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Posted: 6/19/2005 4:21:53 PM EDT
I own a carbon fiber company called Carbon Concepts Corp in Miami FL. I wanted to make this post because I saw someone else write that he would like a M1a stock made in CF. Is there a huge demand for a lighter durable stock other than factory? I have learned a lot from this forum and would like to offer my services to you all maybe as starting a new product only offered to Ar15.com members.

Our company is right now doing some government contract work and we also work in the auto industry. I would like to merge my hobby with some of my work and be able to offer it to you. We do what you would call vacuum bagging process and we are geared to do mass runs. So a minimum of say 50 would make it cost effective.

If you all would post your thoughts maybe we would be able to offer you all a wonderful lightweight product.

TIA

some of our work

Mines Spoiler for the WRX




carbon fiber wheels lights and fog covers we offer for the WRX

Link Posted: 6/19/2005 4:39:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 4:40:28 PM EDT by Katana16j]
You make nice product, ultimately I see potential in rifle applications seeing as how there is a good deal of concern directed towards weight.

I was the one who made the comment about the carbon fiber m1a stock, and I think it would posess dramatic weight savings. 1 lb may not seem like much, but that moves a rifle down a good bit.

Another fortunate aspect is that prototyping should not be nearly as extensive, many rifles people would desire stocks for are government contract, thus you can get high quality spec drawings free.

Of course it does come down to cost, but that would seem more reasonable as the savings gained. So there might not be any desire for say ar15 telestocks, but for M1a stocks and fal hardware you will see people who want to spend more cash.

I'll post a link to this on m-14forum, I think you'll see more demand from those guys.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 4:57:02 PM EDT
thank you and please let me know. To make a mold off of something would run about $400 or so, then the cost of making the product. You would be looking at about 1 per day based off of 1 mold. If the demand is there maybe we could talk numbers and see if you think it would be worth getting into.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:05:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 5:08:50 PM EDT by Sniper_Wolfe]
I don't own an M1A, but for what it's worth, I saw someone selling an FAL on the Equipment Exchange that had a carbon fiber stock on it. So, there is a market out there.

ETA - Here's the rifle:

Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:08:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 5:18:50 PM EDT by PeteCO]
There is definitely a market for graphite tubing up to maybe 2.5" I.D. or so. I also know some experimental aircraft builders who would love some intake manifolds for a Mazda rotary engine - seriously - probably about 10 of them. Currently it is fabbed from wax, layed up, and the wax is metled out of it. I have done something similar with foam, chemically removing the foam.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:11:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
There is definitely a market for graphite tubing up to maybe 2.5" I.D. or so.




tell me more, for what?
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:11:55 PM EDT
Some carbon fiber AR furniture would be too cool.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:12:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 5:12:49 PM EDT by Katana16j]
I can't quite afford a stock right now, but If someone wants to go in on m14 stocks I'm game. Ideally I'd like to spend 200$ or less.

My only question, is there any way to make the resin less reflective?
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:13:03 PM EDT
I could go for an M16A2/M4 stock.

I could also go for some small trim pieces for my car.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:14:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 7:11:00 PM EDT by vedubin01]

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
I can't quite afford a stock right now, but If someone wants to go in on m14 stocks I'm game. Ideally I'd like to spend 200$ or less.

My only question, is there any way to make the resin less reflective?



I think we could keep the production cost on the stocks to around $(200 each dont hold me to this) if we were able to do a production run of say 50 or so. If I can get some interest I would get started sooner than later.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:18:32 PM EDT
Maybe we could talk to Steyraug about setting up a group buy.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:23:10 PM EDT
I just spent $130 for a carbon fiber Hydro-Graphic finish on an A2 stock.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:25:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Maybe we could talk to Steyraug about setting up a group buy.



Before I would talk about a group buy I would like to make one and abuse it for a bit. I do not want to put out a product that may have unforeseen problems. I really do not see any in the M1a stock but again its not done and on a working gun.

If there is a good response on such a product I could take pre-orders to help offset the cost of producing. But I would have a test product already out and sent to someone for a review. I do not mind spending a few dollars to get something out there to fill a need. I just want to make sure there is a need out there to spend my money on.

I have talked to some friends in the past about this but the CF craze just has not hit the gun market like others. Maybe this could be a start!
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:30:52 PM EDT
id be interested in a AR15 carbon fiber stock.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:32:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 5:32:52 PM EDT by PeteCO]

Originally Posted By vedubin01:

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
There is definitely a market for graphite tubing up to maybe 2.5" I.D. or so.




tell me more, for what?



Many uses that I know of for the experimental airplane market. Lots of guys are trying to hard to make tubes by doing stuff like wrapping PVC pipe, which as you might imagine doesn't work so well. It's extremely hard to get a constant diameter down the length. If you simply stocked various sizes, I KNOW they'd sell.

In the car/rice market, I think foam core sandwich tube would sell well for intakes, especially to those who have heat soak concerns.

The only real solution for someone looking for a composite "tube" is filament or tape-would fiberglass right now. I think there is one company out there offering aramid tubing but it is filament wound as well and heavier than it needs to be for certain markets.

I'd love to see a graphite forend and buttstock for my Remington 870......
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:33:55 PM EDT
if you made good quality grips , stocks and handguards i think it would catch on
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:35:06 PM EDT
I would love to have a pistol display case made from carbon fiber, with plexiglass window/ top. Something like 14"x10"x5". $200 - $400? That would be alot of work and material.

IM me when they ship.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:39:34 PM EDT
we also do offer intakes for the so called Ricer cars, they are a really hot seller. We can offer something in tubing, the options are endless. Our markets have been set and we are working on a backload right now. Its good in a way. But we turn out some really high quality stuff. And that takes time. I have always been into guns and such, I have always wanted to make something for them. The AR market is tough. The itmes you can make like hand guards, pistol grips, and stocks are ok but whats the market for something like that? I do not know! As for the stock goes I do not think it would be a good idea for CF to be there. I am no expert but Im thinking its taking a pounding by the buffer and spring. That is just something I do not want to see fail.

If the long gun stuff takes off (M1a and a like) Id be open to do some testing on some more high wear items.

Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:43:45 PM EDT
Got a web site? If so, please IM to me.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:46:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vedubin01:

If the long gun stuff takes off (M1a and a like) Id be open to do some testing on some more high wear items.




I'll volunteer to be a tester
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:49:50 PM EDT
we have been upgrading it and there is only a splash page for the CF side of things as we speak. www.carbonconceptsusa.com and our wheel line is www.carbonmadness.com Now on the wheel site if you go looking hard we have been changing it as well. You will see things that are not suspose to be there. But my partner (the one doing the work) is trying to get that taken care of. Its been a long process and we can not afford to take down both sites. The wheels sell as fast as we can make them.

Link Posted: 6/19/2005 5:56:27 PM EDT
I would be interested in a carbon fiber chrome lined 1/7 twist 14 1/2 inch barrel :)
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 6:05:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vedubin01:
we have been upgrading it and there is only a splash page for the CF side of things as we speak. www.carbonconceptsusa.com and our wheel line is www.carbonmadness.com Now on the wheel site if you go looking hard we have been changing it as well. You will see things that are not suspose to be there. But my partner (the one doing the work) is trying to get that taken care of. Its been a long process and we can not afford to take down both sites. The wheels sell as fast as we can make them.




Are you autoclaving those rims, just vac bagging, or what? Are they foam core?
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 6:18:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vedubin01:
we also do offer intakes for the so called Ricer cars, they are a really hot seller. We can offer something in tubing, the options are endless. Our markets have been set and we are working on a backload right now. Its good in a way. But we turn out some really high quality stuff. And that takes time. I have always been into guns and such, I have always wanted to make something for them. The AR market is tough. The itmes you can make like hand guards, pistol grips, and stocks are ok but whats the market for something like that? I do not know! As for the stock goes I do not think it would be a good idea for CF to be there. I am no expert but Im thinking its taking a pounding by the buffer and spring. That is just something I do not want to see fail.

If the long gun stuff takes off (M1a and a like) Id be open to do some testing on some more high wear items.




There isn't much stress put on the buttstock.

The receiver extension (aka buffer tube) takes the force. The buttstock attackes to the buffer tube via a screw but does not have to withstand the same forces.

I don't know what your level of familiarity with the system is, but take a look here if what I say is confusing. www.bushmaster.com/electronic-documents/2005Catalogv1/Page%2040-42%20Parts%20&%20Schematics.pdf
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 6:19:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 6:24:14 PM EDT by vedubin01]
we offer molding, autoclave, hand lay-up, trm/vartm, and vacuum bagging

Compression Molding

Compression molding is the process by which a composite compound is molded into the desired shape by placing it in a heated cavity, closing the platens, and applying heat and pressure for the required cure cycle.

Tools used to mold parts are usually fabricated from aluminum or steel depending on design and production requirements.

Developments into new molding compounds by raw material suppliers, including those using kevlar and graphite as well as fiberglass, has widened the spectrum of potential applications.

Even parts already made from composites using other processes may be more suited to compression molding. If so, the switch could provide cost savings and improved product quality.


Autoclave

Autoclaves are used to process both laminated composites and bonded metallic assemblies, for example honeycomb panels. While under vacuum, or vented, heat and pressure can be adjusted to optimize the fiber/resin ratio in composite parts and provide high strength bonds (using high strength film adhesives) in bonded assemblies.

Tools used to mold parts are usually fabricated from aluminum or steel depending on design and production requirements, but can also be made form composites if suitable to the application.

autoclaves use a comprehensive control system, yielding extreme versatility in determining and controlling process variables in the molding cycle, such as ramp and soak temperature cycles. Chart recorders provide real-time records of temperature, pressure, and vacuum.


Hand lay-up

Need I say more :o)

RTM/VRTM

Resin Transfer Molding, also called vacuum molding.


other products, (INTAKE)



Rear bumper (Race car)



Link Posted: 6/19/2005 6:34:25 PM EDT
I like composite material, especially carbon fiber. My expertise is from aerospace, back in the Cold War days. Why the AR15 has not gone to a carbon fiber upper (flat top), lower, handguard, stock tube, charging handle, and CF wrapped barrel is beyond me. I guess the military old-heads want it THEIR way. I want to build such a rifle, but parts are not easily available.

If you have the resources, start with something everyone may take an interest in, and one that is fairly easy to produce: an AR15 A2 full size stock and matching pistol grip.

As far as I know, only three companies sell carbon fiber free float handguards: Clark, PRI (?), and Hyperform. These seem to be catching on. Folks tend to like the rail system with them too.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 6:47:24 PM EDT
Count me in on M1A accessories!

Now, if you can incorporate a right-folding design into it, you'll sell them way faster than you can make them. Right now, all the folding stocks for M1A's/M14's run around $600 and up. With the popularity of the SOCOM and Scout/Bush rifle M1A's right now, there's folks dying for a reasonably priced side-folding stock.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 6:57:52 PM EDT
before I go quoting prices on what things would cost I would really have to get into this. I have never had the pleasure of owning one and Im looking into this more. but please if someone can post pics or send them to me at vedubin01@hotmail.com of the stocks that people are looking for. Again we would run them as a production and that way we can try to keep the cost down. I will do my best to be able to offer you all the the best possible price.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 7:22:18 PM EDT
I'd say the m1a market is a good place to start off. .308's are getting more popular but the consistant complaint is "Ugh its too heavy".

I would talk to Fred of fredsm14stocks.com, he moves a LOT of product and he knows the stocks better then anyone else.

Heck its his business, and the carbon fiber thing comes up rather often in m-14 circles. He may be veeeery interested in such a thing.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 7:27:29 PM EDT
I will get in contact with him this week.

Thank you for the contact!
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 7:29:43 PM EDT
I think a carbon fiber stock for an 11-87 would be great but no one else would probably agree with me.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 7:32:42 PM EDT
What about simple bulk CF sheets, something that, say, kinfe scales could be cut from? 12"x12" square and say 3/16" thick?
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 7:41:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CS223:
What about simple bulk CF sheets, something that, say, kinfe scales could be cut from? 12"x12" square and say 3/16" thick?



To do what with? Are you talking about prepreg or hard sheets?
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 7:45:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 8:09:16 PM EDT
What kinds of resins do you have available to take the heat? I'm partial to RS's HTR-212.

Dave
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 9:46:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 9:51:07 PM EDT by PeteCO]
Just checked my stock - I have some Kevlar 49 and e-glass here at the house. I might just have to try a prototype glass stock for the shotty, and if that works well I could go with graphite.

My Rem 870 buttstock has been butchered pretty badly, since my ideal LOP is the same as the Remington 870 youth model. I just kept sawing-off the wood stock and eventually broke a screw in it. I also like tactical cool black stuff.

I figured I might just foam-core the buttstock - what do you think? I know I won't get that neat shiny finished appearance but I'm wayyyyy too lazy to make a mold - vac bagging might help a bt, eh? Thoughts?

Or, you could just market 870 buttstocks - put me down for 2 of them. Oh, and I'm in for a M1A stock for sure.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 9:52:45 PM EDT
You could probably sell a boatload of carbon fiber M-14 handguards. That part is begging to be made from carbon fiber. I'd also love to have a lightweight M14 stock.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 9:59:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 10:00:27 PM EDT by TheOtherDave]

Originally Posted By PeteCO:

I figured I might just foam-core the buttstock - what do you think? I know I won't get that neat shiny finished appearance but I'm wayyyyy too lazy to make a mold - vac bagging might help a bt, eh? Thoughts?




You can make a mold in an afternoon with plexiglass, modeller's clay and Bondo. It will stay straight for about 2 weeks before the bondo starts to move and warp.

Dave

ETA: this is how I make a production mold: www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87950&highlight=1%2F2A+Sliver
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:02:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

Originally Posted By PeteCO:

I figured I might just foam-core the buttstock - what do you think? I know I won't get that neat shiny finished appearance but I'm wayyyyy too lazy to make a mold - vac bagging might help a bt, eh? Thoughts?




You can make a mold in an afternoon with plexiglass, modeller's clay and Bondo. It will stay straight for about 2 weeks before the bondo starts to move and warp.

Dave

ETA: this is how I make a production mold: www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87950&highlight=1%2F2A+Sliver



Thanks for the pointer! All I'm really experienced with is moldless sandwich, but I am interested in stuff that hass that gloss or very smooth matte surface on carbon fiber. Cool stuff - I'll check your website often.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:05:13 PM EDT
Actually, this is my website: www.fastcomposites.com
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:08:30 PM EDT
Yeah it seems like the demand is large in the m14 area, but thats mainly becuase everyone wishes thier rifle was a couple pounds lighter.

If you could shave a pound or so off the fiberglass stock I don't think you could keep the damn things in stock.

My only serious recommendation is that you try and find some way to reduce the glare of the carbon fiber.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:10:20 PM EDT
While I would like an M1A stock in CF, I would love to have a CF M1 Garand stock (ever carry one? Then you know what I am talking about).

I also would like CF gun cases though I suppose you can get a CF briefcase and hog it out, but nothing I know is made expressly for firearms. How about a CF tripod?

And while I have seen one, I would really be interested in a CF AR-15 barrel for my super lightweight project!
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:13:14 PM EDT
Forgot to add: With the plexiglass/bondo method, your plug will have to be split down the centerline with dowels to hold it together. Once this is done you split them, mount them to the plexiglass, seal the perimiter with clay, wax and release (PVA) them, slop your bondo, and repeat for the other half. When they are cured, you pop the mold halves off the plugs and plexiglass, join the plugs halves together again, slip the molds onto the plug and transfer drill from one side to the other.

There ya go, mold in a day and they hold up a lot longer than 2 weeks if your parts don't have to be joined in the mold with a taped or wet seam. Oh, before your mold halves are cured, drape some glass cloth on them, wet your hand with alcohol and rub it down. Makes for a nicer external finish on your mold and easier to handle when making parts.


Dave
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:13:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2005 10:23:26 PM EDT by PeteCO]

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Actually, this is my website: www.fastcomposites.com



I know yours isn't the RC Car site

Already have the above bookmarked, I'll check for updates periodically.

I was going to attempt this in a few months:
bateau2.com/content/view/114/
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:16:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:

My only serious recommendation is that you try and find some way to reduce the glare of the carbon fiber.




That's easy enough... you just don't paint the parts with clearcoat after they come out of the mold... Carbon cloth doesn't look like that when you pop it out of the mold. It looks like what it is, carbon woven cloth suspended in a glue matrix.

Dave
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:16:21 PM EDT
Tagged.



Vulcan94
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:21:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vedubin01:
thank you and please let me know. To make a mold off of something would run about $400 or so, then the cost of making the product. You would be looking at about 1 per day based off of 1 mold. If the demand is there maybe we could talk numbers and see if you think it would be worth getting into.



If you are making a serious go of production parts, you can do quite a few more parts than 1 per day. Pre-Preg cloth, short cure time glues, autoclaves and ovens etc. can really bump your production rate to the point that with two molds you can be cycling 2 molds almost contiuously.

Dave

BTW, I don't know of anyone who would make a mold for $400.......
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:37:22 PM EDT
FYI, my wooden M1a stock, without sling but with sling attach D-rings, metal action mating blocks, and metal buttplate comes in at 2 pounds, 15 ounces. So figure 3 pounds just for the damn stock - wow.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:39:03 PM EDT
Thats about a third of the wieght of the rifle right there.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:42:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Thats about a third of the wieght of the rifle right there.



Yeah, and with it off the rifle you can definitely tell all the weight is toward the butt with that metal folding plate and solid, 1.5 inch thick wood. A walnut one weighs more I'm sure.

I once had a GI synthetic stock and it was much heavier than I thought it should have been - solid plastic, probably glass-filled.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 10:43:53 PM EDT
I wouldn't be surprised if the synthetic fiberglass stock is 2 and a half pounds with paint on it.
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