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Posted: 4/3/2001 9:34:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:40:05 AM EDT
No nation should sequester the crewmen as China has done.  Hey, we landed in their country, they get to look the plane over good.  That's to be expected.  Not allowing any communication with the crewmen is the real issue.  That's way out of bounds regardless of the overall political situation.

Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:41:29 AM EDT
But the US does hold a very nice carrot over the Chinese, access to one of the largest comsumer markets dollar wise. Just like we have bent over backwards to have access to thier billion + cosumers, you have to think they do not want to force Bush to initiate economic sanctions or deny WTO membership.
I agree Americans would be totally upset it the same thing happened to us.
Imagine if California secceded and the PRK supplied the rebels with weapons to defend themselves from our attempts to take the state back?
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:44:29 AM EDT
The economy needs a boost!  (Kidding, kidding...)
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:50:08 AM EDT
We dont really have all the information yet. Rush said on the radio today that there is a rumor of the US plane was forced to land on Chinese soil.

Yes, we would probably search the aircraft, but I think it would be VERY wrong of us to not let the other side have immediate access to the crew.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:51:28 AM EDT
"F" China.  "F" the American politicians and businessmen that have been selling out America to the Chinese for a few bucks the exact same way that they did prior to Pearl Harbor when all of our scrap iron was returned to us in spades from Japan.

I never buy Chicom.  NEVER.  Never will.  Everything you buy from China is made with slave labor - perhaps made by a priest or nun in between their beatings and rapes.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:51:49 AM EDT
Sounds like your suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" doc..... empathy for your enemy...make no mistake The Chinese Communist regime has designs on Asia
They wish to conquer- expand-control-they enslave their own what will they do to asians who are not Chinese...question is do we allow them this?...is our national security at stake? our national interests (is the business of America merely business)
What message do we wish to send..as I stated before -our entaglement with them in the globalist international business realm has compromised our obligation to our longstanding allies in Asia....our resolve is being tested. I dont believe in the validity of your analysis as the Chinese fighters have openly and dangerously flown too close to our people endangering them...this may not have been deliberate act but it was certainly overt... this could just have easily been fatal and by the grace of God it wasnt
We have been pushed and need now to push back with the appropriate level of force
such is the nature of the school yard and international politics... either that or we should just lay down and let them run over asia and enslave our friends ...not the America I fought for....cheers doc
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 10:01:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 10:08:17 AM EDT
To understand why, flip the script for a moment: Imagine a Chinese plane flying a surveillance mission off the Florida coast colliding with an Air Force F-16...
View Quote

I think that if that happened assuming it was in international airspace (if it was in US airspace I'd want to hear about phoenix missiles, not a collision) the US would have the cojones to admit our F16 pilot f'd up, small fast planes are supposed to yield to big slow ones, just like hondas and semi-trucks.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 10:10:58 AM EDT
Not psycho analysis but merely an observation an analogy if you will
you seem to me to be identifying with the enemy (analgous to captors- but you knew that didnt you?).Ill make it simple USA= good guys Communists = bad guys
If a chinese plane were doing (what you say we were doing?) supporting Cuba you can be most assured Cuban & Chinese intentions are the invasion conquering of the USA WE are trying to prevent an invasion of China into Taiwan or our other asian allies not invade China? The Chinese have openly stated their hostile intent to the USA as has communist Cuba there is a major difference between us and them our way of life is superiour to the commie way of life if you dont believe that dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out..no offence (that is our country doc not some arbitrary for the sake of arguement fictitous place) The way I was raised the USA and our form of government was considered superior to communism if the USA were able to defeat communsim and the world were one governend with a government by the people of the people and for the people the world would be a free place..if the commies get their way it wont be...so your analogy is irrelevant imo...
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 10:17:34 AM EDT
In your words "If the shoe was on the other foot"...that has us identify with the Chinese...which imo is a form of "stockholm syndrome" (or analogous to) asking us to identify in an understanding way with our enemy...the shoe may be on one foot but the other is a jackboot..
I realize you didnt write the article but presenting imo give the appearance of agreeing with the authors observation/analysis does it not?
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 10:22:21 AM EDT
We and China are not at war, and if our plane was outside Chinese airspace, we were not doing anything wrong ... whether China likes it or not. Our plane, having been damaged in what I charitably assume was an accident, should have been allowed to land there without hassle as a matter of human decency. The plane is our U.S. property, and the crew should have been allowed to remain with it and secure it until American help arrived. I'm sure this is not being realistic, but it's plain to me that the honorable thing to do was to treat the whole thing as a "time out."

If our guys were flying where they should have been, then this matter was only an accident and not an incident until the Chinese made it otherwise.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 11:40:33 AM EDT
There's no equivalency between what's happening in China NOW with the fantasy alternative universe version offered by CNN.

[b]Doc, Doc, you just gotta stop watching CNN![/b][V]

Eric (Try FOX News) The Hun
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 11:59:48 AM EDT
The Chineese wanted to get a look at our spy plane, so they probably took a calculated risk to force it to land.

Why do I think this?
The last communication with the crew after the incident was that armed soldiers were entering the aircraft.

Satellite photos show the plane sitting on the runway with racks of the gear sitting outside the plane.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 12:09:22 PM EDT
I just heard GWB's news conference.  I think his tone and message were 100% correct.  In essence he is saying we have given you the time to do the right thing, but you have not.  Return our people and our equipment.  
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 12:37:55 PM EDT
The shoe isn't on the other foot, and it is this kind of thinking that gets your country's a** kicked PDQ.  What if the US military had been thinking "Man, I don't want to kill anyone in Japan - if they had the bomb I wouldn't want them to drop it on us - lets not drop it!" during the closing days of WWII?  We would have lost many more servicemen and jeopardized our victory.  I can see why they would be pissed, but they need to either 1)Return our soldiers now or 2)Not return them and be decimated.  A country like China holding our country hostage is not an option for any reason!  If they weren't out to make trouble in the first place this whole thing would never have happened!    
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 12:39:31 PM EDT
Do not put any faith in CNN. Extremely biased in there reporting.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 2:35:03 PM EDT
Most likely the plane was forced into Chinese airspace. If we were in intl. airspace at the time, China has no claim to it. CNN is wrong (as usual).
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 2:49:12 PM EDT
How does a fighter jet force a propeller plane to land? Don't say threating to shoot it down cause everyone knows Chinese aren't dumb enough to fire on a US plane.

If the plane could have continued, you think our pilots would be stupid enough to land it in China?

I know many of you hate CNN.com as a network, but please.. forcing our plane to land in China? If our pilots could, they would have tried their best not to land on foreign land.. especially a country you're spying on.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 4:09:00 PM EDT
the news said after the collison the navy plane dropped 8000 feet before regaining control
my family knows the family of one of the crew members, hes only 26yo
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 5:44:32 PM EDT
A fighter jet forces a prop plane to land by threatening to shoot it down (which the Tiawanese said the Chinese did) and then flying close enough to the plane to cause violent air turbulance (which could cause you to lose controll of your plane) or if you came close enough you might accidently clip the other plane maybe even causing it to crash.
Ditching a plane in the water may make for a good movie but it just doesn't seem to work out in real life. Airplanes tend to come apart when they hit the water at speeds in excess of 100 MPH and then everyone dies.
CNN is not balanced news it is owned by Ted Turner and reflects his ignorant views, he has come to the opinion that since he won a yaht race and made a fortune off of TV that he is a intelectual and expert on politics the world and religon.CNN has as much to do with factual news as sesame street does with the weather report.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 5:57:23 PM EDT
Let's see, I'm a pilot with my wing and fusalage damaged. I have 23 other souls whom I'm responsible for. I can force them to parachute into the sea, I can ditch the plane at over 100knots with my structural integrity in doubt, or I can find the nearest place to put this pig down. I'm not at war, I was in international airspace when the collision occured. I can land in a country that has Most Favored Nation Trade Status.

Hmm, what I'm I going to do?

If you say anything but land the plane then I call bullsh!t.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 8:13:32 PM EDT
Thanks for some possible explaination, but what your describing is forcing the plane to crash (shooting it, causing it to lose control by air turbulance, or clipping the wing) Not forcing the plane to land at a Chinese airbase, so they can steal our technology. Verbal threats can be ignored, like I said I doubt the Chinese fighter would fire on a US plane, and even if the EP-3 is "a flying pig", it should have some basic evasive maneuver. What I'm trying to say if there is no possible way the Chinese can force our plane to land safely anywhere. The Chinese pilots could be hot-dogging and accidently flew into our plane, but there is no way he was planning to "clip our wings" and force us to land in their airbase.
This does not excuse the Chinese in detaining the flight crew and gut our plane like they have done.. That's completely wrong on their part.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 8:17:09 PM EDT
Let's see, I'm a pilot with my wing and fusalage damaged. I have 23 other souls whom I'm responsible for. I can force them to parachute into the sea, I can ditch the plane at over 100knots with my structural integrity in doubt, or I can find the nearest place to put this pig down. I'm not at war, I was in international airspace when the collision occured. I can land in a country that has Most Favored Nation Trade Status.

Hmm, what I'm I going to do?

If you say anything but land the plane then I call bullsh!t.
View Quote

Well said...

Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:07:16 PM EDT
VQ (EW) Survivor Pages
Please read the guest book!!

This shows how close these guys get when they  fly an intercept.
This is a Soviet SU 27 that intercepted a VQ EA-3B back in the late 80's.
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:17:24 PM EDT
You don't know SHIT about the P-3 aircraft. Evasive manuvers in a P-3 are along the lines of getting back to base in time to make it to happy hour.
It is a 4 engined pig that is based on the 1950's Lockheed Electra.
Do you think that C-130's, KC-135's or any other type of transport aircraft have any ACM (air combat manuvering) written into their NATOPS or DASH-1's?
I suppose that the pilot of the P-3 could of pulled all 4 engines into delta, dropped the landing gear and the flaps and fallen out of the sky like a cow off the high dive board.
Then what? Make faces at the pilot of the other F-8 as he comes back around?
Face it, we (the USA) send these guys off to gather intellegence in an unarmed, slow, heavy, old aircraft like the P-3 every day. And it's been this way for 40+ years now.
As much as I enjoy giveing P-3 aircrew members shit about flying in them, I have respect for what the EP-3 guys do.

Link Posted: 4/3/2001 10:15:43 PM EDT
Well, in fact, Soviet spyplanes entered US space many times during the Cold War and we did not force them down or shoot them down. We simply escorted them back out of US airspace. So you're wrong in your assumption, DK-Prof.
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