Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 9/1/2004 6:09:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 6:13:16 PM EST by urbankaos04]
Okay, from what LIMITED information I have off the top of my head, CHECHNYA is/was part of the Soviet Union. However, when the Soviet Union began to crumble Chechnya wanted to break away from the Soviet Union. But the old Russkies weren't having that and decided to keep Chechnya--by force. And from what I understand, they sure did a number on those people. Sooo, if this is the gist of the conflict, Chechnya trying to gain its freedom, why is it that that Chechnya is being portrayed as the bad guy? Of course, the school thing isn't exactlymaking them seem like freedom fighter, but what about prior to this incident? Haven't the Russians killed a lot of innocent civvies trying to control that country? I just want to know what the hell started that whole mess over? It wasn't over religion, right?
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:09:52 PM EST
In a word. RELIGION
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:12:50 PM EST
So, did Russia want to stomp out the Chechnyan's because they were Muslims? I really thought it was because they wanted to break away from Russia. Hmmm, think I'm gonna research this a little.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:13:54 PM EST
Chechnya hates Russia because it has allowed the Christian religion to come into the country.


It's a typical Muslim versus Christian thing.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:15:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 6:18:03 PM EST by Biggame223]
THIS is a definate factor............and the Chechens are just well.......Chechen.

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:16:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:18:07 PM EST
Here, I found a little info:

Chechen resistance to the Russian conquest of the Caucasus, beginning in the 19th century, was prolonged and bloody. Then, in 1944, Stalin deported almost the entire population, roughly 400,000 people, to Central Asia, where many died. This legacy helps explain why Chechen nationalism has been more radical and anti-Russian than that of Russia's other Muslim ethnic minorities.

When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the Chechens, led by Gen. Dzhokhar Dudayev, deposed the old Soviet leadership of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Republic and seized power in Grozny, the capital. But there was no real authority, and criminal groups (the so-called Chechen Mafia) and armed radicals dominated. The resulting anarchy was one reason Russia felt that Chechnya, which was never a separate republic, could not become independent. Russia was also determined not to undermine its territorial integrity or to encourage other areas to secede.

In 1994, President Boris N. Yeltsin decided that Chechnya must again be under Moscow's control, and later that year began a full military intervention. The war shattered the Chechen economy and left behind armed, unemployed and brutalized young Chechens. Atrocities committed by Russian troops also helped radicalize ordinary Chechens.


Here's the link: www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6531-5.cfm
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:18:10 PM EST
IIRC Chechnya actually HADconsiderable autonomy, practically "independence" in the early 90s, but the country completely dissolved into anarchy, and the Russians sent in troops because they didn't want a country in chaos on their border.

That sparked a new seperatist movement, which is the one they are fighting now. Clearly, the seperatist movement is a extremist muslim one.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:24:37 PM EST
After reading some other stuff, it basically seems that the Chechnya couldn't keep it together and the movement to become independent was bascically turned into something else by people with other agendas. At least that's what I get from reading this and other stuff. Whatever the cause for the conflict, current events are NOT gonna help them much.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:31:46 PM EST
We would do well to "join" with the Russians in working to eliminate the radical Musilim threat.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:35:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 6:39:51 PM EST by raven]

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
It is "Chechen".
The Chechens are being portrayed as the bad guy because they are not freedom fighters. They are Muslim Terrorists. Just this morning they took a school ful of children hostage. Last year it was a Russian theater with 400 people in it.
I learned this from the Moscow Times. At least in the past, you could not learn the truth about the Chechens from Western media. You had to go elsewhere. I don't know how much of the current full truth is being told on TV, since I don't watch TV much.



Didn't always use to be that way. After the USSR collapsed in 1991 for good, the Chechen independence was led by secular, intellectual, western-oriented advocates, mostly ex-Soviet politicians. Russia crushed them mercilessly, which attracted the interest of jihadists who were veterans of Afghanistan and looking for a new war to defend the Muslim Ummah (global community). They found it in Chechnya.

With their connections to basically unlimited funds from the Persian Gulf (the same folks who had been funding muhajandeen in Afghanistan in the 80's), the jihadis really started kicking the Russians' ass. Russia finally retreated for good in what? 1995? 1996? Only after some very brutal fighting culminating in the battle of Grozny in 1994.

So the Russians basically gave up, and the Chechens basically had their independence. But there was a problem. The faction that had the soldiers, the resources, the money, the weapons, and the motivation to rule Chechnya were not the people who started the independence movement. They were hardcore wahabi extremeists led by guys like Basayevand Khattab. And they basically wanted to turn Chechnya into another Taliban style sharia Islamic state, and use it as a base to spread militiant Islam into other regions of the former USSR, and they began doing exactly that ever since.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:36:02 PM EST
If The Neutral Observer remembers correctly, the short version goes something like this:

The Russians took over Chechnya sometime in the 1600s-1700s. Chechens have always been assholes, pulling this terrorism shit and killing Russian civilians and soldiers, since they were taken over (not that they did anything with the land but herd goats before that). Stalin rounded every last one of them up and sent them to Siberia, but after Stalin's death they were allowed to all come home, effectively erasing what Stalin had done to solve the problem (yeah...but, Stalin's solution did work).

So there was low-level terrorism there again until the breakup of the Soviet Union, but the Red Army and the Soviet internal security apparatus kept anything major from happening. On the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Chechens made their move. Being that there is a lot of oil and resources down there, the Russians wanted to hold on to the area, sparking the first nasty war. This was in the early 1990s.

The Russians have pulled out and invaded and pulled out again a couple of times since, tried to incorporate the place into Greater Russia, make it a semi-independent puppet state, and all of that. The Chechens are still being typical muslim assholes about it, refusing to accept any compromise and are busily killing innocent civilians. Now the Russians are going to invade again, after this unpleasantness with the school. Hopefully they'll do the job properly this time.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:36:34 PM EST
The root of the problem is the muslim extremist religion.
Its that simple.
Come to think of it, there are very few conflicts in the world today that don't involve muslims.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:37:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
It is "Chechen".
The Chechens are being portrayed as the bad guy because they are not freedom fighters. They are Muslim Terrorists. Just this morning they took a school ful of children hostage. Last year it was a Russian theater with 400 people in it.
I learned this from the Moscow Times. At least in the past, you could not learn the truth about the Chechens from Western media. You had to go elsewhere. I don't know how much of the current full truth is being told on TV, since I don't watch TV much.



Didn't always use to be that way. After the USSR collapsed in 1991 for good, the Chechen independence was led by secular, intellectual, western-oriented advocates, mostly ex-Soviet politicians. Russia crushed them mercilessly, which attracted the interest of jihadists who were veterans of Afghanistan and looking for a new war to defend the Muslim Ummah (global community). They found it in Chechnya.

With their connections to basically unlimited funds from the Persian Gulf (the same folks who had been funding muhajandeen in Afghanistan in the 80's), the jihadis really started kicking the Russians' ass. Russia finally retreated for good in what? 1995? 1996? Only after some very brutal fighting culminating in the battle of Grozny in 1994.

So the Russians basically gave up, and the Chechens basically had their independence. But there was a problem. The faction that had the soldiers, the resources, the money, the weapons, and the motivation to rule Chechnya were not the people who started the independence movement. They were hardcore wahabi extremeists led by guys like Basayev and Khattab. And they basically wanted to turn Chechnya into another Taliban style sharia Islamic state, and use it as a base to spread militiant Islam into other regions of the former USSR, and they began doing exactly that ever since.



This too.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:40:13 PM EST
the chechens are radical islamic fascists. we are at war with radical islam.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:41:00 PM EST
Russia vs. Chechnya For Dummies

conflict.gq.nu/
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:42:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:44:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
It is "Chechen".
The Chechens are being portrayed as the bad guy because they are not freedom fighters. They are Muslim Terrorists. Just this morning they took a school ful of children hostage. Last year it was a Russian theater with 400 people in it.
I learned this from the Moscow Times. At least in the past, you could not learn the truth about the Chechens from Western media. You had to go elsewhere. I don't know how much of the current full truth is being told on TV, since I don't watch TV much.



Didn't always use to be that way. After the USSR collapsed in 1991 for good, the Chechen independence was led by secular, intellectual, western-oriented advocates, mostly ex-Soviet politicians. Russia crushed them mercilessly, which attracted the interest of jihadists who were veterans of Afghanistan and looking for a new war to defend the Muslim Ummah (global community). They found it in Chechnya.

With their connections to basically unlimited funds from the Persian Gulf (the same folks who had been funding muhajandeen in Afghanistan in the 80's), the jihadis really started kicking the Russians' ass. Russia finally retreated for good in what? 1995? 1996? Only after some very brutal fighting culminating in the battle of Grozny in 1994.

So the Russians basically gave up, and the Chechens basically had their independence. But there was a problem. The faction that had the soldiers, the resources, the money, the weapons, and the motivation to rule Chechnya were not the people who started the independence movement. They were hardcore wahabi extremeists led by guys like Basayevand Khattab. And they basically wanted to turn Chechnya into another Taliban style sharia Islamic state, and use it as a base to spread militiant Islam into other regions of the former USSR, and they began doing exactly that ever since.



Okay, so that's where it went wrong. Yeah, I always thought that the Chechens had a legit reason for the war, but I guess it was subverted by these guys.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:52:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
It is "Chechen".
The Chechens are being portrayed as the bad guy because they are not freedom fighters. They are Muslim Terrorists. Just this morning they took a school ful of children hostage. Last year it was a Russian theater with 400 people in it.
I learned this from the Moscow Times. At least in the past, you could not learn the truth about the Chechens from Western media. You had to go elsewhere. I don't know how much of the current full truth is being told on TV, since I don't watch TV much.



Didn't always use to be that way. After the USSR collapsed in 1991 for good, the Chechen independence was led by secular, intellectual, western-oriented advocates, mostly ex-Soviet politicians. Russia crushed them mercilessly, which attracted the interest of jihadists who were veterans of Afghanistan and looking for a new war to defend the Muslim Ummah (global community). They found it in Chechnya.

With their connections to basically unlimited funds from the Persian Gulf (the same folks who had been funding muhajandeen in Afghanistan in the 80's), the jihadis really started kicking the Russians' ass. Russia finally retreated for good in what? 1995? 1996? Only after some very brutal fighting culminating in the battle of Grozny in 1994.

So the Russians basically gave up, and the Chechens basically had their independence. But there was a problem. The faction that had the soldiers, the resources, the money, the weapons, and the motivation to rule Chechnya were not the people who started the independence movement. They were hardcore wahabi extremeists led by guys like Basayevand Khattab. And they basically wanted to turn Chechnya into another Taliban style sharia Islamic state, and use it as a base to spread militiant Islam into other regions of the former USSR, and they began doing exactly that ever since.



Okay, so that's where it went wrong. Yeah, I always thought that the Chechens had a legit reason for the war, but I guess it was subverted by these guys.



The Chechen people have always been terrorists. A few of their more farsighted leaders were not, but they were displaced by muslim terrorists, who mobilized and magnified the already existing terroristic tendancies of the people. These people were already hacking Russian children to peices with knives in the late-1950s.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 9:41:08 PM EST
As mentioned, the gist of it is that islam, the religion of peace and tolerance, is behind all this. These savages can't peacefully co-exist with anyone who disagrees with them and as such they resort to terror and barbarism.

Hopefully these latest incidents will cause Russia to throw down the gauntlet and make these pigs pay.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 11:15:07 PM EST
A little more faint light on a ridiculously complicated set of circumstances. Ossetia is the "country" where the hostage situation is taking place. Back during the first Gulf War I used to listen to my shortwave to various "News" services. Radio Moscow was even then proclaiming that the "bandits" in Ossetia were stirring up trouble, etc etc.

That greater area was absorbed by the Russian Empire into "Russia" at various times as the Russians moved to gain a warm water exit to the worlds oceans, to try to counter the British Empire, Crimean War, first invasions into Afghanistan and various Central Asian "Countries" (various "Stans"), Stalin and others found that depopulating areas and sending the people into otner areas was about the opnly way to suppress Nationalist movements. The Crimean Tatars are another group depopulated.

So you have a large area that has major Nationalist desires, the collapse of the Soviet/Russian Empire, and the coincidental rise of Islamofascism, (don't forget the Han Chinese are trying to extend their influence over a variety of other racial/ethnic and religious groudps in Sinkiang and Silk Road areas, and I hope the CIA was helping them). Depending on who you talk to, the Russians and we have recognized that these explosions were coming for the last 20 years or more.

DoD briefings in the late 70s predicted that the Soviets/Russians had oncoming demographic challenges. Like the percentages of ethnic Russians and Russian Speakers available for drafting into the Soviet forces was dropping rapidly, the majority of draftable youth were going to be coming from traditionally Moslem areas and they were getting religious indoctrination at young ages. Well, Soviet/Communist dogma was very anti-religion of any kind and now the oncoming majority of draftees were not only unable to speak Russian but they were becoming more and more active Moslem. Christians and Jews being people of the book were tolerable, but anti-religious Communists? Guess what's going to happen? So add to the mix the Russian invasion of Afghanistan where they were fighting Moslem freedom fighters.

And now Russia is trying to re-extend control of areas that don't like them.

Makes Northern Ireland seem simple.
Top Top