarterbacking, but have you ever took the time and effort necessary to this.  Celeberties have the resources to hire a lawyer for this stuff.  I've met a lot of strange and odd people in my life, but none has comiitted such a heinous crime. I feel badly that these murders occurred; but let's face it, in a free society such as ours, there is little that can be done to prevent these types of rampages.  Calif's prisons are at 10X design capacity and growing, and if we put away every weird person the cost would be enormous.  The solution for treating unstable people is daunting one.


I admit I am monday morning quarterbacking.  Without a critical look at the situation, however, we'll never learn anything.  Asking the police to press charges is not a lot of time and energy.  I do not know the laws of VA at all, but I do know that the police will take reports of stalking and investigate them.  Even if there wasn't enough to pinch Cho for stalking, it creates a paper trail that can be used to establish a pattern.  If the police had PC to arrest Cho, they would have.  

I think the university did not do anyone any favors (including Cho) by allowing him to avoid the consequences.  I am focusing on just this one aspect.
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