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Posted: 8/30/2004 8:34:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:39:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 8:46:30 AM EST by Airwolf]
Because most of those screaming loudly for it have no real concept that the money comes from TAXPAYERS.

Anyone pushing for socialist style programs somehow thinks that the money just "magically appears". Either that or it will only be the "evil rich" that are forced to pay for it.

The solution to this bullshit has been proposed before. Make EVERYONE write a check to FEDGOV on April 15 for what they "owe" instead having them get a "refund" for what was withheld.

The gooberment will be a smoking hole in the ground by the afternoon of the 16th.

ETA:

Isn't it odd that many of the ones that call for socialist type "healthcare for all" are among those screaming loudest for abortion rights? I think abortion should be a last resort, not a form of birth control (and NOT paid for by the gooberment).

It's very odd that people that want to see everyone healthy and live long lives (on the taxpayers dime) are among those that are willing to abort a baby for other than purely medical reasons.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:39:44 AM EST
Simple. Because years ago when the Union were really powerful they made a whople bunch of unreasonable demands on companies. On way the companies tried to make these unions happy was to give them health care benefits. AFter a while people came to expect this as a "right".


Just another thing you can thank the socialist unions for.


SGatr15
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:47:25 AM EST
Little history lesson:

During WWII wage freezes were in affect. Companies that needed workers had to add other incentives. Health care was one.

Never went away and Unions have used it as such a bargaining chip that it now appears as a "right."

Most un-insured Americans choose to be un-insured because they're young students or young professionals who don't have it rolled into their job package. It's a choice, more money or coverage. They choose more money. Odds are, they're right.

Guilty rich liberals and their patsies.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:48:14 AM EST
It's because we have that many socialist thinking people here now. The typical welfare mentality. Instead of the right to persue happiness, people are somehow misinterpreting that to mean the right TO happiness and ease of living without having to work for it like all of our forefathers did. These people really need to be carefull of what they wish for. The may get it. That's when things are going to start the downslide at an increadible rate.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:50:31 AM EST
This is a hot button for me.

Health insurance is not a RIGHT. It is a product (in the most general sense). You pay the insurance company (or someone pays on your behalf), and the insurance company pays for medical care under a predetermined agreement negotiated and approved by you, the insurance company, and (in some cases) a group of health care providers.

If you have a bunch of money, you can buy a bunch of health insurance. If you don't have any money, you can't buy any health insurance. It works for apples, oranges, and most other things for which one person pays money to someone else.

Health care IS NOT A RIGHT. As with insurance, it is a product for which you pay (or someone else pays on your behalf). If you have a bunch of money, you can buy a bunch of health care. If you don't have any money, you can't buy any health care. No different from eggs, bacon, and milk.

Rights are always with regard to something which a person may do without interference, or something which other people may not do to him. I have the right to go where I want, when I want - within the limitation of other people's rights to be secure in their possessions. These rights are limited only by my own desire and resources.

Health care and education are examples of things the Left calls "rights", but which are limited by other people's desires and resources. If public education is a "right", why can't I have as much as I want, just as I may publish as many newspapers as I want?

I forget whose sigline says something about "Nothing can be called a right which REQUIRES action of the part of another, for this amounts to involuntary servitude". But it's true.

/rant
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:52:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:55:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:56:35 AM EST
Funny part is Medicare/Medicaid will often get you BETTER treatment than your paid third party health insurance will cover.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:57:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:58:22 AM EST
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness...

The libs seem to read that health care is an implicitly guaranteed right.

Too bad they do not read the 2nd Amendment the same way.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:59:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By wiggy762:

But what makes these idots think they can vote in socialized medicine!?!?!?!




Leftists are motivated mostly by self-flattery, and on some level, a messiah complex. It makes them feel better to "give" to someone the product of another's labors. Even if such product degrades demonstrably with socialism, it doesn't matter. They've done "good." That emotional feedback is the real reward.

They openly deny the fact that health care is goverened by the immutable laws of economics as anything else is - saying things like, "health care is a right, not a commodity." This declaration sets the stage in their favor, if people begin to believe it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:01:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brisk322:
I forget whose sigline says something about "Nothing can be called a right which REQUIRES action of the part of another, for this amounts to involuntary servitude". But it's true.



lokt has that sig and I agree with it.

This is another example of incrementalism.

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:01:53 AM EST
A buncha wimps who are afraid to die at a reasonable age. Instead, it their "right" to linger on as senile, drug dependant oversized babies who do nothing but drain away their children and grandchildren's earnings.

CKMorley
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:07:17 AM EST
Communist Goal #32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:19:59 AM EST
It's kind of simple, actually. Many people in this country today do not understand the constitution of the United States which clearly specifies what "rights" we have as Americans. These people confuse entitlements and priveledges with "rights".

How many times have we seen one of our pathetic excuses of a network news outlet giving airtime to one of these Bozos as they claim that their "constitutional rights" have been violated because they've been denied welfare, health care, medicaid, or some other entitlement that was established by the left leaning Democrat congresses of the past?

The population is becoming less educated, and more ignorant by the day. And these idiots are all allowed to vote, because that is one of their "rights". Too bad "responsibility for one's actions" wasn't a requirement for the exercise of that "right".
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:32:26 AM EST
The people with their hands out begging for money always want more. ALWAYS.
And there is a long list of politicians willing to buy their vote. With your money of course, not their own.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:52:43 AM EST
When you try to argue with them, you get to respond to "you heartless bastard. Are you going to look my 80 year old mother in the eye and tell her she has to die because you don't want to pay for another month of her pills?"
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:57:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 9:57:19 AM EST by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:28:44 AM EST
Under the ideological philosphy that formed the underpinnings of our American Revolution, 'rights' are not granted or 'permitted' by governments. They pre-exist.

In a 'state of nature' man has rights derived from his Creator. Freedom of action. Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. The inalienable right to self-defense. The right to assemble. The right to create a government of mutual consent. Ecetera.

Obviously, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, Madison, Jay, etc. failed to mention that a right to 'free' universal health care was a pre-existant right derived from the Creator.

Obviously it exists in a 'state of nature.' Simply examine the earliest democratic or republican societies!

Even Jesus. Is it not said in the New Testement that 'In my Father's house everyone gets Blue Cross / Blue Shield on the gub'mint's nickel'?

Throughout American history, every small community and society has provided every one of its members with totally free health care - at no expense to the individual. Haven't they?

And then, only with the coming of the e-v-i-l Republicans and their 'neo-con' minions has this essential right been denied to the now oppressed Americans.

Rise up and throw out Bush and the GOLDEN AGE will return!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:35:42 AM EST

But Kerry's ambitious health-care plan that would indeed cost an estimated $895 billion over 10 years. And Kerry has also promised to cut the current $500-billion federal deficit in half. Can he pay for all that while raising taxes only for the wealthy? Those numbers don't quite add.


www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=154

As always, it always starts as a "Tax the Rich" sceme but always falls back on the middle class.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:43:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Centauro97:
Little history lesson:

During WWII wage freezes were in affect. Companies that needed workers had to add other incentives. Health care was one.

Never went away and Unions have used it as such a bargaining chip that it now appears as a "right."

Most un-insured Americans choose to be un-insured because they're young students or young professionals who don't have it rolled into their job package. It's a choice, more money or coverage. They choose more money. Odds are, they're right.

Guilty rich liberals and their patsies.



+1
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:06:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 11:41:24 AM EST by Happyshooter]
Because a truly uninsured American, one who is not on medicare/medicaid, cannot afford health care.

60 percent cost is the governmental standard payment made to a provider (unless they fit in very specific ciscumstances). That means for each welfare treated the doctor or hospital gets paid half their cost of providing the treatment. Guess who pays 1) for their own treatment; 2) for the unpaid welfare; and 3) for the profit (the doctor's house and car)? You, and if you don't have insurance you can't afford it.

The government caused this mess.

PS: The hospitals that are special, usually specific urban centers, rural centers (both types have massive regulation requirements to qualify), and teaching hospitals, get 100% percent cost. That means they get paid 100% of what it costs to treat welfares, and still get to stick it to working folks at the same rates as the other places. That's why you notice some places closing while the hospital across town keeps expanding treatment centers.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:16:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Under the ideological philosphy that formed the underpinnings of our American Revolution, 'rights' are not granted or 'permitted' by governments. They pre-exist.

In a 'state of nature' man has rights derived from his Creator. Freedom of action. Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. The inalienable right to self-defense. The right to assemble. The right to create a government of mutual consent. Ecetera.

Obviously, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, Madison, Jay, etc. failed to mention that a right to 'free' universal health care was a pre-existant right derived from the Creator.

Obviously it exists in a 'state of nature.' Simply examine the earliest democratic or republican societies!

Even Jesus. Is it not said in the New Testement that 'In my Father's house everyone gets Blue Cross / Blue Shield on the gub'mint's nickel'?

Throughout American history, every small community and society has provided every one of its members with totally free health care - at no expense to the individual. Haven't they?

And then, only with the coming of the e-v-i-l Republicans and their 'neo-con' minions has this essential right been denied to the now oppressed Americans.

Rise up and throw out Bush and the GOLDEN AGE will return!



Well put. It's too bad that your arguement is far to intellectual (and sardonic) for the intended demographic. I enjoyed it though...
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:29:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By KBL:
It's kind of simple, actually. Many people in this country today do not understand the constitution of the United States which clearly specifies what "rights" we have as Americans. These people confuse entitlements and priveledges with "rights".

How many times have we seen one of our pathetic excuses of a network news outlet giving airtime to one of these Bozos as they claim that their "constitutional rights" have been violated because they've been denied welfare, health care, medicaid, or some other entitlement that was established by the left leaning Democrat congresses of the past?

The population is becoming less educated, and more ignorant by the day. And these idiots are all allowed to vote, because that is one of their "rights". Too bad "responsibility for one's actions" wasn't a requirement for the exercise of that "right".



+1

And you know what the scary thing is...

Even here, on this board, people continue to do the same thing with a 'right' to privacy, or to use drugs, etc... A 'right' to service from a private company, or to be able to ignore an employer's or business's rules on private property...

Creating extra 'rights' (but without the responsibility the should accompany any real 'right') has been a favorite of the left for years...
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:46:16 AM EST

because paying out of pocket drives one poor quickly.

I think that's the real reason so many view it as a right. Not being able to afford the treatment you need is scary. I've been there when my wife needed treatment and I had already borrowed all I could from family, so we had to wait and hope for the best. Look at it from the other side. No matter how hard you work if you make minimum wage or even twice that, you can never save enough to afford many of the types of procedures you might need.z
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:47:37 AM EST
No
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:50:23 AM EST
Hell, I work in a freakin' HOSPITAL and I don't get a "discount" on medical care. I pay for my benefits like most people do. At least GM and Ford employees get a discount when they buy a car. Jeeesshhh!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:52:21 AM EST
Why do we piss away so much money on public education??
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:58:40 AM EST
That's all that I can take

I proclaim "Free healthcare for all"
Death to third party insurers making money off our life and deathher-in-law
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:17:24 PM EST
The reason so many consider health care a "right" is because Hillary told them it was.

It was repeated over and over on the news, and finally the sheeple began to believe it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:03:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:22:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:Insurance companies seem to be the only business I know guranteed to make a profit






Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:42:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:42:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
No matter how you feel on this topic one way or the other, the medical industry is out of control and spiraling to a massive failure.

As a nation we are quickly becoming the nation of only the very rich or the very poor will get health care while more and more of the middle class go without while paying the bills.

Insurance companies seem to be the only business I know guranteed to make a profit as they not only deny coverage but control treatments. You can't deny the games doctors and patients must now play to get the simplest procedure approved. The medical industry quotes one price knowing they will have to settle for another. It's a pyramid scheme waiting to fail.

More and more dollars are spent on coverage adminstration as health cost sky rocket as a result while the improvement of health care quality doesn't keep pace with the cost. One of the fastest growing businesses in this country is discount hospitalization which is nothing more than an administration service doing the same thing as an insurance company, controlling costs/setting prices, for those who can't afford insurance. If you do the math $100 a month for the service or $1,200 for the insurance and play the odds. You're actually better off without insurance. It's insane.

Doctors now hire professional adminstrators to work with the insurance administrators for if they didn't they'd have no time for patients. This too adds to the cost.

Liability insurance sucks the profits form doctors and hospitals while lawyers sue to their hearts content.

Doctors become more and more frustrated and quit thier chosen profession daily.

Here's reality guys and no bullshit.........a guy who works for a living and has insurance goes into the hospital with a catastropic illness, he will most certainly be shown the door before someone on medicade. Branded with an illness on the ban list and you are forced to work for others the rest of your life. HIPPA is a fucking joke and the insurance companies find ways around it almost every time.

What's more important than your health? If you believe nothing, I sincerely believe unless rich you are better off being dirt poor and play the damn system.

It's out of control both from the left and the right and GOD I WISH I HAD AN ANSWER but I don't.

Problem is no one else does either so why shouldn’t the Democrats promise to fix what can’t be fixed. The impossible is their thing.

Tj



Americans are being bilked, duped and held hostage by the third party insurers.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:55:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Buncha moochers looking for a handout. Simple.



I was going to say that it's not health insurance that people really want. They just want somebody else to pay for their medical care. I think you said it better. Were we always like this?

Regards,

Mild Bill
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