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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/15/2005 5:58:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 6:08:27 AM EDT
tag for update after the meeting

Link Posted: 9/16/2005 6:09:54 AM EDT
In the eyes of the Church, a 'legal' marriage is not the same as the sacrament of marriage. I think the priest wants to make sure you have participated in the sacrament of marriage. Otherwise, you're just living in sin. Nobody's gonna make you do a full scale wedding/reception. Just need to have the marriage blessed by participating in the sacrament.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 8:25:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
In the eyes of the Church, a 'legal' marriage is not the same as the sacrament of marriage. I think the priest wants to make sure you have participated in the sacrament of marriage. Otherwise, you're just living in sin. Nobody's gonna make you do a full scale wedding/reception. Just need to have the marriage blessed by participating in the sacrament.



thanks Twire, that was my thought, but I figured it would be better to have a Catholic answer.

I got a question for you, kind of off the wall, but I'm curious:
My dad got remarred to a Catholic woman and they had to get permission from Rome to be married as my father and mother had divorced.

My father said they anulled his marriage to my mother. Does that mean the Catholic Church considers my sister and I to be bastards?
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 10:19:44 AM EDT
Well, I consider you a bastard for what that's worth!

Seriously, I don't think that the state of the marriage in the present is as important as the 'perceived' state of the marriage when the children were conceived. At the time of your conception and birth, I would assume that your father considered himself to be legally and sacramentally married to your mother.

Annulment means, to the best of my knowledge, that due to falsehood, addiction or some other barrier, one of the parties was unable to fully partake in the sacrament or honor the marital oath, and thus the marriage was not binding, and in conjunction with the actual meaning of the word (annulment) essentially never existed. But that is not a commentary on the legitimacy of the children.

I was unaware that a Catholic bishop could make a determination of such gravity on a marriage performed outside the Catholic faith though. Maybe I'm not catching your drift, though.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 10:22:13 AM EDT
could be my misunderstanding, but they had to get a letter from Rome before they could get married. I was told it was to anul his marriage.

I was 7 at the time so it may have been a lot more complex than that.

Link Posted: 9/16/2005 12:18:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 2:01:38 PM EDT
American tradition.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 2:06:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 2:52:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
I may be able to get out of this depending on the answer to this question. Is it a Catholic tradition to have the bride's family pay for the wedding or is that just a plain 'ol American tradition? My wife's family is butt ass poor and couldn't afford to pay for a cake much less an entire wedding.


All you need for the sacrament is a groom, a bride, and a priest. You don't have to do a full scale wedding deal. My parents did it when I was five after my father converted. The only people there were my mother, my father, my sister, and myself.

I just asked my mom and she said that they didn't have to rent the church because they did it at night.

I dunno.... Why don't you ask you pastor what would be involved in having just a ceremony with a priest and making it official in the eyes of the Church?
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:00:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 3:01:02 PM EDT by Wolfpack]
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:19:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:

Originally Posted By hydgirl:

All you need for the sacrament is a groom, a bride, and a priest. You don't have to do a full scale wedding deal. My parents did it when I was five after my father converted. The only people there were my mother, my father, my sister, and myself.

I just asked my mom and she said that they didn't have to rent the church because they did it at night.

I dunno.... Why don't you ask you pastor what would be involved in having just a ceremony with a priest and making it official in the eyes of the Church?



I'm pretty sure he is gonna want 6 months of "training" to get married again. I'll find out tommorrow but if he says just us and no training then I'm game.


If I remember correctly, you may have to go through some "training" but I think the six month's worth is only for people who haven't been married. It's more a self-help relationship thing than catechism..

Link Posted: 9/17/2005 1:37:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 1:54:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 10:49:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Alright, just got back from our meeting and I got everything I wanted. He said we can't recieve communion until we are married in the church which is looking like a few weeks. No counseling, he will give us a compatablility test and see if we need to work on anything. No cost. It can be just us and 2 witnesses, which can be anyone even church staff. Looks like I'm getting hitched...again.



Come on Bob....you should have called me first. The Church just wants to make to make sure that you are honoring the Sacred Sacraments. I am just starting the annulment process myself. I did get a civil divorce but the Church still considers me married to my first wife. I do have grounds for an annulment because my first wife didn't tell me that she was using the inserted birth control (deproprovera?) and NEVER had the intentions of having children. She had told me that we would have 2 kids but told her girlfriends that SHE was never going to have "fucking brat kids". She made life miserable for me when I was in college and ended up just leaving. She did feel bad about it later after I got the divorce and told me about not wanting to have kids. She felt bad because she knew how important the Church is to me and understood that it was one of my Sacraments.

thanks,
Ron
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:07:07 AM EDT
Wolfpack,

It'll probably just be a private blessing (called convalidation) after one of the Sunday Masses. Might even be some evening of your choosing. Whichever the priest and y'all decide on. Not a huge deal logistically, but a huge deal sacramentally. Congratulations on gettin' it sacramentalized!



As for the other comments:
Annulment is the Church looking to determine if a sacrament existed at the time of the marriage ceremony. Did the couple intend to contract a sacramental marriage? Beliefs such as "I'll never have kids," "marriage isn't permanent," etc. would mean that a sacramental marriage never took place. The Church doesn't question the civil legality of the marriage, just the sacramental validity. And annulment is NOT Catholic divorce. Not everyone who seeks an annulment gets one. If the Church determines that there was a sacrament at the beginning, then those people are married for life, whether they're divorced civilly or not (or even uncivilly).

And Dino. Bastard children has to do with civil law and inheritance, not Church sacraments. Children of divorced and annulled parents are still considered legitimate and not bastard kids.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:39:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By loonybin:
And Dino. Bastard children has to do with civil law and inheritance, not Church sacraments. Children of divorced and annulled parents are still considered legitimate and not bastard kids.



Ah didn't realize that, thanks for the info.

Never really concerned me, I just wondered how the Church looked at it.

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:30:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By loonybin:
Wolfpack,

As for the other comments:
Annulment is the Church looking to determine if a sacrament existed at the time of the marriage ceremony. Did the couple intend to contract a sacramental marriage? Beliefs such as "I'll never have kids," "marriage isn't permanent," etc. would mean that a sacramental marriage never took place. The Church doesn't question the civil legality of the marriage, just the sacramental validity. And annulment is NOT Catholic divorce. Not everyone who seeks an annulment gets one. If the Church determines that there was a sacrament at the beginning, then those people are married for life, whether they're divorced civilly or not (or even uncivilly).




The only reason that I think that I have a shot at the annulment is because of that reason. She will even sign an affidavit stating that she knew she didn't want kids and fooled me.

thanks,
Ron

Link Posted: 9/20/2005 10:03:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 10:06:18 AM EDT by loonybin]

Originally Posted By DoctorCheney223:

The only reason that I think that I have a shot at the annulment is because of that reason. She will even sign an affidavit stating that she knew she didn't want kids and fooled me.

thanks,
Ron



Yeah, deceiving your spouse and using an IUD (which causes abortions, BTW) because you intend on never having kids is pretty good grounds. Good luck. Although it can be a long, tedious, and sometimes painful process, I pray that it is a means of healing for you.

eta: IUD = IntraUterine Device (the internal birth control) Depo Provera is a shot she gets every 3 months (can also cause chemical abortions). Norplant are the rods she gets on the underside of her arm. works just like Depo. Depo and Norplant can have nasty side effects.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 10:07:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 10:12:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
No classes before wedding 2? You got off easy. I bet he makes you help set up the tables for bingo after the wedding ceremony.



Nice dig.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 10:34:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
No classes before wedding 2? You got off easy. I bet he makes you help set up the tables for bingo after the wedding ceremony.



Nice dig.



Only staff can do that
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 11:04:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

Originally Posted By dvr9:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
No classes before wedding 2? You got off easy. I bet he makes you help set up the tables for bingo after the wedding ceremony.



Nice dig.



Only staff can do that



Oops, I forgot...mea culpa. Damn...sorry...mea culpa is a latin phrase used by the Catholics (pre Vat II) seeking forgiveness.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 11:07:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Alright, just got back from our meeting and I got everything I wanted. He said we can't recieve communion until we are married in the church which is looking like a few weeks. No counseling, he will give us a compatablility test and see if we need to work on anything. No cost. It can be just us and 2 witnesses, which can be anyone even church staff. Looks like I'm getting hitched...again.



Dontcha' love all the unscriptural ritual and tradition?

Link Posted: 9/20/2005 11:12:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 11:16:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 11:17:23 AM EDT by dvr9]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By dvr9:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

Originally Posted By dvr9:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
No classes before wedding 2? You got off easy. I bet he makes you help set up the tables for bingo after the wedding ceremony.



Nice dig.



Only staff can do that



Oops, I forgot...mea culpa. Damn...sorry...mea culpa is a latin phrase used by the Catholics (pre Vat II) seeking forgiveness.





That was a joke oh thin skinned victims. Bet I set up and broke down more tables for bingo than both of you two put together.



You got me...mea culpa. Damn, I did it again.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 11:20:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 12:14:47 PM EDT
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