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Posted: 7/31/2009 6:58:38 PM EST
Ok, so is it possible to do so in a car, and does it hurt the car not to use the clutch?
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 6:59:46 PM EST
It's called speed-shifting. Make sure your engine revs are moving at the same speed as the transmission, and it should mesh. Don't force it.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:00:22 PM EST
While it is possible, it is hard on synchronizers.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:00:51 PM EST
Yes - it is possible
I do not believe it hurts anything - If you get it right
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:01:39 PM EST
It can be done, but damages your syncromesh (I think that is the right term). Tractors are meant to "float" not cars.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:02:05 PM EST
would you do this in a modern car or an older car, or does it matter?
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:02:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2009 7:06:57 PM EST by crossedsabres]
Originally Posted By hobbsar:
While it is possible, it is hard on synchronizers.


Yep, not something that should be done in a car. It eats the synchros, the big trucks have crashboxes in them and floating is actually better on everything than the full engagement of the clutch.

ETA: to avoid confusion, I think I should have said full clutch pedal engagement or the total separation of the clutch from the flywheel. Now I have a 3/4 ton Dodge with a Cummins and the NV4500 and I do it occasionally. But a diesel has a certain split that is repeatable easily, in my truck, hold gear to 2000 to 2250 feel her loosen up, drops revs to 1450 or there abouts and let truck pull the gear in by the dogs. You do it enough, you can just feel the stick tell you when to shift.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:02:39 PM EST
It is possible but will probably harm the transmission over the long term.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:02:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By forestallflame:
Ok, so is it possible to do so in a car, and does it hurt the car not to use the clutch?

Not if you do it right. The dogs on the shift collar engage the dogs on the synchronizer, as long as the synchros are rotating at the same speed as the shifter collar, there will be no wear. But you have to match the speed, not too hard to do on downshifting but upshifting, the input shaft/crank (tied together by the clutch) takes time to slow down.

The clutch is sized for the load on the engine, the synchros are sized for the inertial load of the input shaft.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:03:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2009 7:03:20 PM EST by jdessell]
Originally Posted By titansfan:
Yes - it is possible
I do not believe it hurts anything - If you get it right


This. Personally don't se the point in it though. You have to synchronize your speed and revs. You'll feeel it when you get used to it. I think it was really more useful to women though since they have a knack for fucking up trannys and have a hard time learning stick.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:03:06 PM EST
I used to do it in my car and I still do it in my motorcycle.

I say that if it goes in smothly and quick, you don't need to clutch it.

It takes a great feel for the certain automobile or motorcycle, but I think it is safe for the transmition if done correctly.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:03:07 PM EST
You'll appear a lot cooler if you call it "double-clutching"
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:04:05 PM EST
truckers dead man shift all the time. it takes some practice but once you know the vehicle its fairly simple..
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:06:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By forestallflame:
would you do this in a modern car or an older car, or does it matter?


I have tried it in newer and older cars and it works, but I refrained from it because it can damage them. Their not made for that.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:08:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By greatwhite:
Originally Posted By forestallflame:
would you do this in a modern car or an older car, or does it matter?


I have tried it in newer and older cars and it works, but I refrained from it because it can damage them. Their not made for that.


Also, some are easier than others. My Toyota, for example, does not like it very much, but my Saab was fine with it (Rust in Peace).
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:10:08 PM EST
You can do it, but it's hard on the gears.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:18:39 PM EST
I drove home 600 miles w/o a clutch, time your stop lights, start in gear, feel the mesh.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:21:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
You can do it, but it's hard on the gears.


hard on the gears if done incorrectly.

if you do it right, it works fine.


i no-shift clutch on my bikes as much or more often than i use the clutch.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:23:35 PM EST
I do it 100 times a day.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:29:38 PM EST
let off the gas, put some pressure toward the gear you're shifting up to, should slip right in.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:32:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zack3g:
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
You can do it, but it's hard on the gears.


hard on the gears if done incorrectly.

if you do it right, it works fine.


i no-shift clutch on my bikes as much or more often than i use the clutch.

Fairly rare for a car to have a sequential though...
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:33:00 PM EST
Is that the same as heel and toe shifting?
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:35:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By greatwhite:
It can be done, but damages your syncromesh (I think that is the right term). Tractors are meant to "float" not cars.

+1

Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:35:18 PM EST
I've done it before. The transmission will have a little free play when you let off on the gas and if you shit at the right point its not a problem, but its not real smooth either. I had a 280zx and the slave cylinder went out about 100 miles from home and made it back without the use of the clutch. . Red lights were a bitch. At just the right point I had to start the car in gear when the light turned green. At each light/stop you have to kill the engine because you can't just put it in first while running. On the same car the water pump bearings when out about 30 miles from home. I took a piece of glass off the side of the road and cut the belt off and made it home. I'd start the car and drive to about 70 MPH, shut the key off, and coast a couple of miles, then restart and repeat. The engine did get a little warmer than usual, but I stopped a couple times and let it cool a half hour or so. Being a poor student it beat paying a tow truck.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:36:36 PM EST
Won't harm a bike transmission, unless you mismatch rpm and speed terribly.
Bikes have constant mesh transmissions.
I know of no car that uses a constant mesh tranny.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:38:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By Barrelburner:
I do it 100 times a day.

I do it a helluva lot more than that......2 million miles worth. Funny thing was,when I was OTR,after 8-10k miles on the road,jumping into the car,everything was so...wierd.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:42:41 PM EST
Used to do it all the time on my Rover SD1.
All i had to replace was the transmision.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 7:44:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2009 7:54:47 PM EST by Burntrubber87]
Originally Posted By Zack3g:
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
You can do it, but it's hard on the gears.


hard on the gears if done incorrectly.

if you do it right, it works fine.


i no-shift clutch on my bikes as much or more often than i use the clutch.


Bike trannies are alot different than car trannies. Most bike trannies you can stay on the gas and smash it into the next gear and it won't mind. But you're still right. If you float gears the right way, it won't hurt.
Video fo a 350Z with a sequential gearbox or "dog box"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9knNido7Aj0
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:11:34 PM EST
This comversation is interesting. I started driving a manual transmission at the age of 27 years. Before my use was limited to a few toyota light trucks and a ford 1t flatbed 4x4 with big tires, on the farm. It was crucial to clutch before braking with the ford.
A few weeks ago I learned you can start a manual jeep by rolling it down hill, without using the normal start. Letting off the clutch in a certain gear did it. It was kind of a put put put before starting though . its interesting what you learn new everyday.

Anyway, can I do this in a jeep rubicon, 06. its not stock.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:12:12 PM EST
I did in my Miata all the time...gotta know what you're doing.

HH
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:14:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By jhud:
This comversation is interesting. I started driving a manual transmission at the age of 27 years. Before my use was limited to a few toyota light trucks and a ford 1t flatbed 4x4 with big tires, on the farm. It was crucial to clutch before braking with the ford.
A few weeks ago I learned you can start a manual jeep by rolling it down hill, without using the normal start. Letting off the clutch in a certain gear did it. It was kind of a put put put before starting though . its interesting what you learn new everyday.

Anyway, can I do this in a jeep rubicon, 06. its not stock.


I'm pretty sure you can push start just about anything with a stick shift. Even a tractor trailer.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:16:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2009 8:18:05 PM EST by www-glock19-com]

Originally Posted By RAINBOW6:
Is that the same as heel and toe shifting?

no heel and toe is when you turn your foot sideways so you can run all 3 pedals
you match the revs to your speed when you shift so as to not shock the tires which are at the limits of adhesion

or matching rev for a non synchro gear box so I guess it would work for what we are discussing
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:16:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By TooBigToFail:
You'll appear a lot cooler if you call it "double-clutching"

Double clutching is different than not using the clutch at all. Double clutching refers to using the clutch twice per shift, you pause for a split second in neutral, release the clutch for a spit second, then push it back in and complete the shift.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:20:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By Barrelburner:

I'm pretty sure you can push start just about anything with a stick shift. Even a tractor trailer.


It can be done on auto's that have a Torque converter lockup switch, too.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:21:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Barrelburner:
Originally Posted By jhud:
This comversation is interesting. I started driving a manual transmission at the age of 27 years. Before my use was limited to a few toyota light trucks and a ford 1t flatbed 4x4 with big tires, on the farm. It was crucial to clutch before braking with the ford.
A few weeks ago I learned you can start a manual jeep by rolling it down hill, without using the normal start. Letting off the clutch in a certain gear did it. It was kind of a put put put before starting though . its interesting what you learn new everyday.

Anyway, can I do this in a jeep rubicon, 06. its not stock.


I'm pretty sure you can push start just about anything with a stick shift. Even a tractor trailer.



A lot of newer manual tranny cars were engineered to prevent starting by rolling it in gear.....safety concerns etc. etc.

Just like you used to be able to "jump" a car out of a ditch by hitting the starter while the car was in gear.
Their is an interlock now that prevents you from doing that also......though Jeep was smart and made it possible to
disengage the interlock on the wrangler series so you could "jump" a jeep using the starter.




Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:21:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By MattyMattel:
Originally Posted By Barrelburner:
I do it 100 times a day.

I do it a helluva lot more than that......2 million miles worth. Funny thing was,when I was OTR,after 8-10k miles on the road,jumping into the car,everything was so...wierd.

After driving a tractor-trailer for a week or two I'll catch myself doing it in my pickup without even thinking about it.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:22:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By RAINBOW6:
Is that the same as heel and toe shifting?

no heel and toe is when you turn your foot sideways so you can run all 3 pedals
you match the revs to your speed when you shift so as to not shock the tires which are at the limits of adhesion

or matching rev for a non synchro gear box so I guess it would work for what we are discussing

BTW heel and toe is damn hard to do with a size 15 foot
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:38:41 PM EST
I never thought about it but heal and toe would be on an uphill stop, left heel on brake, left toe on clutch, right toe on gas.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:45:39 PM EST
Nah..heel-toe is for rev-match downshifting. if you can't drive a 5 speed or are driving something heavy on a hill, you pull up the e-brake and load up the clutch, release the e-brake.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:47:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By hobbsar:
While it is possible, it is hard on synchronizers.



It wears the shift forks too....
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:49:29 PM EST
I had an old Porsche... about 50 miles from home, the clutch took a shit (throwout bearing ripped out of the pressure plate). I drove that bitch all the way home without a clutch. Luckily only had to stop three times, and had a strong battery.

Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:49:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2009 8:51:42 PM EST by AJE]
I could go up through the gears without touching my clutch when I had my Jeep Cherokee. I could almost do it coming back down as well but it would usually grind coming from 4th to 3rd.

I had a lot of miles in that truck before I could do it smoothly, though.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:51:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By 3rdpig:

Originally Posted By TooBigToFail:
You'll appear a lot cooler if you call it "double-clutching"

Double clutching is different than not using the clutch at all. Double clutching refers to using the clutch twice per shift, you pause for a split second in neutral, release the clutch for a spit second, then push it back in and complete the shift.



And a trans with syncros doesn't NEED to be double-clutched..... the technique was used for every shift in the old, non-syncro days.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 8:57:21 PM EST
This thread needs more Dog Box.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 9:07:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2009 9:10:28 PM EST by Ripak]
Originally Posted By LadyMacBeth:
I drove home 600 miles w/o a clutch, time your stop lights, start in gear, feel the mesh.

Really. I'm sure you made it 600 miles, but you did not make it there without the clutch (whatever a clutch is).

Now, without depressing the pressure plate and cranking the starter while in gear I could see you doing this.

Link Posted: 7/31/2009 9:20:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2009 9:21:06 PM EST by Burntrubber87]
Originally Posted By GhostRing:
This thread needs more Dog Box.

I agree. Action starts at about 1:00..its a pretty serious setup..listen to it grind in and out of gears, but when its haulin ass is shifts SUPER fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oWE5b4sxms
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 9:20:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ripak:
Originally Posted By LadyMacBeth:
I drove home 600 miles w/o a clutch, time your stop lights, start in gear, feel the mesh.

Really. I'm sure you made it 600 miles, but you did not make it there without the clutch (whatever a clutch is).

Now, without depressing the pressure plate and cranking the starter while in gear I could see you doing this.



I did that with a fire engine once for a bet, started in gear and rolled onto and off a curb to get it into reverse and back it into the station without having ever touched the clutch.





Link Posted: 7/31/2009 9:21:37 PM EST
Its more trickier on a car. On a bike its easier to shift without pulling the clutch in.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 9:23:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By forestallflame:
Ok, so is it possible to do so in a car, and does it hurt the car not to use the clutch?


Yes
Not if you know what your doing

Link Posted: 7/31/2009 9:34:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By K2QB3:
Originally Posted By Ripak:
Originally Posted By LadyMacBeth:
I drove home 600 miles w/o a clutch, time your stop lights, start in gear, feel the mesh.

Really. I'm sure you made it 600 miles, but you did not make it there without the clutch (whatever a clutch is).

Now, without depressing the pressure plate and cranking the starter while in gear I could see you doing this.



I did that with a fire engine once for a bet, started in gear and rolled onto and off a curb to get it into reverse and back it into the station without having ever touched the clutch.



I drove in LA making delivery's without the linkage to depress the pressure plate. I know it can be done. I got the CDL to prove it.
I was just playing with others words.


Link Posted: 7/31/2009 9:38:33 PM EST
I guess my question is... why would you?
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