Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 9/29/2011 3:38:47 PM EST
Hypothetical question...

Say in school, you're getting bullied, including physical bullying (spitwads, messing with your backpack, ect... but not getting beaten up.). Say there isn't an adult that can help you, they are either unable or unwilling. Say the administration refuses to deal with it.

Does your school permit you to take reasonable action to stop the bullying yourself? (ie; standing up for yourself?)

My school did not. You were expected to "be the bigger person", "walk away", and generally subject to the same treatment as the perpetrator if you retaliated or tried to defend yourself.

I always felt this was very wrong. Especially since you are stuck in school and have no practical way of avoiding someone if they want to harass you.


I'm curious what other people's experiences have been....
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:41:03 PM EST
I can take 'em.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:43:27 PM EST
Fuck the school policy!

My kids have permission to defend themselves if they cannot extricate from the problem.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:44:03 PM EST
been 12-15 years or so, but I beat the shit out of a few bullies and nothing was said or done (I was 5'3" and about 115lbs in high school), mostly because my retalliation was unexpected and most people were probably too worried about their reputation to let it be known my little self whooped em up.

My son is almost 3 and his daycare had a biter that they refused to do something about, I told my son how to fix it,and did so in front of the owner and his teacher. after the other kid got clobbered on the head a few times by my monster, they said the biting has stopped.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:44:23 PM EST
I always liked my friend's dad's approach.

If you get in a fight and lose, you are grounded. If you win, steak dinner.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:44:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By MultipleFractures:
Fuck the school policy!

My kids have permission to defend themselves if they cannot extricate from the problem.


This.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:45:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cuzsis:
Hypothetical question...

Say in school, you're getting bullied, including physical bullying (spitwads, messing with your backpack, ect... but not getting beaten up.). Say there isn't an adult that can help you, they are either unable or unwilling. Say the administration refuses to deal with it.

Does your school permit you to take reasonable action to stop the bullying yourself? (ie; standing up for yourself?)

My school did not. You were expected to "be the bigger person", "walk away", and generally subject to the same treatment as the perpetrator if you retaliated or tried to defend yourself.

I always felt this was very wrong. Especially since you are stuck in school and have no practical way of avoiding someone if they want to harass you.


I'm curious what other people's experiences have been....



Confront him, hit him if you have too, just don't back down and act like a victim, that is what he wants. If you resist, even if you lose a physical confrintation, he knows you'll fight back and aren't an easy target anymore.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:47:48 PM EST
There are times in life when you just have to stick a 2x4 up your back
and start handing out knuckle sandwiches.......
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:49:39 PM EST
never got picked on. I was 5'1" and 390 of pure muscle.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:52:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 3:53:04 PM EST by fourteenpointfive]
At every school I went to you were expected to run, or if that wasn't possible, curl up into the fetal position (seriously, they said that). If you at all stood up, even just pushing the bully away from you, you received the exact same if not worse suspension.

FWIW my dad always told me if I got suspended for fighting a bully he'd make sure my days off were "comfortable." All my fights were out of the eye of teachers luckily...
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:54:24 PM EST
I've never let a school policy stand in the way of teaching my kids how to handle situations life throws at you.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:55:39 PM EST
Back in the day, fighting wasn't always an automatic suspension. Only suspensions (in or out of school) went on your permanent record. If you wanted to get into a high-end college, having suspensions on your record was not exactly a good idea.

Nowadays, I doubt they are so permissive. How does one balance a zero-tolerance fighting policy with preserving your school record?
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 3:58:21 PM EST
These things were handled after school.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:01:48 PM EST
My son was having issues with bullies in the 5th grade. He was standing up for himself and got in trouble for it (he was fighting back when attacked). I took him to the principals office the next morning for a meeting. We walked in to her office and I closed the door. The meeting went something like this. I calmly asked my son to explain his side of the story then I asked her for her side of the story.

She went on about it being in policy that you can not fight back. If you throw a punch in self defense you are still fighting. At this point I produced a Utah Code book and I asked her where she got the authority to superseded state law.

She started to back pedal and say it was an unwritten rule. I told her that my son will not be subject to unwritten rules and I excused him to go to class(sometimes it really bothers principals when you take charge of situation). We had a little longer discussion where I pointed out that the University of Utah had tried to go against state law in regards to CCW and they lost. So if she kept it up we would wind up in court and the outcome was predetermined. I also mentioned that if she tried to stop my son from self defense she was personally responsible for his safety.

I was calm and diplomatic through the whole process. You could see that no one had ever questioned the "policy" before. Is there some law that exempts the schools from the self defense laws in Utah? I don't know and neither does she. My son had no more problems with her the rest of the year.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:05:32 PM EST
The teachers at my Kids' shools hate me. I've told my kids right in front of their teachers that sometimes violence is necessary and they shouldn't be afraid to use it when appropriate. The looks I get are priceless.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:05:46 PM EST
Another reason to homeschool.

My kids are taught self-defense, and offensive attacks as well. They are taught when to use them.
So far (3 of them) get guns to carry/keep at 15 years old; and are given a pistol for their 18th birthday.

We live on a farm, so wearing a beltgun around is pretty normal.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:07:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By stockshift:
Back in the day, fighting wasn't always an automatic suspension. Only suspensions (in or out of school) went on your permanent record. If you wanted to get into a high-end college, having suspensions on your record was not exactly a good idea.

Nowadays, I doubt they are so permissive. How does one balance a zero-tolerance fighting policy with preserving your school record?


I would rather my kids grow up with the knowledge that they don't ever have to run from aggression, even if it means they don't get in to Harvard. ( I can't afford that shit anyway.)

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:15:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 4:18:10 PM EST by HogJaws]
My hippie parents made a doormat out of me. It wasn't so much the school policy as it was the rule at home. No violence. So I'd head off to school knowing what was in store, and also knowing that nothing could be done about it. Therefore not only did I attract bullies at school, but in the neighborhood as well. You'd think that after the 50th time your kid came home all scuffed up with tears streaming down that you'd try a different approach. But nay. Hippies are hippies are hippies.

Well, all of their effort didn't stick, I'd finally had enough. They did not raise another hippy. A kid named Mike Emery knows that full well, don't you Mike you fucking POS.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:22:46 PM EST
I was bullied pretty much 1st through 8th grade. I wasnt for lack of size as I was bigger than anyone in my grade and most of the time the one above me as well. I did what I was told and walked away every time. The school essentially did nothing. Well one day in 8th I beat the piss(literally) out of one of my tormentors. 2 day suspension, but I never went back. I was home school until for the next year and a half. Couldnt stand my mother anymore so I elected to go back to school for my sophmore year. Got into 2 fights my sophmore year and had a few other confrontations that didnt quite turn into a fight. I never developed a reputation as one of the bad kids or a fighter and I was never clear of bullies either. I doubt schools have gotten any smarter as how to deal with this shit, not sure their even is a solution. I know I gonna give my boy very clear instructions. Never start a fight but feel free to finish one and if I ever find out hes bullying anyone I will beat his ass myself.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:26:58 PM EST
This happened to our son a couple of years a go in 2nd grade. Kid would come up to him and punch him on the playground. He'd tell the teacher but nothing was done. He'd come home asking for advice and I told him if he sees the kid coming go stand by the teacher or do anything to get away from him. Didn't work and he kept getting punched. I told him "Look, try your best to stay away from him but if you have absolutely no choice and he punches you then you have a right to defend yourself." He got upset and said that would be fighting and he'd get in trouble.

I can't blame him, he was trying to obey the school rules so Mrs. Cottonbaler and I went to speak with the guidance counselor and his teacher to express our frustrations. I told them if he's being bullied he has my permission to defend himself. Guidance counselor didn't like that and gave me the liberal gobbledygook about teaching the kids to respect their peers and how they use "conflict resolution" to solve these problems.

I told her "Bullshit. If my son does everything to get away from this kid but has no choice but to defend himself...that is NOT fighting, it is DEFENSE and if I get a phone call saying my son was fighting then I'm coming down here and ripping someone's ass for failing to properly supervise kids on the playground. My son doesn't start fights but if he has to he'll finish it and I'll support him 100%!"

Wife wasn't pleased that I took such a combative attitude with the G.C. and teacher. She didn't disagree but wanted me to be a little more diplomatic. fuck that. We're the parents and the school works for us, we don't bow down to them.

Fuck public school. We homeschool now and they can kiss my ass.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:35:26 PM EST
My son is a high school freshman this year, and a few years ago, he stood up to some kid bullying another kid on the school bus. He's tall but thin, not a bruiser by anyone's measure, but we had talked about bullying prior to it happening and I told him I'd never fault him if he stood up for someone weaker or smaller that was getting picked on. The day it happened, the bus driver commended him for doing it on the day it happened, as he was getting off the bus. Yeah, I was proud of him.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:41:35 PM EST
I was part of what must have been one of the last generation to go through some school (In England) before violence became totally unacceptable. On the opposite side of this, bullying... very violent bullying... was generally tolerated. Lost a few teeth and still have a slightly off-centre nose from being thrown against walls, punched, etc.

That school was a mess. We had the police in a few times to arrest pupils for assault on teachers, including one that pushed the headteacher (principle) down the stairs, hospitalising her. Those poor teachers suffered a lot! I remember witnessing one being punched in the face by an irate parent, angry that her son (a dreadful bully, FWIW) was being accused of disruptive behaviour.

Eventually it switched to the usual anti-bullying, non-violence approach. Of course, it didn't work, or at least it didn't back in the early days of it. I think it's more about psychological bullying these days, and that's probably worse in some ways as appearance and social status have become ever more important here. Nobody enjoyed having the shit kicked out of themselves, but we didn't feel alienated by it... eh, well, I can't quite describe it, but there is something of a gulf between the two forms.

It's amazing what kids will do to others. I did spend some time at a place where a bit of sexual bullying happened. The boy having a broom handle forced up his bum is particularly memorable. Before my time, but some of the older guys said there were a few rapes at one point. All male on male. Luckily I was with a group that didn't tolerate it. No, it wasn't juvie, but a lot of the kids present had been sent there via our equivalent. It was just seen as funny and rarely discussed.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 7:45:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 7:47:19 PM EST by Ohio]
Originally Posted By Cottonbaler:

Fuck public school. We homeschool now and they can kiss my ass.




Good on you, my friend.

People tell me my kids won't be socialized. I tell them I don't want to raise socialists, so that's fine.
The real bottom line is that I don't want them assimilated into what the public schools teach as social mores, (like most of you) and so I teach them myself what real men and women should be. Fuck the public sector teaching that passive surrender is the proper social response.

ETA: So far, the oldest two have turned in 6 quarters of Dean's List scores (in 2 years each), and have been held up by professors and upperclassmen as good citizens. I R proud.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 7:53:57 PM EST
I worry that our three will be the bullies (boy 12, boy 14, and girl 14 years old), I'm always preaching about reining it in a bit and keeping things under control, bunch of damn over confident, sports playing, competitive alphas in that crew. I don't worry about them getting the short end, I worry about who they are going to run over on the way to the finish.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 7:55:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
I worry that our three will be the bullies (boy 12, boy 14, and girl 14 years old), I'm always preaching about reining it in a bit and keeping things under control, bunch of damn over confident, sports playing, competitive alphas in that crew. I don't worry about them getting the short end, I worry about who they are going to run over on the way to the finish.


And that's your fault, now isn't it?
Maybe you should have worked on ethics and empathy somewhere in the past, eh?
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 8:07:20 PM EST
I had to get my hands registered, and a class 3 license for my biceps.


Link Posted: 9/29/2011 8:09:23 PM EST
Nope


but I told my boys to nyways, they get suspended (in KG and G1 ) and we go quadding and hunting
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 8:22:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 8:57:37 PM EST by LANCEMAN]

Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
I worry that our three will be the bullies (boy 12, boy 14, and girl 14 years old), I'm always preaching about reining it in a bit and keeping things under control, bunch of damn over confident, sports playing, competitive alphas in that crew. I don't worry about them getting the short end, I worry about who they are going to run over on the way to the finish.


And that's your fault, now isn't it?
Maybe you should have worked on ethics and empathy somewhere in the past, eh?



Got any kids that have hit puberty? Holy hell, teenage hormones should be a Class 1 mood altering drug, I can't wait till they have kids of their own so they can get some payback. I'm proud of them for it in a way, is being more dominate and showing leadership qualities a bad thing these days? My main concern is they are dominate in any group they are in and others follow them easily, that trait needs to carry some responsibility along with it, that is a situation that is easily abused in life (relationships, work, military, etc, you name it).

I wouldn't call them unethical, gotta watch how far you go on the empathy though, too much and they turn into liberals. I know without a doubt we have some hardcore, conservative, Democrat hating nut jobs on our hands here

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 8:26:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By MultipleFractures:
Fuck the school policy!

My kids have permission to defend themselves if they cannot extricate from the problem.


Mine do to!!!!!!!
As long as he didn't start the conflict, he has permission to open the largest can of whoop ass that will stop the bully in his tracks!
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 8:29:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 8:30:30 PM EST by edb66]
All I'm gonna say is if you want to bully someone, don't pick the kid on crutches, you might not get your balls out of the way fast enough. The three day vacation was worth it.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 8:30:02 PM EST
I was bullied a little when I was young. Mom's answer was to hold me back one year so I could be with people closer to my age (I was 4th grade so it wasn't a big issue) and move me to a private school for 3 years.

When I got back to public school there wasn't much trouble.


One of my navy friends said he got bullied a lot (this was the 80s though) and said he finally just slammed one of them into a locker. In sightof a teacher. My friend claimed it was "so smooth a move that the teacher never noticed." I always figured the teacher ignored it on purpose cos hey sometimes bullies have it coming.


These days... it depends on the level of abuse.

Someone just being a jerk? Get over it, you'll survive.
But someone harassing you just short of actually touching you... you may want to consider what laws are in place that will protect your rights.

and no i'm not talking about say calling the cops just because johnny said you smell funny. again.
but involving the law if it gets to a point where you feel your safety may be in question, especially if it seems that the abuse is going to escalate to that level.


But for someone just being mean sometimes... meh.
If anything I just look back at my high school and realize....

1) The biggest nerd in my class is a computer admin and is probably making $$$$$.
2) One of the biggest jocks (class ahead of me) supposedly got sent to prison for fucking an underage girl.
3) Everyone else... they've grown up. Mostly. Or at least they don't bother me.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 10:48:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:

Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
I worry that our three will be the bullies (boy 12, boy 14, and girl 14 years old), I'm always preaching about reining it in a bit and keeping things under control, bunch of damn over confident, sports playing, competitive alphas in that crew. I don't worry about them getting the short end, I worry about who they are going to run over on the way to the finish.


And that's your fault, now isn't it?
Maybe you should have worked on ethics and empathy somewhere in the past, eh?



Got any kids that have hit puberty? Holy hell, teenage hormones should be a Class 1 mood altering drug, I can't wait till they have kids of their own so they can get some payback. I'm proud of them for it in a way, is being more dominate and showing leadership qualities a bad thing these days? My main concern is they are dominate in any group they are in and others follow them easily, that trait needs to carry some responsibility along with it, that is a situation that is easily abused in life (relationships, work, military, etc, you name it).

I wouldn't call them unethical, gotta watch how far you go on the empathy though, too much and they turn into liberals. I know without a doubt we have some hardcore, conservative, Democrat hating nut jobs on our hands here




I have a 20 yo son (Eagle Scout), an 18 yo daughter (dean's list and nurse) and a 15 yo son. Another 10 and 5 yo daughters.
Enough to get some cred from you?
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 10:53:22 PM EST
Most likely the bully will get bored if you don't fight back. If you do fight you'll probably get beat up. If the guy is able to beat me up in the first place I probably won't have much of a chance.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 10:56:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Delta_01245:
Most likely the bully will get bored if you don't fight back. If you do fight you'll probably get beat up. If the guy is able to beat me up in the first place I probably won't have much of a chance.


Catch him off campus, in an alley, with a club.

Entirely a different story then.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 10:58:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By Delta_01245:
Most likely the bully will get bored if you don't fight back. If you do fight you'll probably get beat up. If the guy is able to beat me up in the first place I probably won't have much of a chance.


Catch him off campus, in an alley, with a club.

Entirely a different story then.


Yeah, and then most likely you'll be going to jail or getting shot by someone with a ccw because your attacking a guy in an alley with a club...
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:01:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
There are times in life when you just have to stick grab a 2x4 up your back
and start handing out knuckle sandwiches busted heads.......



FIFY


Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:31:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Delta_01245:
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By Delta_01245:
Most likely the bully will get bored if you don't fight back. If you do fight you'll probably get beat up. If the guy is able to beat me up in the first place I probably won't have much of a chance.


Catch him off campus, in an alley, with a club.

Entirely a different story then.


Yeah, and then most likely you'll be going to jail or getting shot by someone with a ccw because your attacking a guy in an alley with a club...


Context matters. I am a kid, not a 49 yo man.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 3:24:05 AM EST
If I had a kid in school right now that was being bullied, I would tell the bully in front of his dad that if my kid got bullied even one more time, that I would kick the ever living shit out of his dad....

Makes me laugh to think of every time I saw my neighbor, to taunt him or throw something at him, or take his cash he had on him....
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 3:48:44 AM EST
The only method apparently sanctioned by schools these days is to wait until your kid is turned into hamburger, then sue the ass off everyone involved.

Many districts have taken leave of anything approaching sense, and only understand things when they're tied to a lawsuit.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 3:50:29 AM EST
I was bullied in high school. Teach your kid to fight and kick the shit out of whoever. I wish my parents had. The abuse stayed with me for a looong time.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 4:03:32 AM EST
The schools in my area have SRO (school resourse officers) so if you get involved in a fight its not just suspension with the school its a county court date.

Luckly both of my sons seem to be well liked and havent had a issue with bullys. But I have told both of them not to put up with it and I will support them fully in

defending themself.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 4:10:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Cuzsis:
Hypothetical question...

Say in school, you're getting bullied, including physical bullying (spitwads, messing with your backpack, ect... but not getting beaten up.). Say there isn't an adult that can help you, they are either unable or unwilling. Say the administration refuses to deal with it.

Does your school permit you to take reasonable action to stop the bullying yourself? (ie; standing up for yourself?)

My school did not. You were expected to "be the bigger person", "walk away", and generally subject to the same treatment as the perpetrator if you retaliated or tried to defend yourself.

I always felt this was very wrong. Especially since you are stuck in school and have no practical way of avoiding someone if they want to harass you.


I'm curious what other people's experiences have been....


walking away works to a point. When I was in HS I remember this kid named Carl, skinny short black kid that looked like erkel but skinnier and now I realize he had autism. dudes fucked with him constantly.


Carl ALWAYS wore his backpack even sitting in the seat. One day some idiot thought it would be funny to snap the waist strap to his desk. Carl had a special job in chemistry, he passed out papers. Carl went to get up not knowing he was attached he slipped and stumbled. The guy that did it laughed the hardest. Carl beat the dogshit out of this kid, I mean rage on don't stop til your out of gas. He fucked him up good. Nothing happened to Carl. This was in 1990 or so.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 4:13:10 AM EST
My kids' school has kind of a strange policy on that. They won't tolerate it at all. Fighting is, of course, forbidden. A kid who is bullying gets to have a sit-down and explain, repeatedly and in great detail, exactly why he's doing something so dumb. It doesn't take long for the bully to figure out the punishment of having to not only explain his actions but also take accountability for them is just not so pleasant. They have plenty of staff on hand so if they need to tag-team the offender until his little head is ready to explode then that's the way they roll. Handshakes and apologies are mandatory. The goal is to build a sense of community within the school that makes the concept of harming a classmate socially unacceptable. "All for one, and one for all." is a concept that still has a place in society.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 4:15:25 AM EST
I told my 3 boys that if they defend themselves against bullies, or any other agressor, I will defend their actions if they get in trouble.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:14:09 AM EST
Good stories in this thread!

Yeah, that's been pretty much our take at home with our 7yr old son. Nobody is allowed to beat/attack him, and he is allowed to defend himself if they try. (He's already socked a kid who tried to strangle him, literally, at a local park, so he seems to have a good handle on things.) We told him we'd take care of any issues with the school.

It's disappointing and frustrating to see that schools, for the most part, demand that your child allow him/herself to be turned into hamburger and then sue the involved parties instead of stopping things themselves.

Thankfully state law is usually on your side so I suppose you could always take it to court if they defend themselves and get some land mark cases going...
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:37:20 AM EST
I try to teach my children how the criminal justice system works. Which includes one important concept - don't get caught.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:42:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 8:44:19 AM EST by meltdown]
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:45:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 8:46:43 AM EST by bluezerosix]
Originally Posted By MultipleFractures:
Fuck the school policy!

My kids have permission to defend themselves if they cannot extricate from the problem.


This.

And I want to see another student...male or female...try to "bully" my daughter...the ass-whoopin' she'd dole out would be epic.

She's an incredibly fit soccer player who also runs and does weight training...extremely strong & very nimble on her feet and would take the term "football" to a whole new level against a male.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:47:28 AM EST
no, it does not. assault with a deadly weapon is assault with a deadly weapon whether you are 16 or 60.

you could still be shot.

plenty of bangers are "kids" committing violent acts.

don't be so confident of "context"

Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By Delta_01245:
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By Delta_01245:
Most likely the bully will get bored if you don't fight back. If you do fight you'll probably get beat up. If the guy is able to beat me up in the first place I probably won't have much of a chance.


Catch him off campus, in an alley, with a club.

Entirely a different story then.


Yeah, and then most likely you'll be going to jail or getting shot by someone with a ccw because your attacking a guy in an alley with a club...


Context matters. I am a kid, not a 49 yo man.


Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:47:34 AM EST
Never start a fight.

Always finish it.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:50:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
The only method apparently sanctioned by schools these days is to wait until your kid is turned into hamburger, then sue the ass off everyone involved.

Many districts have taken leave of anything approaching sense, and only understand things when they're tied to a lawsuit.


When a school system finds out that they are no longer responsible for providing an education because they are now retiring kids for life via lawsuits they will smarten up.

Why do you need to finish school after the courst have awarded you enough to live on for life?
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top