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Posted: 8/6/2017 11:13:23 PM EDT
I know that it was conclusively determined that Tillman was killed by friendly fire, but I just looked at his Wikipedia page today and had no idea that liberal pundits were openly saying that he had been murdered by his fellow soldiers because of his apparent opposition to the war and to President Bush. Does anyone remember that? I may have been too young at the time, but I feel like that would have been a pretty spectacular claim to have missed. All I remember thinking was that it was yet another tragic death of a hero.

Wikipedia Link

On July 26, 2007, Chris Matthews reported on Hardball that Tillman's death may have been a case of deliberate murder by Tillman's fellow soldiers – specifically that the bullet holes were tight and neat, suggesting a shot at close range. Matthews based his speculation on a report from the doctors who examined Tillman's body. The following day the Associated Press reported that a doctor who examined Tillman's body after his death wrote, "The medical evidence did not match up with the scenario as described",[30] also noting that the wound entrances appeared as though he had been shot with an M16 rifle from fewer than 10 yards (9.1 m) away. A possible motive was not identified. When officers and soldiers were asked during a criminal investigation, they said they were certain the shooting was accidental. According to one of his fellow soldiers, Tillman "was popular among his fellow soldiers and had no enemies."[30][31]

According to Prof. Michael I. Niman:[36]

As both wars droned on, Tillman, the picture perfect recruiting poster boy, evolved into somewhat of a wild card. With a Chomsky meeting on the horizon, there existed a very real possibility that Tillman might go public with his anti-war anti-Bush stance in the weeks leading up to the 2004 presidential election, dealing a fatal blow to the very foundation of the Bush administration's propaganda pyramid. That day, however, never came. On April 22nd, 2004, Tillman was killed on patrol in Afghanistan by three American bullets to the head.
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To members here who were in the Army at the time, what were people saying?

@Sylvan
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:16:06 PM EDT
[#1]
Not a service guy, but from what I have read and researched on the matter, this was not a case of murder.

It was a case of government cover up and not owning up to fucking up.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:28:53 PM EDT
[#2]
I was in high school at the time, and wouldn't enlist for another couple years. But from what I remember his unit was mistaken for enemies and took fairly heavy friendly fire resulting in his death. I've never heard that he was purposely fragged, and while obviously I wasn't there that sounds like bullshit by people pushing an agenda.

The controversy was that he was a poster child for the Army before his death, in that he gave up an awesome professional athlete career to serve his country. Later on it finally came out that he died from friendly fire and the good PR he gave the Army backfired and made the .mil look like shit.

It should go without saying, but CPL Tillman gave up a lot to serve when his country needed him, and he was a hero.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:30:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Military apparently knew it was friendly fire early on and did not disclose.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:32:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Opposed the war? Why the shit would someone that opposes the war join the Army as an 11B with Option 40?
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:34:00 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
Military apparently knew it was friendly fire early on and did not disclose.  
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that's what I understood:  Army knew it was fratricide but tried to cover up and make him look like a hero.

I never heard the conspiracy theory that he was murdered.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:36:13 PM EDT
[#6]
stonewall jackson died from friendly fire

it happens all the time in war

the number of guys killed in WWII by friendly fire is enormous, literally hundreds of thousands, one estimate is 21% of all casualties


people coming up with conspiracy theories isn't new either

without evidence, it's just pie in the sky
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:38:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Gov't cover-up.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:40:04 PM EDT
[#8]
never heard that bullshit - that he was murdered.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:40:38 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
Military apparently knew it was friendly fire early on and did not disclose.  
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This, also I think his brother, or some sort of relative was in the same battalion, .mil knew right away it was friendly fire but politics came into play and the true story did not come out for a bit.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:40:52 PM EDT
[#10]
The controversy is how much certain people in the DoD knew and when and how much they deliberately covered up. No one that has half of a brain believes that he was murdered. That is absolute fake news before "fake news" was a thing.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:44:55 PM EDT
[#11]
The wiki article suggests friendly fire can not happen by accident up close... really? In the heat of war and  fluid environment, mistakes can happen at all ranges.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:46:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not a service guy, but from what I have read and researched on the matter, this was not a case of murder.

It was a case of government cover up and not owning up to fucking up.
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this is 100% what's up. The gov lies to just lie.



Some folks on here believe the government.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:52:46 PM EDT
[#13]
If only there was a well researched book that covered the tragedy, and the Army's unforgivable cover-up, in depth.

Read "Where Men Win Glory". Pat was a pretty incredible person. Mcrystal, and the other staff officers who decided to lie about his death, are worthless cowards.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:52:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not a service guy, but from what I have read and researched on the matter, this was not a case of murder.

It was a case of government cover up and not owning up to fucking up.
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Not army, but was supporting an AH64 unit at the time.....   this is exactly how I understood it.   

Not trying to defend the liars, but the worst job in the .mil is breaking bad news to loved ones..... imagine how much harder that is when our troops die as a result of a fuckup.... 

Again, this should have been resolved honestly, but somewhere along the chain of command the decision was made to gloss it over and tell a BS story to "save face". 

This shit ALL comes out in the wash, and the tough job of honesty is the only way to not have this bite you in the ass.... yet I am sure some occifers will do the same in the future... you know, for "optics".  

RIP Pat, and all other brave men and women who have laid down their lives for us.  
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:28:45 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Opposed the war? Why the shit would someone that opposes the war join the Army as an 11B with Option 40?
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and walk away from a million dollar career to do it.

J-
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:33:01 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
Gov't cover-up.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:33:22 AM EDT
[#17]
Leftists lie.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:38:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The controversy is how much certain people in the DoD knew and when and how much they deliberately covered up. No one that has half of a brain believes that he was murdered. That is absolute fake news before "fake news" was a thing.
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This. And fuck leftist trying to use this for politics.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:41:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Opposed the war? Why the shit would someone that opposes the war join the Army as an 11B with Option 40?
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He was for the war before he was against it.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:43:38 AM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
This. And fuck leftist trying to use this for politics.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
The controversy is how much certain people in the DoD knew and when and how much they deliberately covered up. No one that has half of a brain believes that he was murdered. That is absolute fake news before "fake news" was a thing.
This. And fuck leftist trying to use this for politics.
Tillman was a leftist and his family are leftists.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:50:53 AM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
Tillman was a leftist and his family are leftists.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The controversy is how much certain people in the DoD knew and when and how much they deliberately covered up. No one that has half of a brain believes that he was murdered. That is absolute fake news before "fake news" was a thing.
This. And fuck leftist trying to use this for politics.
Tillman was a leftist and his family are leftists.
He did not fight and die for a leftist cause. He fought because he was a proud American.

I won't comment on his family because I don't think that would be right.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:51:13 AM EDT
[#22]
Fuck up killed him, then people involved actively tried to hide their fuckup including burning his uniform. Then people higher up in the COC covered up that fuckup and tossed around platitudes and medals to make their coverup stick. Then word got out.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:59:24 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Fuck up killed him, then people involved actively tried to hide their fuckup including burning his uniform. Then people higher up in the COC covered up that fuckup and tossed around platitudes and medals to make their coverup stick. Then word got out.
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I saw the uniform burning bit on Wikipedia. What was the purpose of that?
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 2:06:01 AM EDT
[#24]
This case, among others, should make you question everything that comes from the DOD.  They will lie and fabricate stories if they believe it will be good for recruiting or other reasons.  Psyops are real.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 2:06:50 AM EDT
[#25]
I don't know the details, and never served. But Tillman was a genuine American Patriot.

Put a very lucrative personal career in the NFL to the side, to serve his country. I got nothing but respect for him.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 2:19:17 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


that's what I understood:  Army knew it was fratricide but tried to cover up and make him look like a hero.

I never heard the conspiracy theory that he was murdered.
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this
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 2:26:06 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Tillman was a leftist and his family are leftists.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The controversy is how much certain people in the DoD knew and when and how much they deliberately covered up. No one that has half of a brain believes that he was murdered. That is absolute fake news before "fake news" was a thing.
This. And fuck leftist trying to use this for politics.
Tillman was a leftist and his family are leftists.
Really? A leftist walked away from fame and fortune to join the Army and voluntarily put himself in a shithole to put his life on the line? Pretty much every leftist I know or know of has nothing but contempt for a person like that.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 2:29:41 AM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:
Opposed the war? Why the shit would someone that opposes the war join the Army as an 11B with Option 40?
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Joined after 9/11 but before Iraq. Those words were attributed to Pat by his brother, also a Ranger, apparently while they were watching W's "shock and awe" campaign. "This war is so fucking illegal" I believe was the exact quote.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 3:03:16 AM EDT
[#29]
There was a documentary/movie made about Tillman. IIRC there was video of the ambush and they interviewed those serving next to him when he got hit (.50).
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 3:53:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Pat was not a leftist, he was an Atheist. BIG difference. IIRC he was all about going to Afghanistan, but was not happy at all about going to Iraq. The NFL network did a very good "A football Life" about him, in which they actually talked about him not liking being in his unit, or AO (I can't remember off the top of my head) and wanting to come back to football when he was done with his years. He got killed on his last tour.

I have heard of the murder conspiracy, but I don't think anything came of it.  The government wanted/needed a hero and used the incident to "create" one. Thing is, Pat, and his brother Kevin were already heroes. We all know what Pat left on the table, but everyone seems to forget that Kevin left baseball to join Pat in the fight against terror. From what I recall, Kevin was in AA ball with the Cleveland Indians, and had a good shot at the Big Show. I remember seeing what those two did like it was yesterday. Everyone in shock, that people would give up millions to fight for their country. Something people of my generation never saw. True fucking heroes.

From what the "real" report states, is that Pat was in convoy 1 , and Kevin in convoy 2. Coms were shit going through this pass, so communication was minimal between both convoys. Pat's convoy exited their vehicle's and went up top of a ridge. They got into a fire fight, and Pat was killed. I can not remember if we killed from the guys with him, or the convoy below, mistaking the guys up top as bad guys. Either way Kevin found out Pat was killed, and knew from the get go that he was killed by fratricide.

If you saw Pat's funeral, Kevin gets on stage, chugs a beer and says "Pats dead. He's fucking gone" then walks off. This was when we were still being told that Pat was killed by insurgents, and not friendly fire. Kevin, at that point, was basically on an order of silence, and was so pissed off, that's all he could say at his own brothers funeral.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 4:20:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
that's what I understood:  Army knew it was fratricide but tried to cover up and make him look like a hero.

I never heard the conspiracy theory that he was murdered.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Military apparently knew it was friendly fire early on and did not disclose.  
that's what I understood:  Army knew it was fratricide but tried to cover up and make him look like a hero.

I never heard the conspiracy theory that he was murdered.
This. There was a great documentary on this, but I can't recall the title of it.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 4:40:43 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Pat was not a leftist, he was an Atheist. BIG difference. IIRC he was all about going to Afghanistan, but was not happy at all about going to Iraq. The NFL network did a very good "A football Life" about him, in which they actually talked about him not liking being in his unit, or AO (I can't remember off the top of my head) and wanting to come back to football when he was done with his years. He got killed on his last tour.

I have heard of the murder conspiracy, but I don't think anything came of it.  The government wanted/needed a hero and used the incident to "create" one. Thing is, Pat, and his brother Kevin were already heroes. We all know what Pat left on the table, but everyone seems to forget that Kevin left baseball to join Pat in the fight against terror. From what I recall, Kevin was in AA ball with the Cleveland Indians, and had a good shot at the Big Show. I remember seeing what those two did like it was yesterday. Everyone in shock, that people would give up millions to fight for their country. Something people of my generation never saw. True fucking heroes.

From what the "real" report states, is that Pat was in convoy 1 , and Kevin in convoy 2. Coms were shit going through this pass, so communication was minimal between both convoys. Pat's convoy exited their vehicle's and went up top of a ridge. They got into a fire fight, and Pat was killed. I can not remember if we killed from the guys with him, or the convoy below, mistaking the guys up top as bad guys. Either way Kevin found out Pat was killed, and knew from the get go that he was killed by fratricide.

If you saw Pat's funeral, Kevin gets on stage, chugs a beer and says "Pats dead. He's fucking gone" then walks off. This was when we were still being told that Pat was killed by insurgents, and not friendly fire. Kevin, at that point, was basically on an order of silence, and was so pissed off, that's all he could say at his own brothers funeral.
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This kind of shit really pisses me off.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 4:42:36 AM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 4:44:40 AM EDT
[#34]
Pat Tillman, Jessica Lynch, Bowe Bergdahl.  I wonder how many fake war heroes there are.  Probably most of them.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 4:55:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Pat was at in-processing at Benning while I was going through AIT.  We got word that the NCO's (mostly DS's) were giving him shit and smoking him, a lot.  He was an athletic phenomenon and took everything they could throw at him.  When he got to his training unit, the training cadre simmered right the fuck down.  He gave a lot to be there and didn't deserve any "extra attention". 
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 5:32:23 AM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
Opposed the war? Why the shit would someone that opposes the war join the Army as an 11B with Option 40?
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...when he could have been playing in the NFL for million$.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 5:33:20 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The controversy is how much certain people in the DoD knew and when and how much they deliberately covered up. No one that has half of a brain believes that he was murdered. That is absolute fake news before "fake news" was a thing.
View Quote
This.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 5:34:14 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The wiki article suggests friendly fire can not happen by accident up close... really? In the heat of war and  fluid environment, mistakes can happen at all ranges.
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And IIRC he was actually engaged from at least several hundred meters away.

They were simply mistaken for bad guys and the guys engaging them had no way of PIDing who/what they were shooting at.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 5:34:17 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


If you saw Pat's funeral, Kevin gets on stage, chugs a beer and says "Pats dead. He's fucking gone" then walks off. This was when we were still being told that Pat was killed by insurgents, and not friendly fire. Kevin, at that point, was basically on an order of silence, and was so pissed off, that's all he could say at his own brothers funeral.
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It was Richard Tillman and the "he's fucking dead" was in reference to Shriver and McCain's remarks about Pat being with God.  Richard stated: "he'd want me to say this.  He's not with God he's fucking dead. He's not religious so, thanks for your thoughts but he's fucking dead."

He then (Richard) was paraded around left-wing outlets like Bill Maher's Real Time like he was a hero himself.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 5:34:33 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Tillman was a leftist and his family are leftists.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2017 5:37:45 AM EDT
[#41]
FPNI
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 6:00:22 AM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Military apparently knew it was friendly fire early on and did not disclose.  
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Not saying it's right but I understand why they wouldn't want to blast that news out there. It's about as bad of PR as it could be. 
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 6:43:09 AM EDT
[#43]
I was in my 20s & remember the controversy regarding Tillman:

The "poster boy," as the MSM reported was initially reported as "died valiantly fighting the enemy."

In a few days, maybe a week, it turned into a "breaking story--Pat Tillman killed by friendly fire" and it was simply reported his team of Rangers was mistaken for the enemy.

The focus back then from the MSM was about transponders that clearly ID friend from foe, and why weren't US soldiers & our allies given such tech, as it certainly existed.  The obvious issue of th enemy taking it from dead soldiers was the hot topic--NOTHING about him being disgruntled.

So, just like Snopes, Wikipedia is FOS. Caveat emptor.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 7:00:39 AM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Opposed the war? Why the shit would someone that opposes the war join the Army as an 11B with Option 40?
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And leave a million dollar contract.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 8:00:28 AM EDT
[#45]
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its early.  And this is GD
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 8:20:25 AM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Opposed the war? Why the shit would someone that opposes the war join the Army as an 11B with Option 40?
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Exactly. The war had begun when he quit football and enlisted.  The idea that he was opposed is pure libtardation.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 8:55:46 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Pat Tillman, Jessica Lynch, Bowe Bergdahl.  I wonder how many fake war heroes there are.  Probably most of them.
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I remember Jessica lynch real well, I got banned from another
gun site because I said her story was full of shit while everyone
else was praising her as a war hero so we got into a  very nasty argument.
didn't take long for the truth to come out and I was right.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 9:01:46 AM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I saw the uniform burning bit on Wikipedia. What was the purpose of that?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fuck up killed him, then people involved actively tried to hide their fuckup including burning his uniform. Then people higher up in the COC covered up that fuckup and tossed around platitudes and medals to make their coverup stick. Then word got out.
I saw the uniform burning bit on Wikipedia. What was the purpose of that?
His gear was treated as bio hazard...because it was.

He got lit up by a 50 while walking with armed (friendly) afghans.  

Frankly, the story was best left alone.  He died in war.  All the digging doesn't make it better.  A comforting story for his family could have brought closure that they won't get now.  

There is a reason commanding officers write letters about how bravely their son fought...not how he died crying for his mom.  Closure for the living...
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 9:11:14 AM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


His gear was treated as bio hazard...because it was.

He got lit up by a 50 while walking with armed (friendly) afghans.  

Frankly, the story was best left alone.  He died in war.  All the digging doesn't make it better.  A comforting story for his family could have brought closure that they won't get now.  

There is a reason commanding officers write letters about how bravely their son fought...not how he died crying for his mom.  Closure for the living...
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It's kinda hard to "leave the story alone" when his brother was there when he was killed.
Do you think he would have just let the lie continue?
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 9:18:09 AM EDT
[#50]
So Chris Matthews thinks Tillman was anti-war/anti-bush and was about to go public with his feelings so his fellow soldiers murdered him to protect Bush's "propaganda pyramid"?

Fuckin lol
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