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Posted: 7/19/2017 9:22:45 AM EDT
Thinking about getting my pilots licence and going to become an airline pilot. Would be a lot of sacrificing (like A LOT!!) for 3-4 years, and a big loan for school, but is it worth it? Anyone that knows me knows my passion for flying and aviation. Just don't know if this is a smart move because of where I am in life...house, kid, wife to support and a huge loan to pay back. Plus the fact that I have an established career now making decent money (60k).
Any input from pilots here to help me on my decision would be appreciated.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 9:43:47 AM EDT
[#1]
In the past hiring climate it took me 10 years to break 60k, now it can be done in as little as 3 if you really bust your ass.  I earned my private when I was 25 and my ATP at 28, 30-33 is doable but risky.

Lets be clear, it's a long row to hoe and it's not pretty at times but it sure is fun.

If your family is ok with moving to chase jobs, go for it...(please don't be the guy who asks other pilots for advice but refuses to grab a branch when it's extended to you.)
If you have the savings to not take food out of the mouth of your child...
If your spouse is capable of running the show while you're gone 18 days a month...
If you can handle the stress of jeopardy events twice a year which could make your paycheck vanish...
If you're ok with hotels, crew meals, airport shuttles, and endless delays...
If you can complete the training...

and the biggest one:
If you can pass and hold a first class medical...

Go for it.  The office views simply cannot be beat.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 9:55:04 AM EDT
[#2]
first class medical is a must...before you do anything.  Personally I would keep my current career and get my private and instrument.  You might find out it is not for you.  After that...as long as the so is on board, jump in the deep end and go for it.  The career opportunities have never been as good as they are right now.  6 or so years ago I would not have recommended anyone to go into aviation as salaries had been stagnant for over a decade.  That has changed, six digit salary is easily obtainable in the corporate/charter world as there is a demand for experienced pilots, can't speak for the airlines.  Building time will suck, long hours, all night, gone from home a lot but it pays off in the end.
My office:

Attachment Attached File
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 10:08:30 AM EDT
[#3]
My replies in red.
Thanks for the response.


In the past hiring climate it took me 10 years to break 60k, now it can be done in as little as 3 if you really bust your ass.  I earned my private when I was 25 and my ATP at 28, 30-33 is doable but risky.

Lets be clear, it's a long row to hoe and it's not pretty at times but it sure is fun.

If your family is ok with moving to chase jobs, go for it...(please don't be the guy who asks other pilots for advice but refuses to grab a branch when it's extended to you.) I live in the DFW area so I was hoping to get on with Envoy and flow through to AA. I know nothing is guaranteed but that was my plan. I also do not have a 4 yr degree and they don't require one with the flow through to AA. But other than that I have not thought about moving.
If you have the savings to not take food out of the mouth of your child...My wife would continue to work as I get my training and ratings. Would get a loan big enough to supplement my salary for the 9 months of training. Then when I get that I was going to go the ATP flight school route and get my CFI and do that to get paid (very little from what I hear) and build time.
If your spouse is capable of running the show while you're gone 18 days a month...She been asking to be a stay at home mom for some time now.
If you can handle the stress of jeopardy events twice a year which could make your paycheck vanish...pretty sure I can but never know unless your put into the situation. Preparation is everything.
If you're ok with hotels, crew meals, airport shuttles, and endless delays...I love to travel, my wife not so much.
If you can complete the training...Heard its really hard, but nothing good is easy. Been fortunate enough to be around private jets for most of my life. Dad was avionics guy. Taught myself auto-cad, land surveying and other things. I have the dedication.

and the biggest one:
If you can pass and hold a first class medical...I have MVP that prevented me from getting clearance in the military but I have heard the FAA is not as strict as the Mil. Its never affected my day to day activities and I played tennis throughout my life. Never even knew I had it till I tried to be a load master for the AF.
What is a first class medical? Why is that hard to hold?


Go for it.  The office views simply cannot be beat.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 10:16:03 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
first class medical is a must...before you do anything.  Personally I would keep my current career and get my private and instrument.  You might find out it is not for you.  After that...as long as the so is on board, jump in the deep end and go for it.  The career opportunities have never been as good as they are right now.  6 or so years ago I would not have recommended anyone to go into aviation as salaries had been stagnant for over a decade.  That has changed, six digit salary is easily obtainable in the corporate/charter world as there is a demand for experienced pilots, can't speak for the airlines.  Building time will suck, long hours, all night, gone from home a lot but it pays off in the end.
My office:

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/112961/IMG-4382-257792.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/112961/IMG-3986-257789.JPG
View Quote
Nice a Challenger 600! Been around corporate jets my whole life almost. This was what I wanted to do originally but I don't know if I would make as much doing this as the airlines. My dad has tried to talk me out of doing this at all because hes been around it so long and has seen the pilots get treated like crap and they are always at the beck and call of some a-hole millionire (his words). But to me their is something so cool to fly a private jet to remote places.
You don't need an ATP for private charter, or a first class medical do you? (see above post for reasoning, MVP unsure if I will pass)
If you dont mind me asking what is life like of a charter pilot? Benefits? Cool places you've been?
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 10:28:05 AM EDT
[#5]
I can haz pilot shortage thread?
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 10:35:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Nice a Challenger 600! Been around corporate jets my whole life almost. This was what I wanted to do originally but I don't know if I would make as much doing this as the airlines. My dad has tried to talk me out of doing this at all because hes been around it so long and has seen the pilots get treated like and they are always at the beck and call of some a-hole millionire (his words). But to me their is something so cool to fly a private jet to remote places.
You don't need an ATP for private charter, or a first class medical do you? (see above post for reasoning, MVP unsure if I will pass)
If you dont mind me asking what is life like of a charter pilot? Benefits? Cool places you've been?
View Quote
It is a 601 (different engines than a 600, the lycomings on the 600 suck)  We will have a 300 by the first of next year I am told.  The pay rises much faster in corporate but tops out sooner.  I have several buds who fly for the regionals, its not for me.  The guy I fly for is not an A-hole, I have flown for some in the past.  I generally know my schedule a week in advance.  When we are busy I am gone 3-4 days at a time, fly to wherever their business that week is and hang out in the city.  When they go on vacation, I go to cancun or wherever and hang out at a resort till time to come home.  My current employer we generally stay in the continental US other than Bahamas, Cancun, or maybe Toronto.  With previous employers I have been to Ireland and the Czech Republic, Japan, and China.  I flew air ambulance before that and have been to pretty much every country in North, South, and central America.
An ATP is required for part 135 charter but not 91 corporate.....but the insurance company want you to have it either way.  What is MVP?


Pilot shortage, pilot shortage, pilot shortage, pilot shortage!!!!!!!(just aggravating someone)
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 10:52:50 AM EDT
[#7]
Looked up MVP, according to what I found it may not be disqualifying.  It will likely need a waiver, and several tests/reports from your cardiologist....plus jumping through FAA hoops could take a few months.  I would definitely start with the medical tho.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 10:54:48 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


It is a 601 (different engines than a 600, the lycomings on the 600 suck)  We will have a 300 by the first of next year I am told.  The pay rises much faster in corporate but tops out sooner.  I have several buds who fly for the regionals, its not for me.  The guy I fly for is not an A-hole, I have flown for some in the past.  I generally know my schedule a week in advance.  When we are busy I am gone 3-4 days at a time, fly to wherever their business that week is and hang out in the city.  When they go on vacation, I go to cancun or wherever and hang out at a resort till time to come home.  My current employer we generally stay in the continental US other than Bahamas, Cancun, or maybe Toronto.  With previous employers I have been to Ireland and the Czech Republic, Japan, and China.  I flew air ambulance before that and have been to pretty much every country in North, South, and central America.
An ATP is required for part 135 charter but not 91 corporate.....but the insurance company want you to have it either way.  What is MVP?


Pilot shortage, pilot shortage, pilot shortage, pilot shortage!!!!!!!(just aggravating someone)
View Quote
As I typed 600 I was saying I bet it is a 601 :)
Yes there are some people that are not a-holes out there and are pretty cool. My dad ran into a guy that would let his pilot take his family on vacation with the airplane once a year. Pretty cool perk.
Ok so its just best to get the ATP so I am covered. Insurance? Pilots need insurance or is that for the plane?

MVP is Mitral Valve Prolapse. it s a condition in which the two valve flaps of the mitral valve do not close smoothly or evenly, but instead bulge (prolapse) upward into the left atrium. It does not increase the risk of heart attack, death, or other heart problems. Mitral valve prolapse is the most common cause of mitral regurgitation. That's a condition in which some blood flows backward through the mitral valve with each heartbeat.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 10:57:07 AM EDT
[#9]
Flying seems to be, at least to me, one of those things that if you didn't want to do it when you were 8 and did do it, one way or another, as soon as you were able, then it's not for you.

I have a couple of friends in the industry and it is far from as glamorous as it appears from the outside looking in.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 10:58:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Looked up MVP, according to what I found it may not be disqualifying.  It will likely need a waiver, and several tests/reports from your cardiologist....plus jumping through FAA hoops could take a few months.  I would definitely start with the medical tho.
View Quote
Gonna schedule that for next week to see if this is even an option.
Just really scared to jump in and get into debt that much. The only debt I have is my house and car. Everything else is paid for. But I know that I would love what I do and I could afford to pay that all off in the long run. Just scary to start all over.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 11:01:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Personally after getting the medical cleared up, I would keep my current job and bust out a private and instrument in my spare time.    It is a lot of $$$ but not the 55-70k an ATP is going to cost.  Some people find out it is not for them and that way you can limit your debt.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 11:04:01 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Flying seems to be, at least to me, one of those things that if you didn't want to do it when you were 8 and did do it, one way or another, as soon as you were able, then it's not for you.

I have a couple of friends in the industry and it is far from as glamorous as it appears from the outside looking in.
View Quote
I was never able because of the money situation and my dad not really wanting me to do it. On top of that when I graduated high school I wanted to be a pilot but didn't because 9/11 happened and no one was flying, Airlines were furloughing pilots, I would have never gotten a job at that time. Now just seems to be a good time to do it and I (think) I have the means to do it.
But yes I have heard that once your in its not all it's cracked up to be. But to me flying is awesome and I think that would outweigh anything else.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 11:08:09 AM EDT
[#13]
It's not all its cracked up to be but do you know what the difference between a pilot and a jet engine is?  The jet quits whining at the gate.  
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 11:27:54 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Personally after getting the medical cleared up, I would keep my current job and bust out a private and instrument in my spare time.    It is a lot of $$ but not the 55-70k an ATP is going to cost.  Some people find out it is not for them and that way you can limit your debt.
View Quote
I will look into doing that. Was going to just go to this school and get everything I needed done, https://atpflightschool.com/airline-career-pilot-program/
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 11:30:03 AM EDT
[#15]
Bunch of glorified bus drivers.  Keep your day job fly for fun.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 1:37:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Just like everyone else has said, make sure you can hold the first class medical first.

I'd say the big thing you have to ask yourself, how much are you willing to be away from home?

At the airlines seniority is everything.  It determines your monthly schedule, when you get your vacation, what seat in what airplane you fly, and your pay.  When you start out, you will be on the bottom of the list.  You move up either via growth of the airline, or guys senior to you retiring, or leaving.  When you upgrade to captain, if you take the first opportunity, you will go to the bottom of the captains list again, and if you were to flow to AA, you would start out once again at the bottom.

On the bottom of the list, you will be on reserve, that is on call.  You will only know your days on and days off, but not what you will be doing.  A typical reserve schedule is five days on, two days off, with one block of three or four days off each month. At Envoy you have to be able to be at the airport in two hours from when they call you.  If you live in DFW, and you can get based there, not that bad.  If you get based in LGA/MIA/ORD, and choose to continue to live in DFW, that means commuting to a crash pad.  Where you will enjoy living with a dozen or more of your new friends.  Many days, you will have to commute to your base the day before you start reserve and/or won't be able to get home the last day you are working, so you may burn half of your day off getting back.  If you are willing to move close to where you are based, it's a much better quality of life on reserve.

Also plan on working most, if not all holidays, since the senior people will bid those off.  When your junior, forget about having vacation over the holidays, or during the summer, since again they go senior.  Also, at most airlines they can work you into your days off, so it's difficult at times to make definite plans.

I don't say all that to ry and talk you out of it, just know (and make damn sure your wife understands fully) what your getting into.

Just shy of 30 years ago I started with one of the commuters that became the original American Eagle, that became Envoy, and now I'm at mainline.  I suffered through the "lost decade" after 9/11.  I still wouldn't trade most of it for anything else, but it was much easier to tolerate reserve/commuting etc when I was younger than it is now.

It's a great job, but the lifestyle isn't for everyone.  Life at the top of the seniority list is very good, but at the bottom, not so much.


One of the nicer crash pads I've lived in, this one is near LGA.


Link Posted: 7/19/2017 3:03:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Go get the First Class medical done.  Get the EKG done even though it's not required for your age  (first one comes at 35).  I did this at age 29 because of heart problems that run in the family.  I was concerned I wouldn't pass it and didn't want to quit my day job before I quit to flight instruct full time.  Instructed form age 30 to 32.  Got hired at a regional out west.  Upgraded just under 4 years.  I haven't had the wonderful career that many have had on here, but the least I've made in since upgrade 13 years ago is 93K.  I'll do about 135-140K this year.  And I'm home almost every day since I live in domicile.  ( only 3 overnights in a hotel over the last 12 months.)

How much flying have you done?   I wouldn't quit my day job until you've nearly got the CFI done.  It might be hard with you r current job and take a little longer, but you'll screw yourself financially without the money coming in.  Taking out 100K in loans is just a terrible idea.   Fly twice on Saturday and Sunday and once or twice after work during the week if need be.  Take 2 weeks of vacation and knock out the private and another two weeks to knock out the instrument.  Fly the cheapest aircraft you can to build time and keep the cost down.

Commuting just sucks.

You will spend a lot of time away from home and your family.  You will miss birthdays and holidays.  Call in sick for the anniversary if need be.  Don't tell Envoy what that date is.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 4:04:16 PM EDT
[#18]
And what's your backup plan in Envoy doesn't hire you?  Or it takes years to get based out of DFW?

Rumor has it that SkyWest is getting 20 or so CRJ900s configured with just 70 seats based out of DFW for AA.
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 4:54:14 PM EDT
[#19]
I'd say go for it. Like everyone else has said, get your first class medical first so you're not waisting your time and money.

I originally started flight school in 2005 to 2008. Did my private, instrument, multi commercial.

I got divorced a year and a half ago and my parents knew I wanted to get back into so they offered to help me finish. Got my single-engine commercial add-on at the end of December and now i'm working on my CFI. I'll be 35 in a couple of months so I feel a little late to the game myself but I have a lot of time and money invested into it so I am going to finish. Not to mention I love flying.

Just be aware that it is expensive. I'm paying $500 a month for my loan that I got back in 2005. Thankfully I just got below the $40,000 mark

Good luck!
Link Posted: 7/19/2017 11:19:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It's not all its cracked up to be but do you know what the difference between a pilot and a jet engine is?  The jet quits whining at the gate.  
View Quote
Difference between an F-16* pilot and God?



God doesn't imagine he's an F-16 pilot.



* Old joke; insert modern fighter here...and the Viper Jocks are now flying UAVs.
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 2:41:13 AM EDT
[#21]
I could speak with you you and your wife for 15 minutes, and determine if it's worth it.   I'm serious.   IM me if interested.
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 5:19:53 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I could speak with you you and your wife for 15 minutes, and determine if it's worth it.   I'm serious.   IM me if interested.
View Quote
This is the best advise in the whole thread.  You should take Bill up on the offer OP.
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 8:54:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



This is the best advise in the whole thread.  You should take Bill up on the offer OP.
View Quote
Done!
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 9:05:41 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Just like everyone else has said, make sure you can hold the first class medical first.

I'd say the big thing you have to ask yourself, how much are you willing to be away from home?

At the airlines seniority is everything.  It determines your monthly schedule, when you get your vacation, what seat in what airplane you fly, and your pay.  When you start out, you will be on the bottom of the list.  You move up either via growth of the airline, or guys senior to you retiring, or leaving.  When you upgrade to captain, if you take the first opportunity, you will go to the bottom of the captains list again, and if you were to flow to AA, you would start out once again at the bottom.

On the bottom of the list, you will be on reserve, that is on call.  You will only know your days on and days off, but not what you will be doing.  A typical reserve schedule is five days on, two days off, with one block of three or four days off each month. At Envoy you have to be able to be at the airport in two hours from when they call you.  If you live in DFW, and you can get based there, not that bad.  If you get based in LGA/MIA/ORD, and choose to continue to live in DFW, that means commuting to a crash pad.  Where you will enjoy living with a dozen or more of your new friends.  Many days, you will have to commute to your base the day before you start reserve and/or won't be able to get home the last day you are working, so you may burn half of your day off getting back.  If you are willing to move close to where you are based, it's a much better quality of life on reserve.

Also plan on working most, if not all holidays, since the senior people will bid those off.  When your junior, forget about having vacation over the holidays, or during the summer, since again they go senior.  Also, at most airlines they can work you into your days off, so it's difficult at times to make definite plans.

I don't say all that to ry and talk you out of it, just know (and make damn sure your wife understands fully) what your getting into.

Just shy of 30 years ago I started with one of the commuters that became the original American Eagle, that became Envoy, and now I'm at mainline.  I suffered through the "lost decade" after 9/11.  I still wouldn't trade most of it for anything else, but it was much easier to tolerate reserve/commuting etc when I was younger than it is now.

It's a great job, but the lifestyle isn't for everyone.  Life at the top of the seniority list is very good, but at the bottom, not so much.


One of the nicer crash pads I've lived in, this one is near LGA.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/nimslow/11-25-14/IMG_20120418_065933_zps6kokwkit.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/nimslow/11-25-14/IMG_20120418_070104_zpsn7dofndf.jpg
View Quote
Thank you for the info!

I have heard that seniority is what rules the airline world and I am willing to work my way up. I have done it for 10 years where I am at now and I've been a department manager for almost 3 years at my company. Hard work is not a weakness of mine.

I was really hoping to get on with envoy as I do not have a 4yr degree and it would allow me to flow though (eventually) to AA. Do they assign a home base when you're hired or do you get to pick?

I will not be happy about missing my child's events but I understand that you have to sacrifice a little to get where you want to be. I know its not fair to her but in the long run I'm doing some of this for her too. My wife knows that I wont be home most of the time. I can see her getting a little frustrated with the situation but ultimately she understands. She wants to stay at home and take care of the kid, which this would allow her to do.
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 10:07:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Go get the First Class medical done.  Get the EKG done even though it's not required for your age  (first one comes at 35).  I did this at age 29 because of heart problems that run in the family.  I was concerned I wouldn't pass it and didn't want to quit my day job before I quit to flight instruct full time.  Instructed form age 30 to 32.  Got hired at a regional out west.  Upgraded just under 4 years.  I haven't had the wonderful career that many have had on here, but the least I've made in since upgrade 13 years ago is 93K.  I'll do about 135-140K this year.  And I'm home almost every day since I live in domicile.  ( only 3 overnights in a hotel over the last 12 months.)

How much flying have you done?   I wouldn't quit my day job until you've nearly got the CFI done.  It might be hard with you r current job and take a little longer, but you'll screw yourself financially without the money coming in.  Taking out 100K in loans is just a terrible idea.   Fly twice on Saturday and Sunday and once or twice after work during the week if need be.  Take 2 weeks of vacation and knock out the private and another two weeks to knock out the instrument.  Fly the cheapest aircraft you can to build time and keep the cost down.

Commuting just sucks.

You will spend a lot of time away from home and your family.  You will miss birthdays and holidays.  Call in sick for the anniversary if need be.  Don't tell Envoy what that date is.
View Quote
Yes getting the first class medical done next week (I hope).
I have done 0 flying time. I got to sit in the F/O chair once it was up to cruise and fly a GIV-SP around on an engine sulk. I just hand flew it to turn 180 degrees to come back home and turned to AP back on(sp).
I am worried about quitting my day job while training as we have a mortgage and we have health insurance (if you call it that) where I work and Im worried about making ends meet with me just going to school.
I really don't want to take out a huge loan either but I want to get it done sooner rather than later. I will look into doing it on the weekends/week as I go. I'd prolly need a loan to do that too tho. But at least I would have my normal pay coming in and it probably wont be a huge one....not sure.
I like the idea of taking vacation to do the private and instrument. That should be all the time I would need to compete it I think, of course getting some flying and studying in before then. But do I do a single engine or a multi engine? Not too sure on what I would need. I'm guessing the flight school could help me out there.
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 10:11:09 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
And what's your backup plan in Envoy doesn't hire you?  Or it takes years to get based out of DFW?

Rumor has it that SkyWest is getting 20 or so CRJ900s configured with just 70 seats based out of DFW for AA.
View Quote
Don't know honestly. Have not thought about that. Fly for skywest when they get based here
But in all honesty that's something that I'd have to decide when and if that time comes.
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 9:56:49 PM EDT
[#27]
I'm at Envoy in DFW, just got it awarded yesterday and I haven't even finished training yet.

Got my Private in 2013, Commercial ASEL/AMEL, and Instrument in 2015.

Flew 135 for a year, instructed for a year and flew part 91 for the news.

I turn 31 this November, so it can be done. There are ways to get hours fast if you are single and can suck it up a year or two.

I flew 1,000 hours in the last year to finish my 1,500.

Edited to add:

I got my private while I was working two full time jobs and had a GF. Find a part 61 school and work it into your schedule. Go fly 2-3 times a week, take your written and medical asap.

Rent and find someone on airline pilot central forums in the low time or part 91 section to build flight time with. You'll need PIC and cross country for the IFR and commercial ticket anyways. Tons of people here in DFW for time splitting.

By then, if you fly regularly the commercial is easy and the multi add on is even easier.

Also check out the LSA school at Addison. You can get an LSA CFI at 150 hours with no commercial and teach lessons. I did the same thing back in FL, 150 hours and got my CFI, instructed for 300 hours. Knocked out my IFR and Commercial ASEL/AMEL tickets in 60 hours total for all three checkrides. Saved a ton of money and almost immediately got a job flying a PC-12 under Part 135 scheduled service.
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 10:39:00 PM EDT
[#28]
I am surprised pipeline flying never came up in here yet, great way to build time, albeit single engine but time nonetheless. Our guys fly about 1300 hrs a year, starting pay in 40s, 4 days of flying a week, home most nights, weekends and holidays off. 500 hrs PIC minimum. Top end pay is low though, max speed is 130 knots and being a pilot is secondary.

There are companies to avoid OP, message me before you jump into one if you get serious about it.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 10:10:08 AM EDT
[#29]
You actually have an amazing network of advice here OP.  

Get the first class medical.    Get tickets, get that pipeline job.  Get ~1500 SE, get a couple hundred hours of ME, wherever, however.  

Get job at Envoy.  Pass checkrides.   Flow up.   Live the Dream.  

Time is of the essence.   Time is your biggest enemy or biggest friend.    Don't waste it.

-Do not ever get too comfortable.  Always live far below your means.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 10:37:01 AM EDT
[#30]
Starting at 30?   SSSSShhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiit man, you got plenty of time.  I graduated AF pilot training at 30 and was hired by an airline at 40.  I'd guess in today's climate, that if you started flying and pursued your FAA ratings aggressively, you could be at a major airline years before you turned 40.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 11:52:59 AM EDT
[#31]
do yourself a favor and don't
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 11:55:12 AM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
Starting at 30?   SSSSShhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiit man, you got plenty of time.  I graduated AF pilot training at 30 and was hired by an airline at 40.  I'd guess in today's climate, that if you started flying and pursued your FAA ratings aggressively, you could be at a major airline years before you turned 40.
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which is way different than taking your first lesson in a C152 at 30.

There will be a major down turn in the next 10 years, you can count on that. An airline job is anything but stable.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 11:55:22 AM EDT
[#33]
With 0 hours, your age, having kids, and having an established career I wouldn't do it unless it involved joining the military.  

Put another way, the $ you will spend attempting to get into a flying career would easily pay back your debt and make a 529 for your kid large enough to pay for most/all of his college. You'll have no guarantee of getting a good job and shortchange your family finances and family life(learning to fly in an efficient manner means you treat it like a job, or a second job in your case).

The military will give you job security for around a decade, pay for your kids college(transfer your gi bill to him), and give you flight experience in flight school that would cost you many hundreds of thousands of $ to get.  And you will make more money than you are making now after a very short time(maybe from day 1?).  

AF and navy are stingy with age waivers for civilians going to flight school but it can be done.  The army is usually pretty generous with them for flight school.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 12:03:02 PM EDT
[#34]
you could spend a fortune and 10 years getting your ratings, get that coveted major job and lose your medical because __________ ( fill in the blank) and be saddled with debt for a job you can never work in again.

Find a career that does not depend on passing a medical exam every 6 months and allows you to be home with your family every or at least most days.

Anybody that goes into a civilian flying job at an airline is an idiot, myself included.

ETA: but don't let me dash your dream or burst your bubble. I am an old cranky pilot tired of being away from home with 7 years to go and no pension.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:00:53 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
you could spend a fortune and 10 years getting your ratings, get that coveted major job and lose your medical because __________ ( fill in the blank) and be saddled with debt for a job you can never work in again.

Find a career that does not depend on passing a medical exam every 6 months and allows you to be home with your family every or at least most days.

Anybody that goes into a civilian flying job at an airline is an idiot, myself included.

ETA: but don't let me dash your dream or burst your bubble. I am an old cranky pilot tired of being away from home with 7 years to go and no pension.
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Mach speaks an important truth...one black swan event and you can be heavily screwed, saddled with debt and stuck in a dead end, but still highly competitive career highly contingent on a thousand things going correctly, with your control over any of them fairly limited. Ask me how I know.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the HR processes for getting hired at the Majors are incredibly opaque. Gone are the days of hitting career wickets (1000 Turbine PIC, 2 types, etc.) and then using your network. Its a near completely computerized process.

You never know where the filters are set to get you seen by a human. Or worse when you are "overqualified" or what you've done to completely negate your chances.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:09:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
you could spend a fortune and 10 years getting your ratings, get that coveted major job and lose your medical because __________ ( fill in the blank) and be saddled with debt for a job you can never work in again.

Find a career that does not depend on passing a medical exam every 6 months and allows you to be home with your family every or at least most days.

Anybody that goes into a civilian flying job at an airline is an idiot, myself included.

ETA: but don't let me dash your dream or burst your bubble. I am an old cranky pilot tired of being away from home with 7 years to go and no pension.
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There will always be the guys who will say this; and the most demoralizing, are the ones which are the Tier 1 SME's who have been there, done that.  

Because they're Right.     There is no Practical reason to try for it.  You are undertaking vast amounts of risk and sacrifice, for ????

Worse, you are asking your family to do the same.

However, not everything we do is driven by the logical side of the brain.    

Becoming a pilot is ultimately an Emotional decision.   Like joining the Priesthood, or volunteering for War.   Except, more selfish.

Is it worth everything to you?  

Is it worth death, or divorce?    Or, something far worse?

If you can honestly answer "Yes!"   Then do it, and let no one stop you.  

If you have the normal concerns of a pragmatic husband and father, than don't.    

It really is that simple.      I have exaggerated nothing.
If anything, I've understated it.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:27:32 PM EDT
[#37]
I don't have any regrets and I did it barely a year ago at age 48.   Now 9 months later after coming online, I'm getting 15-21 nights at home.  I did my research and put my values in order of airplane choice, base, no reserve and then money.  My company had a crappy reputation due to money/contract negotiations but all is well now.  I got the airplane and base before I signed the paperwork, has great training and IOE, never sat 1 day reserve, have an easy 1 leg commute on my own airline, and the contract is done.  For the summer, im blocking at 85hrs.  When the kids are in school, I'm blocking 91hrs.  Does it always work out perfectly, heck no, but I have no regrets changing careers at my age.   I look forward to going to work.  Tues I leave home, commute to work, fly  to Mexico and back, fly the plane to my hometown and I'm back in my bed for 2 nights (30hr overnights),  thurs I overnight in Canada and am back in my own bed on fri night til I leave on mon AM.  

Quality of life...
The money will come later...
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:44:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Job satisfaction has little or nothing to do with income.  

I was happier going to work when I was making 1/10 of what I am today.     Why?     Because I believed in my soul, that things would get better.

Chasing the dream, is more satisfying than living the dream.   Odd, but true.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 12:47:40 AM EDT
[#39]
BTW you don't the 100s of hours of multi time to get a job now.  Wet certificate with 10 hours of Seneca time will put you in a RJ.

Interviews,  dont worry about them either.  Done over the phone at some airlines.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 7:27:17 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


There will always be the guys who will say this; and the most demoralizing, are the ones which are the Tier 1 SME's who have been there, done that.  

Because they're Right.     There is no Practical reason to try for it.  You are undertaking vast amounts of risk and sacrifice, for ????
To live my dream of flying. Been wanting to do it since I was a kid. Grew up around corporate jets and helped my dad do all the avionics upgrades and wiring for the entertainment systems in them. Just the feeling of being up in the sky 35k feet up, the views up there are incredible and its so peaceful.
I really enjoy traveling and want to see the world.


Worse, you are asking your family to do the same.

This is where it hits me. Asking them to sacrifice and live with family so that I can live my dream. I should have done this years ago but didn't. They shouldn't have to give up anything because of me.

However, not everything we do is driven by the logical side of the brain.    

Becoming a pilot is ultimately an Emotional decision.   Like joining the Priesthood, or volunteering for War.   Except, more selfish.

Is it worth everything to you?   No

Is it worth death, or divorce?    Or, something far worse?  No

If you can honestly answer "Yes!"   Then do it, and let no one stop you.  

If you have the normal concerns of a pragmatic husband and father, than don't.    

It really is that simple.      I have exaggerated nothing.
If anything, I've understated it.
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see the red. Also adding....

Maybe it is best of me to just stay where I am. I do not have the means to get my private or ATP without taking out a huge loan to pay for that and supplement my paychecks. The thought of flying for a living is something I think would make me enjoy going to work. All the places I could see and the people that you meet.
I watch flying videos all the time on YouTube. The ones of with the ATC talk and everything. Mostly this guys channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvBiGpMISQ4
I just imagine that is me flying and I enjoy watching and listening to what he is doing. Crazy I know but its the truth.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 8:18:21 AM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:

I just imagine that is me flying and I enjoy watching and listening to what he is doing. Crazy I know but its the truth.
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Military is your only feasible and responsible option.  Good pay while you learn to fly and great benefits for your family.  No financial debt.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 8:30:58 AM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:


which is way different than taking your first lesson in a C152 at 30.
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The difference between a guy's first flight in a T6 vs a 152 is that the guy flying the T6 will be stuck in the AF for the next 11 years.  Right now, the military isn't the fast route to the airlines.  There are guys today that are only spending a few years at the regionals then getting hired at a major.  But of course there's always the chance that it doesn't work out...plenty of qualified guys at the regionals that can't get a call.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 8:36:07 AM EDT
[#43]
Jesus Christ there are some jaded motherfuckers in this thread. Whether or not you choose to pursue it is entirely up to you, op. Do your homework on what you're in for, how long it'll take, how much it'll cost, and what you'll gain.

I'll admit your situation is a good deal more tenuous than mine was. I got my training completed and flight time accrued prior to getting married and starting a family. But transferring colleges, going from a pre-med biology major to aviation, and fully committing myself to this course of living is the best decision I ever made. I feel extremely fortunate to be doing it, love every second of it, and actually feel sorry for all the working stiffs in the world that have no idea of what they're missing out on.

But if you think there's any chance that you could get a seat at an airline and then bitch and moan every fucking day about being a pilot then do every other pilot a favor and DON'T! Be a goddamned accountant, or real-estate agent, or dental hygienist, or anything where you won't be sitting 2 feet from somebody all day long that's grateful to be there while you destroy his life for 4 days with a shitty goddamned attitude. There are some people that no matter how good of a situation they find themselves in will still find something to bitch and whine about. These are the kind of people that could win the powerball and then rant about how much the government takes from it in taxes. Happiness comes from within. You can make up your mind to be a cranky fart or you can control your emotions like a goddamned grown man and make up your mind to count your blessings and realize how great you've actually got it.

If you've always wanted this, like you say, then you're exactly the guy I want to do a 12 day trip with through Hawaii and the far east. You'll be a pleasure to fly with and I guarantee you won't feel like an idiot for having done it. But maybe that's easy for me to say as I sit here in London drinking a pint of Fullers on a beautiful summers day. I could bitch about how it was a late night flight and I didn't get much sleep on a flight I was operating and how we got held up by security for over an hour so that a dumbass flight attendant could get arrested thus shortening my layover... Or I could reflect on the fact that the job was fucking easy, the ride was smooth, they fed me a 5 course meal for nothing, I slept a third of the time, and now here I am enjoying the weather, my solitude, my health, and this beer. Always be thankful for what you've got.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 9:42:08 AM EDT
[#44]
OP, think about some of these numbers for a minute.

Let's say you get on at Envoy when you are 34, flow to AA, and fly until you are 65.  That's 31 years of airline flying.  If you average 10 nights per month in a hotel, that's 3720 nights of the rest of your life spent not sleeping in your bed.

Another thing to think about is TAFB, or Time Away From Base.  At my airline, that's from when you report for your trip, until you are rereleased to go home at the end of your sequence.  I just looked over a sampling of schedules, both International and domestic at my airline.  The domestic schedules average 220-240 hours TAFB per month, and the international guys are right around 200.  So let's just use 200 as an example.  Minus one month of vacation per year, that's 68,200 hours time away from base, for a 31 year career.  Or 7.7 years, 24/7/365 spent on the road.

Some of us may seem jaded, and I guess we are.  That's what working in this industry through the "lost decade" after 9/11, and the downturn in the early 90's, as well as furloughs, downgrades, base closures, bankruptcies, etc will do for you. This industry is very cyclical, and the upswing won't last forever.  If you aren't in the seat you want, or one that you can live with when the music stops, it's not going to be near as enjoyable as you dream it will be.

And just my $.02 worth on "seeing the world".  After a while, the hotels are all the same, no matter if it's in Birmingham, AL, or London.  International is usually a better schedule, but it's a pretty small percentage of the seniority list that gets the cherry trips.  And lot's of the International layovers are 24 hours, after flying all night, at back of body clock times.  If you want to see the world, take vacation, and buy tickets.  Standby non-rev travel is pretty much useless anymore.  The airplanes are full with people who bought priceline tickets, so it's damn hard to get anywhere.  The last family trip we tried on my airline, we ended up having to buy tickets to get home, after spending all day at the airport trying to get on a plane standby.  We are going on one last end of summer trip to the beach, we are driving, it's just not worth the aggravation of trying to fly.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 9:57:25 AM EDT
[#45]
And on the flip side, the last time I spent a night in a hotel was last year when I picked up an extra trip for time and a half during the peak holiday season. I have yet to spend a night away from home this year.  Of course, living in base is the key to that. I know it's definitely not the norm, but it's doable.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 10:21:23 AM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:

The difference between a guy's first flight in a T6 vs a 152 is that the guy flying the T6 will be stuck in the AF for the next 11 years.  Right now, the military isn't the fast route to the airlines.  There are guys today that are only spending a few years at the regionals then getting hired at a major.  But of course there's always the chance that it doesn't work out...plenty of qualified guys at the regionals that can't get a call.
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I would personally non-concur. Rated guys have a decided advantage in the selection process to get in front of a human. At least at a couple of airlines, the computers sort the piles into rated vs. non-rated initially. The piles are sorted to the desired class composition. So, at one major, the idea is 40% rated, 40% non-rated, 20% other selection criteria. In a pool of 600 highly qualified candidates, it might be as much as 80% non-rated to 20% rated. So, the total competition for screening for interview is far shallower on the rated side of the pool, compared with the level to get to most qualified on the non-rated side.

This is in addition to the fact that getting the "most qualified" bullet points on the civilian side is objectively far harder, while collateral duties in a squadron are just easier to get and weighed as heavily in the process.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 12:24:22 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:


Don't know honestly. Have not thought about that. Fly for skywest when they get based here
But in all honesty that's something that I'd have to decide when and if that time comes.
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What are your plans to get your 1500 hrs so you can apply at Envoy?
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 1:01:28 PM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:



What are your plans to get your 1500 hrs so you can apply at Envoy?
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Well with the ATP school you can work for them and be a CFI. But I'd rather fly a king air or some other private jet to make my hours, be it an air ambulance or charter flying (Who knows I might like the corporate side better and get to fly a Falcon or Gulfstream around), But the better route (more logical and maybe fastest) would probably be the CFI
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 3:56:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Well with the ATP school you can work for them and be a CFI. But I'd rather fly a king air or some other private jet to make my hours, be it an air ambulance or charter flying (Who knows I might like the corporate side better and get to fly a Falcon or Gulfstream around), But the better route (more logical and maybe fastest) would probably be the CFI
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Nobody in their right mind would hand the keys to a GV to a 500hr pilot, sorry!
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 4:12:08 PM EDT
[#50]
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