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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/28/2002 12:57:02 PM EST
I have a permit for the state of Washington. I passed the FBI background check to get it. What type of behavior would be cause to get it revoked? Drunk driving bust? Showing it to scare someone? Someone seeing it while under my jacket [gun being exposed momentarily]. Fist fight? Anybody here ever have a permit revoked? And would these same infractions prevent you from getting issued a permit. I seem to behave much more carefully because I have one and don't want to lose it. Theres been many times that I wanted to get into somebodies face and didn't because of the permit. I've surprised myself many times with my show of restraint. So, am I too careful? Am I allowed to act like a cowboy once in a while without losing my permit?
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:04:10 PM EST
hows that quote go??? "..cooler heads prevail" sounds like good advice to me.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:12:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/28/2002 1:13:40 PM EST by markm]
generally, i would say that anything that would prevent you from getting the permit in the first place could cause you to lose it. DUI would not. An assault conviction might. It sounds like you're wired right. I have had a similar tendency towards professional and responsible carry since i obtained my CCW. And like you, I have been surprised by my restraint.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:32:55 PM EST
Here in NYS, any DWI, violent misdemeanor or felony is grounds for revocation. An issuing court can also review a permit holders fitness to continue to possess a permit based on any number of reasons, such as an arrest pending prosecution (permit is suspended until decision is made), or even an officers request. I have made my first such request of a court, based on a road rage incident in which a permit holder intentionally passed and rammed an 18 wheeler, then confronted the driver and stated that he wanted to kill the rig driver, and continued to state after I showed up that he was going to settle things with his 45. He saw nothing wrong with his behavior or comments, and the only reason he didn't go to jail was due to the rig drivers declining to pursue charges against him. The permit holders actions were motivated by his displeasure at how the 18 wheeler merged with his lane of traffic.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:35:30 PM EST
I was just thinking about this a month ago when I got into a minor altercation with the neighbor across from me. ( I live in an Apt ). Anyway, This guy was pushing my buttons, trying to provoke me into a fist fight, getting into my face, etc., etc., 12 years ago I would have just hauled off and knocked the guy out, but since this was happening while I was carrying I kept thinking in the back of my mind that to many factors could result in the situation getting very intense very fast. The guy wasn't threatening me with it but had a large BBQ fork in his hand while we were arguing. I basically swallowed all my macho pride and backed down and told the guy I wasn't going to fight him and if he continued I would call the police. My wife asked me if I was ok when I got back inside the apt as she was wondering why I didn't beat the crap out of the guy as she had seen me do 10 years ago when we first met. I explained my thoughts on the fact I was carrying and that I was in a situation whereas If he persisted and actually brought the fork up as a weapon I would be forced to pull my weapon on him and that for what we were arguing about was not worth taking a man's life so I thought the best thing I could do was back off. I'm happy as hell now since they finally moved and I no longer have to deal with it. Later, John
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:45:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Beagles747: I was just thinking about this a month ago when I got into a minor altercation with the neighbor across from me. ( I live in an Apt ). Anyway, This guy was pushing my buttons, trying to provoke me into a fist fight, getting into my face, etc., etc., 12 years ago I would have just hauled off and knocked the guy out, but since this was happening while I was carrying I kept thinking in the back of my mind that to many factors could result in the situation getting very intense very fast. The guy wasn't threatening me with it but had a large BBQ fork in his hand while we were arguing. I basically swallowed all my macho pride and backed down and told the guy I wasn't going to fight him and if he continued I would call the police. My wife asked me if I was ok when I got back inside the apt as she was wondering why I didn't beat the crap out of the guy as she had seen me do 10 years ago when we first met. I explained my thoughts on the fact I was carrying and that I was in a situation whereas If he persisted and actually brought the fork up as a weapon I would be forced to pull my weapon on him and that for what we were arguing about was not worth taking a man's life so I thought the best thing I could do was back off. I'm happy as hell now since they finally moved and I no longer have to deal with it. Later, John
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Nice show of restraint.[beer] Sounds Like we're cut from the same stock. Now that I carry, I'm much more cool headed.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:46:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:46:08 PM EST
Correct me if I am wrong, but, "An armed society is a polite society." Don't recall the origin of this one
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:53:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/28/2002 1:56:13 PM EST by Benjamin0001]
I don't carry concealed or otherwise. And it is very easy for me to see how that ACE up your sleeze can go from Life Saver in some instances to a complete liability. It is a last resort measure when your life is in jeopardy. An ex-Houston LEO once told me that. I believe him. He said that he carried concealed and the only time that he was tempted was when A guy was running straight at him outside an ATM. He merely pulled his jacket back and revealed the end of the pistol and the guy stopped in his tracks and ran off. I wouldn't even show the pistol except in a very dire scenario. Just be cool and relaxed and confident that you don't have to argue, fight, or anything else. THE CCW is defensive only. Ben
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 1:54:16 PM EST
Jeff Cooper said it I think
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 2:20:13 PM EST
"An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein [b]The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress[/b]
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 2:29:27 PM EST
Thank you gentlemen. It just seemed to fit the spirit of this thread.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 2:33:38 PM EST
Isn't it interesting how calm and restrained those of us that carry are? We realize the great power of life and death we have and we take great pains to ensure that power is not abused. This absolutely flies in the face of the liberal argument that an armed society is a dangerous society. Doctor John Lott is right when he said that more guns equal less crime and that armed citizens aren't going to become another Wild Bunch. Doctor Roger McGrath, a history prof at UCLA and Cal State Northridge, wrote a book some years ago entitled, "Gunfighters, Highwaymen, and Vigilantes: Violence on the Frontier." A central point he makes in his book is about how genteel and polite life was like in a 1870s California mining town. His findings proved that years before Dr. Lott's thesis was popular, the good citizens of California back then were real polite to each other...exactly because everybody packed heat. As a sidelight...another finding was that womenz were treated with great deference and politeness.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 3:15:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By rainman: Theres been many times that I wanted to get into somebodies face and didn't because of the permit. I've surprised myself many times with my show of restraint. So, am I too careful? Am I allowed to act like a cowboy once in a while without losing my permit?
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Any and all of those things might cause you to loose that permit. Best course of action is not to do anything that might jeopardize it. Also, why in the world are you getting into all sorts of 'face matches'? Are you a trouble maker? Do you hang out with friends that are trouble? You should be in no one's 'face' unless they actually are touching you or a loved one period. Walk away, it's the prudent thing to do, better yet, don't go to places, or hang out with 'friends' that cause these incidents to happen. Last but not least, no, you should not be a cowboy, that will get your permit revoked and quite possibly the loss of your firearms as well.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 3:47:43 PM EST
I've often wondered what causes people to constantly be getting into fights. I have been in 1 fight, and that due to protecting someone. Do you find yourself the aggressor or the aggressee? Myself, being a bigger guy, used to get all kinds of challenges that were brought on due to cases of 'beer bravery' that people get, but never did i put myself in a situation that warrented getting into someone's face.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 4:26:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 3:40:03 AM EST by rainman]
Apparently your 16 and 13 year old daughters don't live with your ex-wife who lives with her scumbag boyfriend. Don't judge me.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 4:58:33 PM EST
Don't know who your last post was intended for, but, if it was for me I'll respond to it.. :) I am not, nor do I intend to 'Judge' you. I responded based on your question, and comments. Being divorced and having kids that you visit can be very frustrating. Your x-wife could certainly set you up for a confrontation. I'd suggest, when picking up your kids you consider leaving the gun behind. Or, better yet, arrange for a Court sponsored exchange site/person when you take the kids. This is common in most states when the divorce was nasty and lots of hate between the parties continue. And last, leave the cowboy shit for the bedroom.. :)
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 5:17:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By AW4EVER: Jeff Cooper said it I think
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I used to work for Kings Gun Works, LA, CA, and one of the Gunsmiths was Jim Hoag. Jeff Cooper was a friend of Jim's, and Jeff always had Jim work on his guns. If you like Jeff Cooper, and his writings, You would like him twice as much in person. Incidentially I am not a gunsmith, I was just the counter jumper. But, I do have eight 45 autos, four by Jim Hoag. BITCHIN' This doesn't really belong here, but, Jeff's name was mentioned. Bill
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 5:17:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/28/2002 5:23:58 PM EST by Winston_Wolf]
... If you wanna act like a cowboy [b]open-carry[/b] is the way to go.[:D] ... Seriously, it's not so much the fear of revocation. Because I will carry concealed regardless of local laws. My right to defend myself and loved ones overrides if I'm not "permitted". ... Restraint is more like a posture of maturity and intelligence over demonstrable firepower. If it was merely "show & tell" I'd probably lose out to gang-bangers if it came to the "final option". ... My advantage over the roving band of gang bangers: My brain, the element of surprise and tactical advantage derived from serious and constant training. Winston's rules of concealed carry: (1) Concealed carry means concealed. (2) Do not mistake my silence and restraint for weakness. (3) If I walk away from an altercation, you may think I was a pussy but in reality is was probably getting some instead of stitches. (4) Do not mistake restraint for the lack will and ability to use my lethal weapon. (5) God forbid, if you do shoot. Kill. (6) If you kill, lay your weapon at your feet and raise your hands high in the air until you are handcuffed.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 5:28:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/28/2002 5:30:28 PM EST by GunnyG]
I found this, and copied it from: [url]http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html[/url] Ethics from the Barrel of a Gun: What Bearing Weapons Teaches About the Good Life ``The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the individual asserts both his social power and his participation in politics as a responsible moral being...'' (Historian J.G.A. Pocock, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S.) There is nothing like having your finger on the trigger of a gun to reveal who you really are. Life or death in one twitch -- ultimate decision, with the ultimate price for carelessness or bad choices. It is a kind of acid test, an initiation, to know that there is lethal force in your hand and all the complexities and ambiguities of moral choice have fined down to a single action: fire or not? In truth, we are called upon to make life-or-death choices more often than we generally realize. Every political choice ultimately reduces to a choice about when and how to use lethal force, because the threat of lethal force is what makes politics and law more than a game out of which anyone could opt at any time. But most of our life-and-death choices are abstract; their costs are diffused and distant. We are insulated from those costs by layers of institutions we have created to specialize in controlled violence (police, prisons, armies) and to direct that violence (legislatures, courts). As such, the lessons those choices teach seldom become personal to most of us. Nothing most of us will ever do combines the moral weight of life-or-death choice with the concrete immediacy of the moment as thoroughly as the conscious handling of instruments deliberately designed to kill. As such, there are lessons both merciless and priceless to be learned from bearing arms -- lessons which are not merely instructive to the intellect but transformative of one's whole emotional, reflexive, and moral character. The first and most important of these lessons is this: it all comes down to you. No one's finger is on the trigger but your own. All the talk-talk in your head, all the emotions in your heart, all the experiences of your past -- these things may inform your choice, but they can't move your finger. All the socialization and rationalization and justification in the world, all the approval or disapproval of your neighbors -- none of these things can pull the trigger either. They can change how you feel about the choice, but only you can actually make the choice. Only you. Only here. Only now. Fire, or not? A second is this: never count on being able to undo your choices. If you shoot someone through the heart, dead is dead. You can't take it back. There are no do-overs. Real choice is like that; you make it, you live with it -- or die with it. A third lesson is this: the universe doesn't care about motives. Read the the rest @ [url]http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html[/url]
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 5:41:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By rainman: I have a permit for the state of Washington. I passed the FBI background check to get it. What type of behavior would be cause to get it revoked? Drunk driving bust? Showing it to scare someone? Someone seeing it while under my jacket [gun being exposed momentarily]. Fist fight? Anybody here ever have a permit revoked? And would these same infractions prevent you from getting issued a permit. I seem to behave much more carefully because I have one and don't want to lose it. Theres been many times that I wanted to get into somebodies face and didn't because of the permit. I've surprised myself many times with my show of restraint. So, am I too careful? Am I allowed to act like a cowboy once in a while without losing my permit?
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your joking right? did you take a class? i had to take a class and in it i learned what actions on my part could get my CHL revoked.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 5:51:03 PM EST
Been packing in the state of Washington since 1966.We are a "shall issue state" and I encourage everyone I sell a weapon to,to get a permit.I figure the more there are,the harder it would be to ever take it away.I forget that I have it on lots of the time(I have a pawnshop and carry all the time).The funny thing is,every confrontation that I have been in-I have always forgotten about the gun until it was all over.These were just tossing out the rare nasty person or gangbanger,never anything serious.The only time we got held-up,my gun was in the safe.LOL.Like someone said"concealed means just that", until its so bad that there is no other way!God forbid,because you had better be right and you better have a real good lawyer,even if you are right.Just an old mans 2 cents worth.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 5:56:23 PM EST
I was also suprised how a conceled weapon humbled me. Not that I was startin shit all over town,but for me,It makes me look past the emotion or compulsion of the heated moment.I kinda think about how easily things can escalate in an ugly direction.These situations are mostly nonsense,childish chestbeating.So I avoid it or put a stop to it before things get nasty. For me having the power of life and death in my pocket gives me a confidence that I have the final say in a truly grave, life threatning situatuation.And also gives me an adult perspective on whats really important as far as pursing differences of opinion.Most of these situations aren't worth me wasting my time. It also makes much more observant of others and their behavior. Don't take this too hard,but if your thinkin about adopting a "cowboy" mentality,"once in a while"?maybe you shouldn't carry.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:04:41 PM EST
308wood-- no class reguired. No shooting required. Just pass the background check and it arrives in the mail about 30 days later. I will add that I've owned handguns all my adult life and feel comfortable with them. I'm in my fifties and I'm not a trouble maker. The last fight I got in, mmmmmm, think I was in the 5th grade.[I won] Washington is pretty damn easy. Can carry any gun I want as long as its a legal weapon.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 10:04:31 PM EST
Summation: 1)Concealed carry permit holders are MORE responsible than the general public. 2)Concealed carry will not cause every little incident to turn into a gunfight with blood running in the street. When will the masses realize this? (I've given up on teaching the rabid antis anything.) Ben, The(WA CPL holder)Emu P.S. I had my permit before I bought my first pistol.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 10:17:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By rainman: Apparently your 16 and 13 year old daughters don't live with your ex-wife who lives with her scumbag boyfriend. Don't judge me.
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I will... frankly, you sound unfit to be carrying to me.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:04:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By Paul: After I got mine I was a tad bit more restrained even. I figure that things that I would have to get involved with earlier before were handled with a bit more discression while packing.
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So now that you no longer have a valid CWP have you gone back to your old hell-raising, bar fighting ways? [;)]
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:06:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By 308wood: your joking right? did you take a class? i had to take a class and in it i learned what actions on my part could get my CHL revoked.
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Take a class? What's that? Not all states are as distrustful of their residents as Texas and California, you know. We Washingtonians just go down to the local cop shop or county courthouse and says we wants our CWP. [:)]
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:42:48 AM EST
Midiman-- I don't understand. I'm unfit to carry because I'm divorced?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:11:13 AM EST
A lot of good issues are being brought up. For the price of one gun, you can go and learn most of the answers to the big question. And the big question is of course not always [b][i]HOW[/i][/b], but [b][i]WHEN[/i][/b]?
LFI-I Judicious Use Of Deadly Force The most famous LFI course, 40 hours of immersion training that (Lawyers and cops who've taken it agree) goes well beyond law school and the police academy in this critical decision-making area. Prevention, intervention and aftermath management are all thoroughly considered. The course includes: when the citizen can and cannot use a gun in self defense...tactics for home defense...street gunfighting tactics...how to take a criminal suspect at gunpoint...selection of guns, ammo, and holsters... psychological preparation for violent encounters...[u]justifying your actions in court[/u]. Intensive combat shooting comprises 40% of the course, the remainder being lecture, video and student interaction.
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(also, I for one will submit that there is a difference between the [b]right[/b] to keep and bear, and the [b]privilege[/b] of carrying a handgun in the same crowded mall as me and my loved ones. Society is holding you to a higher standard of care. I'm holding you to a standard several times higher than that. Do you have a problem with that?)
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:20:06 AM EST
I too have found that I think about the consequences of what I might do now that I carry and just because I want to keep owning guns. I no longer get into gesturing matches with other drivers when they do their stupid crap like not looking before changing lanes or just poking along in the left lane. Not only do I not want to get into an altercation while carrying, I find that I don't want to do anything even while not carrying that would cause me to perhaps be convicted of a charge that would remove my right to legally own guns.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:27:53 AM EST
For me, CCW means.... ...knowing you have the power to settle an argument makes you less likely to engage in an argument. Takes all the sport out of it. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:31:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dolomite: (also, I for one will submit that there is a difference between the [b]right[/b] to keep and bear, and the [b]privilege[/b] of carrying a handgun in the same crowded mall
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Bear - (v) 1) to carry 2) to be equipped with 3) to give as testimony 4) to give birth to 5) endure, sustain 6) to be or become directed So either it means we have to put up with the fact that other people have guns, or perhaps we can give birth to guns. People. Keep means posess. Bear means carry. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. Since you claim you have the [b]privilege[/b] of carrying in a crowded shopping mall, you might just want to check the signs on the doors when you enter. If you've found a mall that doesn't prohibit otherwise legally concealed carry, let me know where it is so I can send em a few bucks of token appreciation.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:33:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Midiman:
Originally Posted By rainman: Apparently your 16 and 13 year old daughters don't live with your ex-wife who lives with her scumbag boyfriend. Don't judge me.
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I will... frankly, you sound unfit to be carrying to me.
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Frankly, it's not up to to judge whether his is fit to carry or not, newbie.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:49:44 AM EST
to thumb and others...read my sig....
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:39:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 6:59:30 AM EST by Dolomite]
Originally Posted By thumbtrap: Since you claim you have the [b]privilege[/b] of carrying in a crowded shopping mall,
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Where did I say that? I live in Wisconsin. We don't have CCW, YET. I was speaking euphemistically, now I'll address you literally: Responsibility (n): 1: the social force that binds you to your obligations and the courses of action demanded by that force: "we must instill a sense of duty in our children"; "every right implies a responsibility; every opportunity, an obligation; every possession, a duty"- John D.Rockefeller 2: the proper sphere or extent of your activities; "it was his province to take care of himself" 3: ability or necessity to answer for or be responsible for one's conduct. Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University I do believe those that read/follow the 2A, as it is written, have a valid point. However, I spend a lot of valuable time and hard earned cash fighting for the right of my fellow law abiding citizens to carry concealed in Wisconsin. Somewhat conversely, as a certified NRA RSO and IDPA SO, I see enough cowboys on the range to make me think that the ability to display safe gun handling skills to a certified instructor is NOT asking too much from the citizen that wants to go about armed in public. My opinion is that such a requirement should be the minimum standard. I took an oath to defend the Constitution once, and I never intend to stop doing just that. However, if you think I'm being a hypocrite or that my argument is such that I'm going to self-destruct like some robot caught in the descending logic spiral of the "inalienable rights" v. "shall-issue" dilemma, well… whatever. [EDITED - due to the fact that there was no way in hell I could spell "euphemistically" right the first time]
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