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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/1/2002 10:00:14 PM EDT
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=142536 Help me out here, need all the help i can get.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 11:02:11 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 1:20:02 AM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 9:03:58 AM EDT
Jeez guy, thanks for all the help. This is the third BTT.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 9:38:03 AM EDT
it is illegal to make a composite or polymer lower without prior BATF approval, because they dont want people making guns that can make it thru an airport metal detector. IF you do make one you need metal inserts/stiffeners like glock, and BATF approval. You are better off making an 80% lower.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 9:38:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 10:49:54 AM EDT by prk]
You want to mold lower(s) for "personal use" by using an Oly as a pattern then obscuring the name and other identifying marks? Sounds like trouble to me. Why would you and your buddy want to do that? Or another question is, "why do you get a discussion going on this, if it could be illegal?"
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 9:57:54 AM EDT
hey look outside of your house! [img]http://images.fotki.com/v4/photos/4/42477/127650/atf3-vi.jpg[/img] lol
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 10:51:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 10:52:22 AM EDT by prk]
Originally Posted By gaspain: hey look outside of your house! [url]http://images.fotki.com/v4/photos/4/42477/127650/atf3-vi.jpg[/url] lol
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Hey, they let him bring the truck home!! [:D]
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 10:56:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By prk: You want to mold lower(s) for "personal use" by using an Oly as a pattern then obscuring the name and other identifying marks? Sounds like trouble to me. Why would you and your buddy want to do that? Or another question is, "why do you get a discussion going on this, if it could be illegal?"
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My understanding of the law in regard to making your own gun is that as long as it is for personal use, there is nothing that would limit the use of different materials like carbon fiber, fiberglass, etc. You would HAVE TO remove the Oly Arms markings, otherwise you're committing trademark infringement and possibly running into a whole different ATF problem because of the Oly Arms insignia is appearing, then so may be the serial #. I'd throw a call to the ATF and tell them your plan and ask if there are any restrictions as to material usage or whatnot compared to working on a 80% lower.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 11:29:54 AM EDT
Balzac72 makes some good points here. You're better off calling ATF to find out what they say. I'm sure Oly would not appreciate appropriate of their trademark or other similar infringements, either.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 11:49:26 AM EDT
Oly arms was an example. It would probably be the cheapest lower i can find. I intend to skeletonize the mag well and do some other MODS. The same law applies in every instance that i have found for goining 0% to 100%. I can make a carbon fiber lower, trust me, i will be using standard parts kits. The cast will most likely be less than 80 percent, due to lack of time to manufacture the molds. Whats the diff between 80% aluminum or carbon fiber. BTW hesse sells carbon fiber lower.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 12:10:58 PM EDT
I work with composites on a daily basis... Answering the question from a composites standpoint, and NOT from a "Make the JBT's happy..." -You want to minimize the amount of resin used. The HIGHER the volume of fibers, the stronger the part will be. -Fiber orientation is important. If all the fibers go in one direction (Imagine a plate of carbon fiber, 12" x 2" for this one...) - All the fibers run the LONG direction of the sheet.. THEN, it would be hard to bend the sheet if you held it on the long sides. You would be able to roll it up into a 12" long tube though, with very little effort... - Here is your solution: Use a plain-weave carbon fiber roll, and wet it out with a slow cure resin. You are on your own regarding the way to make a mold of this thing. - What do I think of this project? Dumb. Make a mold out of plaster of paris, and make a polymer lower. You don't have to worry about joints (Where the fibers converge), thin spots, uneven places where there might be more resin than fiber, how about the place where the pin goes thru to connect the upper to the lower? How on earth could that be strong enough? Leave carbon fiber up to the folks that have the facilities to do this at.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 12:26:57 PM EDT
I think those major connection points DEFINITELY need metal reinforcement, atleast if you want it to last a while. I assume you're building the CF lower for its light weight and not for defeating metal detectors, right? (haha) So the small amounts of metal wouldn't really make much of a difference in the weight, but would definately prolong the life of the lower. Maybe instead of getting that Oly lower, you should get the HESSE CF, just to see how they did it, then sell it when you're done.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 2:50:33 PM EDT
Hesse sells crap. Period. Dot. The principal weakness of using composites or molded plastics for this application is the weak bearing strength of the material; this means the pins will enlarge their holes at much smaller loads than they will in aluminum or virtually any other metal. Manufacturing an AR lower from these materials is just an (interesting for some folks) exercise good for entertainment, but not much else. If you could fabricate a lower from carbon fabric and epoxy (or other resin, if you want a part that has stiffness similar to an aluminum lower, the composite's lower density is overcome by its lower stiffness (about 6 million for a quasi-orthtropic laminate of C/E cloth), resulting in a part that is about the same weight as the aluminum part. If you want good joint strength, the C/E part will be heavier (unless great care is used to add material only where absolutley necessary. Sorry, but it's mostly an impractical idea. But that never stopped us before.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:03:59 PM EDT
THANK YOU! Finally SOME SENSE. Good advice on the Stress points. What formulation of polymer should I use? Just plain PLASTER? How many pieces should i make the mold in? I was thinking BOTTOM(buffer hole and lower 1/3) then LEFT SIDE, and RIGHT side. Leaving the center full of material and just grinding it out later. But i worry with polymer about it MELTING as I am trying to GRIND IT OUT. I have never cast anything before. My buddy is pretty confident, he said 5 piece mold. 2 days max to make the mold. He also said he would take up the cost of materials, if i supplied the lower. We are also thinking of GRIPS in Carbon Fiber.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:16:03 PM EDT
here is some more info from an old post... [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=140881[/url] also here is a sweet post [url]http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=3da23d920444ffff;act=ST;f=11;t=40;hl=delrin[/url] As you make your lower, take pics and post em like this guy did, [url]http://quartz2.cyberstation.net/~dwpaul/bs-home.htm[/url] Do call the BATF and get an answer B4 you post em, I think they troll here. (puts tinfoil hat on) [<]:)]
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:35:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72:
Originally Posted By prk: You want to mold lower(s) for "personal use" by using an Oly as a pattern then obscuring the name and other identifying marks? Sounds like trouble to me. Why would you and your buddy want to do that? Or another question is, "why do you get a discussion going on this, if it could be illegal?"
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My understanding of the law in regard to making your own gun is that as long as it is for personal use, there is nothing that would limit the use of different materials like carbon fiber, fiberglass, etc. You would HAVE TO remove the Oly Arms markings, otherwise you're committing trademark infringement and possibly running into a whole different ATF problem because of the Oly Arms insignia is appearing, then so may be the serial #. I'd throw a call to the ATF and tell them your plan and ask if there are any restrictions as to material usage or whatnot compared to working on a 80% lower.
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Jesus Christ, you guys must all think that the punishment for trademark and copyright infringement is the death penalty! Trademarks are gained through use by the seller or manufacturer in using the mark as signifiying the source of its goods. Someone simply having the mark on his own personal item, made for his own use, IS NOT TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT. The ATF does not give a rat's ass about the OLY trademark on his lower (they might about the serial though). Trademark infringement occurs when a merchant sells a product using a mark substantially similiar to a prior user's mark (in order to confuse the public as to the source of the goods). In other words, the first user has built up goodwill in his mark that the second user seeks to capitalize upon with his use of the confusingly similiar mark on his goods. That's about all there is to trademark infringement (under the Lanham Act). No death penalty, not even any criminal penalties (unlike copyright law that provides for criminal penalties in cases of commercial copying and distribution of copyrighted works--but this is usually on a large scale). There may be criminal penalties for selling knockoffs/counterfeits as well as civil liability but that is a little different than traditional trademark infringement. So go ahead, put that Donna Karan label on your LL Bean jacket.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 11:49:35 PM EDT
Im not giving legal advice. I found this at the BATF site. ----------------------------------------------- (p)(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, import, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer, or receive any firearm -- (A) that, after removal of grips, stocks, and magazines, is not as detectable as the Security Exemplar, by walk-through metal detectors calibrated and operated to detect the Security Exemplar; or (B) [b]any major component[/b] of which, when subjected to inspection by the types of x-ray machines commonly used at airports, does not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the component. Barium sulfate or other compounds may be used in the fabrication of the component. (2) For purposes of this subsection -- (A) the term "firearm" does not include the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (B) the term "major component" means, with respect to a firearm, the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or [b]receiver[/b] the firearm; and (C) the term "Security Exemplar" means an object, to be fabricated at the direction of the Secretary, that is -- (i) constructed of, during the 12-month period beginning on the date of the enactment of this subsection, 3.7 ounces of material type 17-4 PH stainless steel in a shape resembling a handgun; and (ii) suitable for testing and calibrating metal detectors: Provided, however, That at the close of such 12-month period, and at appropriate times thereafter the Secretary shall promulgate regulations to permit the manufacture, importation, sale, shipment, delivery, possession, transfer, or receipt of firearms previously prohibited under this subparagraph that are as detectable as a "Security Exemplar" which contains 3.7 ounces of material type 17-4 PH stainless steel, in a shape resembling a handgun, or such lesser amount as is detectable in view of advances in state-of-the-art developments in weapons detection technology. (3) Under such rules and regulations as the Secretary shall prescribe, this subsection shall not apply to the manufacture, possession, transfer, receipt, shipment, or delivery of a firearm by a licensed manufacturer or any person acting pursuant to a contract with a licensed manufacturer, for the purpose of examining and testing such firearm to determine whether paragraph (1) applies to such firearm. The Secretary shall ensure that rules and regulations adopted pursuant to this paragraph do not impair the manufacture of prototype firearms or the development of new technology. (4) The Secretary shall permit the conditional importation of a firearm by a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, for examination and testing to determine whether or not the unconditional importation of such firearm would violate this subsection. (5) This subsection shall not apply to any firearm which -- (A) has been certified by the Secretary of Defense or the Director of Central Intelligence, after consultation with the Secretary and the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration, as necessary for military or intelligence applications; and (B) is manufactured for and sold exclusively to military or intelligence agencies of the United States. (6) This subsection shall not apply with respect to any firearm manufactured in, imported into, or possessed in the United States before the date of the enactment of the Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988. ---------------------------------------- [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/gca.htm[/url] so there you have it
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 7:17:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By magnum_99:
Originally Posted By Balzac72:
Originally Posted By prk: You want to mold lower(s) for "personal use" by using an Oly as a pattern then obscuring the name and other identifying marks? Sounds like trouble to me. Why would you and your buddy want to do that? Or another question is, "why do you get a discussion going on this, if it could be illegal?"
View Quote
My understanding of the law in regard to making your own gun is that as long as it is for personal use, there is nothing that would limit the use of different materials like carbon fiber, fiberglass, etc. You would HAVE TO remove the Oly Arms markings, otherwise you're committing trademark infringement and possibly running into a whole different ATF problem because of the Oly Arms insignia is appearing, then so may be the serial #. I'd throw a call to the ATF and tell them your plan and ask if there are any restrictions as to material usage or whatnot compared to working on a 80% lower.
View Quote
Jesus Christ, you guys must all think that the punishment for trademark and copyright infringement is the death penalty! Trademarks are gained through use by the seller or manufacturer in using the mark as signifiying the source of its goods. Someone simply having the mark on his own personal item, made for his own use, IS NOT TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT. The ATF does not give a rat's ass about the OLY trademark on his lower (they might about the serial though). Trademark infringement occurs when a merchant sells a product using a mark substantially similiar to a prior user's mark (in order to confuse the public as to the source of the goods). In other words, the first user has built up goodwill in his mark that the second user seeks to capitalize upon with his use of the confusingly similiar mark on his goods. That's about all there is to trademark infringement (under the Lanham Act). No death penalty, not even any criminal penalties (unlike copyright law that provides for criminal penalties in cases of commercial copying and distribution of copyrighted works--but this is usually on a large scale). There may be criminal penalties for selling knockoffs/counterfeits as well as civil liability but that is a little different than traditional trademark infringement. So go ahead, put that Donna Karan label on your LL Bean jacket.
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You couldn't be more incorrect. Trademarks also protect a company's name, which in this case could be important. This lower after being built could come apart and hurt someone. The identifying marks would place the responsibility at the hands of Oly, who in fact would never have had a hand in the construction. A media report of injury or worse would be VERY damaging, both financially and from a public viewpoint. Additionally, an investigation COULD be done into how they made the lower and didn't put a serial number on it. OR, the serial number from the "mold" gun could have also been transposed and you'd have a bigger ATF problem. Reread my post, you'll see where i mentioned the serial number issue. Additionally, where did you get your info regarding the fact that placing a TM name on another product is no big deal? Did you consider that guns are in a different realm than coats?! If he was testing these lowers and they were shattering and sending pieces all over the place, how would the average witness differentiate between his CF lower and a real oly product? Anyway, my post mentioned the issue, which should be taken into consideration, especially at a time when the AR15 industry is under attack. Why place any manufacturer in the place that they would have to expend resources to defend their name and a potential ATF investigation into whether they did in fact create the CF lower?
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 10:06:58 AM EDT
Just get a Cav Lower.
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 2:57:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By azcopwannabee: THANK YOU! Finally SOME SENSE. Good advice on the Stress points. What formulation of polymer should I use? Just plain PLASTER? How many pieces should i make the mold in? I was thinking BOTTOM(buffer hole and lower 1/3) then LEFT SIDE, and RIGHT side. Leaving the center full of material and just grinding it out later. But i worry with polymer about it MELTING as I am trying to GRIND IT OUT. I have never cast anything before. My buddy is pretty confident, he said 5 piece mold. 2 days max to make the mold. He also said he would take up the cost of materials, if i supplied the lower. We are also thinking of GRIPS in Carbon Fiber.
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Depends on what type of polymer you use. You want to use a "thermo-plast" and not a thermoset. Thermoplast, once set, won't melt. Sure, it might burn, but not turn to goo. Mix in metal to get "legal", ie, detectable by xray machines...
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 3:56:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/3/2002 5:10:23 PM EDT by magnum_99]
Originally Posted By Balzac72:
Originally Posted By magnum_99:
Originally Posted By Balzac72:
Originally Posted By prk: You want to mold lower(s) for "personal use" by using an Oly as a pattern then obscuring the name and other identifying marks? Sounds like trouble to me. Why would you and your buddy want to do that? Or another question is, "why do you get a discussion going on this, if it could be illegal?"
View Quote
My understanding of the law in regard to making your own gun is that as long as it is for personal use, there is nothing that would limit the use of different materials like carbon fiber, fiberglass, etc. You would HAVE TO remove the Oly Arms markings, otherwise you're committing trademark infringement and possibly running into a whole different ATF problem because of the Oly Arms insignia is appearing, then so may be the serial #. I'd throw a call to the ATF and tell them your plan and ask if there are any restrictions as to material usage or whatnot compared to working on a 80% lower.
View Quote
Jesus Christ, you guys must all think that the punishment for trademark and copyright infringement is the death penalty! Trademarks are gained through use by the seller or manufacturer in using the mark as signifiying the source of its goods. Someone simply having the mark on his own personal item, made for his own use, IS NOT TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT. The ATF does not give a rat's ass about the OLY trademark on his lower (they might about the serial though). Trademark infringement occurs when a merchant sells a product using a mark substantially similiar to a prior user's mark (in order to confuse the public as to the source of the goods). In other words, the first user has built up goodwill in his mark that the second user seeks to capitalize upon with his use of the confusingly similiar mark on his goods. That's about all there is to trademark infringement (under the Lanham Act). No death penalty, not even any criminal penalties (unlike copyright law that provides for criminal penalties in cases of commercial copying and distribution of copyrighted works--but this is usually on a large scale). There may be criminal penalties for selling knockoffs/counterfeits as well as civil liability but that is a little different than traditional trademark infringement. So go ahead, put that Donna Karan label on your LL Bean jacket.
View Quote
You couldn't be more incorrect. Trademarks also protect a company's name, which in this case could be important. This lower after being built could come apart and hurt someone. The identifying marks would place the responsibility at the hands of Oly, who in fact would never have had a hand in the construction. A media report of injury or worse would be VERY damaging, both financially and from a public viewpoint. Additionally, an investigation COULD be done into how they made the lower and didn't put a serial number on it. OR, the serial number from the "mold" gun could have also been transposed and you'd have a bigger ATF problem. Reread my post, you'll see where i mentioned the serial number issue. Additionally, where did you get your info regarding the fact that placing a TM name on another product is no big deal? Did you consider that guns are in a different realm than coats?! If he was testing these lowers and they were shattering and sending pieces all over the place, how would the average witness differentiate between his CF lower and a real oly product? Anyway, my post mentioned the issue, which should be taken into consideration, especially at a time when the AR15 industry is under attack. Why place any manufacturer in the place that they would have to expend resources to defend their name and a potential ATF investigation into whether they did in fact create the CF lower?
View Quote
First: This is NOT a pissing contest. Just want to get facts straight. My info is derived from my J.D. degree(graduated with honors and a concentration in intellectual property), participation in national trademark appellate advocacy competitions (judged by members/judges of the 9th circuit court of appeals by the way), and many hundreds of hours researching trademark issues. I know a little about the subject. Now, enough of my bona fides. Under the Lanham Act trademark infringement occurs if there is an unauthorized use [i]in commerce[/i] of: (a) any reproduction, counterfeit, copy, or colorable imitation of a registered mark in connection with the [i]sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising[/i] of any such goods or services on or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake or to deceive; or, (b) reproduce, counterfeit, copy, or colorably imitate a registered mark and apply such reproduction, counterfeit, copy, or colorable imitation to labels, signs, prints, packages, wrappers, receptacles, or advertisements [i]intended to be used in commerce[/i] upon or in connection with which use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake or to deceive. See 15 U.S.C. 1114 (emphasis added). So you see, trademark infringement is about a junior seller using a mark that is similiar to a senior seller's mark in order to confuse the public by trading on the goodwill of the senior seller. Therefore, no one will care that you put a different label on your Eddie Bauer in an attempt to fool your admirers because you aren't attempting to confuse your own customers into believing your product is truly that of another. THAT is the hallmark of trademark infringement; customer confusion. The issue of identification related to serial numbers is a wholly different legal issue regulated by federal firearms laws (of which I do not have nor do I claim to have expertise). I cannot imagine that, in your hypo of the lower shattering, that OLY would have any legal claim (MAYBE a business defamation claim if news got out that the lower may be an OLY, even if its not) and would certainly not have a cognizable claim of trademark infringement. It does not fit anywhere into the protection scheme afforded by the Lanham Act or even under traditional common law trademark protection (codified in section 34(a) of the Lanham Act). There seems to be a pervasive misconception by non-lawyers (and even some non-intellectual property lawyers) that infringement of intellectual property rights is like stealing your neighbor's car (grand theft). Maybe in general concept, but NOT practice. Example: There are cases where senior trademark users were eclipsed by larger national companies with confusingly similar marks that became famous as the source of the junior user's goods. The senior users have been permitted to retain their marks so long as they remain confined to their original area of the market. In other words, the junior user was permitted use of the mark because the general public associated it with the mark rather the prior user. So, you "steal" the mark, and because you are more successful in your business, you are permitted to retain the mark! How's that for efficient allocation of resources! So, like everything else in life, nothing is an absolute. I'm tired now.
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