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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/1/2005 8:29:43 AM EDT
I just got an E-mail from the EMS coordinator at my station, and it says that all employees must recieve both PPD tidor as well as a Flu shot by the end of the month to continue employment. The PPD (tuberculosis) I can see. But why a flu shot. Its been years since I had the flu.

It may not seem like a big deal, but here are some of my concerns. Every year its in the news that there is a major shortage of the vaccine, which causes a number of deaths among the elderly and the young as well as the chronically ill. It also has been known to cause the flu in same cases where ther patient was an otherwise healty individual. Not to mention my wife is preggo,and feeling weak and sick all the time. So I don't want to bring home a weakened strain to her. Shes already missed work and is getting sick a few tmes a week.

Now the E-mail reads that thses hots are mandatory, to continue working here. So is this a viloation of my rights to refuse medical treatment?

What say you?

hinking.gif
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:32:16 AM EDT
I know in the military we can and do, but the civilian world it may depend on what your terms of service say.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:36:15 AM EDT
It may have been years since you have had the flu but there is apparently a new strain around that can cause some real damage. We should not forget that we lost more people to flu than we did to combat during WWI. That was a major national disaster. If you are among the people who might be asked to carry some of the load during disasters then I think it would be perfectly reasonable. One shot of vaccine might save some old lady -- or it could keep you healthy enough to save five others.

But from what I hear, the vaccine may not make much difference with this strain, anyway.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:37:06 AM EDT
don't tven get me started on how manyshots and injections i got in the military, my shot record is like 3 pages long. Those damn airguns hurt like a summbitch.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:38:39 AM EDT
Let them fire you, sue, and name the department after your child when the court procedings are over.

We have to sign a waiver if we do not accept flu shots.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:44:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCFFEMTERT:
Let them fire you, sue, and name the department after your child when the court procedings are over.

We have to sign a waiver if we do not accept flu shots.



Thats what happened at my last station. If you declined, then calling out sick was okay, but it counted as an unexcused absence and you lost a vacation day for it. But she made no mention of it here.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:46:24 AM EDT
This a city or county department?
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:51:21 AM EDT
Anyone remember the "swine flu" fiasco?

Anyone remember how a lot of people came down with chronic fatigue syndrome after they got the shot? Old people died from it?

Type up a document stating that they accept all responsibility for any harm caused to you by the innoculations and request they sign it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 9:05:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Anyone remember the "swine flu" fiasco?

Anyone remember how a lot of people came down with chronic fatigue syndrome after they got the shot? Old people died from it?

Type up a document stating that they accept all responsibility for any harm caused to you by the innoculations and request they sign it.



Then again, there was the 1918 epidemic chnm.gmu.edu/features/voices/ww1flu/listeningtowwith.html A quarter of the population got it, and more than half a million people died. It probably isn't a question of IF it will happen again, but when.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 9:09:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Anyone remember the "swine flu" fiasco?


You talking around 78 or 79?

I was in Germany then, and they gave us 2 flu vaccines - 2 injections.

Put our squadron in the dirt.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:23:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Maxim_Mag:

Originally Posted By NCFFEMTERT:
Let them fire you, sue, and name the department after your child when the court procedings are over.

We have to sign a waiver if we do not accept flu shots.



Thats what happened at my last station. If you declined, then calling out sick was okay, but it counted as an unexcused absence and you lost a vacation day for it. But she made no mention of it here.




What happened if your illness was in no way related to influenza?
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:35:57 AM EDT
You're a heath care worker, which puts you at higher risk of getting sick. Get the shot.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:53:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Maxim_Mag:
I just got an E-mail from the EMS coordinator at my station, and it says that all employees must recieve both PPD tidor as well as a Flu shot by the end of the month to continue employment. The PPD (tuberculosis) I can see. But why a flu shot. Its been years since I had the flu.

It may not seem like a big deal, but here are some of my concerns. Every year its in the news that there is a major shortage of the vaccine, which causes a number of deaths among the elderly and the young as well as the chronically ill.



Choice.
Not going change. How many more will become ill if they contract the illness from healthcare workers or if healthcare workers are ill and cannot take care of them?


It also has been known to cause the flu in same cases where ther patient was an otherwise healty individual.


I remain entirely unconvinced of that. More likely contract the illness after the outbreak while waiting in line for the shot. Don't wait.
Others wouldn't know the difference between the flu, a cold and gastroenteritis if it jumped up and bit them.


Not to mention my wife is preggo,and feeling weak and sick all the time.


That might be the very best reason you have to be vaccinated.


So I don't want to bring home a weakened strain to her. Shes already missed work and is getting sick a few tmes a week.


Rubbish.
In any event, would you want to bring home a worse strain?
Vaccine is made from a killed virus.


Now the E-mail reads that thses hots are mandatory, to continue working here. So is this a viloation of my rights to refuse medical treatment?


Yes. But you don't really have to. You can quit.
And what about your fellow employees and their safety?


What say you?




Don't be a dipshit.

And quit acting like a girl.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:00:40 AM EDT
I understand your concern about your taking the shot meaning that an elderly or very young person will not have access to it.



However, you are an EMT. You most likely come into contact with many more people than average, many of whom are not at their peak of health. You may pick up the flu from one patient and continue to transmit long before you feel any symptoms.


THAT is what your employer is concerned about.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:03:41 AM EDT
When I was a hospital employee they where optional. We had to sign a consent to have the shot because it is potentially dangerous. If they force you to have a flu shot and you get sick or die it seems they would be liable even if you sign.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:16:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 11:17:26 AM EDT by rkbar15]
Find a doctor who will give you a medical exemption (based on yourself or a family member) or you can refuse all vaccinations on religious grounds. You should consult an attorney who is familiar with the specific laws in your state. The specific procedures in your state must be followed if you want to successfully fight them.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:19:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:


Then again, there was the 1918 epidemic chnm.gmu.edu/features/voices/ww1flu/listeningtowwith.html A quarter of the population got it, and more than half a million people died. It probably isn't a question of IF it will happen again, but when.



Total deaths were over 25 million, dude.
675 thousand in the US.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:25:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 11:25:18 AM EDT by Red_Beard]
He drjarhead ... do you get flu shots each year?


What do you think of this "bird flu" stuff that's been in the news a lot lately?

Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:42:52 AM EDT
Well thanks for your thoughts guys and gals. I'll take them under advisement. It all just seems strange that after 5 yrs with these people, are now demanding we get innoculated.

hinking.gif
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 12:50:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Others wouldn't know the difference between the flu, a cold and gastroenteritis if it jumped up and bit them.


Well I for one do.

Think I was 'Group A' in 2000.

Man, that shit kicked my ass. Went to bed with a 101 fever, and the next morning found me going to the Ft Sam Er with a 103.7. I was AFU in the worst way. I've had my share of injuries, but nothing like this ever floored me that bad. I was worthless.

The hosp called me I gues it was 2 days after my visit and confirmed to me that I indeed did have Influenza Group A (IIRC Group A). They wanted to admit me, especially if I still had a fever which I did. I refused, and continued to take their meds. Think I had a fever for a total of 4 days before it returned to normal.

As it was explained to me, the Inf virus weakens the body - in my case - to the point that it is extremely susceptible to infection. I ended up with pnemonia and a massive sinus infection.

Doc gave me some T#3, and I was like 'WTF do I need those?' Next day, I felt like every inch of me had been beaten with a bat - my entire hurt like never before.

I'm a big healthy guy, and I can see how that could've been a HUGE problem for a child, the elderly, etc.

I hadn't had a flu shot in 4 years or so.

Friend, get the flu shot.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 12:50:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 12:59:08 PM EDT by PeteCO]

Originally Posted By Maxim_Mag:
Well thanks for your thoughts guys and gals. I'll take them under advisement. It all just seems strange that after 5 yrs with these people, are now demanding we get innoculated.




Some things ARE worth doing on principle, despite the fact it is out of fashion in today's world. I would tell them to pound sand, and I WOULD sue if they pushed the issue. No job is EVER worth your manhood or dignity. (Yes, I HAVE walked the walk on that issue, to the point of my wife and I being almost homeless because I quit my job on moral grounds.)

What job do you do where your employer is paying for vaccinations?

Will they supervise and dictate your diet if you have diabetes, to make sure you are not a greater health burden?

Maybe they should require abortions so they don't have to pay maternity leave........
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:06:27 PM EDT
'78
I was in Germany, got the shot and was down 48 hours with the flu
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:14:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Maxim_Mag:
cause the flu in same cases where ther patient was an otherwise healty individual. Not to mention my wife is preggo,and feeling weak and sick all the time. So I don't want to bring home a weakened strain to her. Shes already missed work and is getting sick a few tmes a week.



A pregnant wife is a great reason to get vaccinated so that you don't bring home the real thing.

IMPORTANT NOTE:

The Flu shot is killed virus. Ok.

The Nasal Spray is live virus, and NOT OK if you have a pregnant wife at home.

I am not a doctor.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:22:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
He drjarhead ... do you get flu shots each year?



You bet your ass I do.
Immunity may be partial. It may wane by the end of the season and it is possible to contract in spite of vaccination. Some years they do not pick the correct strains and people still get the flu.

I got it last year in April after being vaccinated. On the day before my vacation. Of course......
I knew what it wsa right away though and starting taking tamiflu immediately as well as relenza. Next day I was 90% and we left on our trip.



What do you think of this "bird flu" stuff that's been in the news a lot lately?




Matter of time. Might be this year, might be much longer. Nobody knows for sure.
Going to be bad when it makes the jump to humans.

I have posted on this ad nauseum many times. Do a search. Just don't feel like going thru it all right now.
I'll be glad to anser individual questions if I can.

We'll do better here overall then third worlders. If it hits Africa....
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:24:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 6:41:43 PM EDT by Backstop]

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Anyone remember the "swine flu" fiasco?


You talking around 78 or 79?

I was in Germany then, and they gave us 2 flu vaccines - 2 injections.

Put our squadron in the dirt.



I made an error - I have my original shot records here (thought they were in the safety deposit box)

The two vaccines were not in 78 or 79, they were in 76 - they gave me the Swine flu (1.0cc) and Hong Kong flu (o.5cc) vaccinations.

I just received one injection for flu in 78 and 79.

Just wanted to clear that up.


EDIT: But sitting here thinking about it, I could swear I remember walking down the center of the Rhein Main theater and them stabbing both arms...shrugs...FIIK.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:26:10 PM EDT
Not to mention, IIRC, this year's vaccination is last year's strain plus a SWAG at what they think might be a problem this year.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong - I didn't get much training in immunizations.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:27:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Others wouldn't know the difference between the flu, a cold and gastroenteritis if it jumped up and bit them.


Well I for one do.

Think I was 'Group A' in 2000.

Man, that shit kicked my ass. Went to bed with a 101 fever, and the next morning found me going to the Ft Sam Er with a 103.7. I was AFU in the worst way. I've had my share of injuries, but nothing like this ever floored me that bad. I was worthless.

The hosp called me I gues it was 2 days after my visit and confirmed to me that I indeed did have Influenza Group A (IIRC Group A). They wanted to admit me, especially if I still had a fever which I did. I refused, and continued to take their meds. Think I had a fever for a total of 4 days before it returned to normal.

As it was explained to me, the Inf virus weakens the body - in my case - to the point that it is extremely susceptible to infection. I ended up with pnemonia and a massive sinus infection.

Doc gave me some T#3, and I was like 'WTF do I need those?' Next day, I felt like every inch of me had been beaten with a bat - my entire hurt like never before.

I'm a big healthy guy, and I can see how that could've been a HUGE problem for a child, the elderly, etc.

I hadn't had a flu shot in 4 years or so.

Friend, get the flu shot.



Good advice.
Further I would add that influenza can be devastating for pregnant women.

They didn't treat you right away?
Medical care in the military is pretty sucky for sure.

You know what it is now. Most are clueless, take my word.
We have rapid tests now, take about 20 minutes to get results back from a NP swab. Loads of fun.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:32:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 6:32:55 PM EDT by MlTCHELL]
I think a lobotomy is a requirement for working at the DMV... I'm affraid to find out, they're probably quicker with an ice pick than calling your number.

Edited for spelling of lobotomy.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:44:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 7:00:05 PM EDT by PlaymoreMinds]

Originally Posted By Maxim_Mag:
don't tven get me started on how manyshots and injections i got in the military, my shot record is like 3 pages long. Those damn airguns hurt like a summbitch.



Not if ya hold still!

I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that can't force you to have medical treatment: some strict religious groups shun modern medicine. If all else fails and you don't want to get the shots (and you never agreed to it prior to your employment) I say decline on religious grounds and see what happens.

Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:46:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 6:54:03 PM EDT by Backstop]

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
They didn't treat you right away?
Medical care in the military is pretty sucky for sure.

You know what it is now. Most are clueless, take my word.
We have rapid tests now, take about 20 minutes to get results back from a NP swab. Loads of fun.



Doc gave me anit-b's that day for the pneumonia and sinus inf and the T3s. That was it. He told me he was pretty sure I had the flu, and that it was gonna get worse. Also gave me a note and said take 2 weeks off work. Guess I only took 5 or 6 days off - but I swear it was a couple weeks before I felt better.

Man, no shit... I've had Giardia/Crypto at the same time, been FU from accidents...but that was the sickest I've ever been. A monumental time in my life.

Plus my Bipolar (now-ex) wife, would not drive me to the hosp that morning...sheesh.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:49:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 6:50:47 PM EDT by Bubbatheredneck]

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

...Medical care in the military is pretty sucky for sure....




I would respectfully disagree.

ETA: Get the dang shot and protect those you contact during your duties.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 7:00:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

...Medical care in the military is pretty sucky for sure....




I would respectfully disagree.




I don't care.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 7:59:36 PM EDT
You can take tamiflu and relenza at the same time eh?


I aquired myself a course of tamiflu to have on hand after reading about how the government is hoarding it now.

Maybe I should look into getting some relenza as well.

Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:11:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
You can take tamiflu and relenza at the same time eh?



not really. I took the relenza and then took the tamiflu 3x daily instead of twice daily as rec. What can I say. I have been sick on every vacation I have taken for the past 12 years and there was no way. All I can say is that it kicked the shit out of the flu.
Trick though is taking it as soon as possible after the onset of symptoms.



I aquired myself a course of tamiflu to have on hand after reading about how the government is hoarding it now.

Maybe I should look into getting some relenza as well.




Hey, do as I say, not as I do.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:17:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
...relenza...tamiflu



Are those script only or OTC?
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:20:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
...relenza...tamiflu



Are those script only or OTC?



Rx only
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:26:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 8:31:35 PM EDT by Red_Beard]

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
...relenza...tamiflu



Are those script only or OTC?



Rx only




You can get them shipped in from overseas without a prescription.


A friend and I bought some from http://drugdelivery.ca and have a tracking number with scheduled delivery for this week. I just noticed that the price on 10 pills has gone up on that website by $25 over what it was when we ordered. Must be lots of people paniced by the increased media attention lately.

It costs a little more than getting it here, but my doc wanted to have a damn office visit for me to talk about getting a note for it. Said I should just get some when I start getting symptoms. Time for a new doc.


Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:40:22 PM EDT
Thanks, guys.

I'll call the base on Monday and see if it's on the Formulary for us retired folks.

Otherwise, I'll pay for it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:44:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Maxim_Mag:
Those damn airguns hurt like a summbitch.



Wimp.

On that note, don't ever do an arm workout and then get an airgun injection.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:53:16 PM EDT
They can absolutely make it a condition of employment. You can refuse the flu shot and TB test, and they can fire you for doing so if they wish. You can sue and you can lose based on public health law and Dept of Health requirements for ambulance services and any health care based business. Children can be refused admission to school based on lack of vaccines if the parents refuse them. Colleges can refuse you admission if you do not have your MMR shot. So get used to the fact that you may be required to get shots to maintain employment.

The PPD test is not a treatment.

The flu shot is given so YOU don't become a vector of the disease to the patients you may treat, like the elderly and children who may have weakened/less developed immune systems.

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 6:33:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 6:40:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -brass-:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
It costs a little more than getting it here, but my doc wanted to have a damn office visit for me to talk about getting a note for it. Said I should just get some when I start getting symptoms. Time for a new doc.





When was your last "General Checkup"?

If it has been over a year, they may want to make sure all of your nuts and bolts are generally running OK before throwing something out over the phone.



Leave his nuts out of this.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:56:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mattja:
You're a heath care worker, which puts you at higher risk of getting sick. Get the shot.



I'm a health care worker also. I dont' get the flu shot and haven't gotten the flu in spite of doing flu tests and getting a lot of positive results a couple years ago during the flu hysteria year.

I was reading about contaminated vaccines during the last flu shot hysteria. If a terroroist wanted to do some damage all they would have to do is watch the news and work with whatever the latest hysteria was.

Flu is rarly fatal, especially in healty folks. Sure there have been a few pandemics of a very virulent strain but by the time the vaccine comes out there are new strains.

Everytime a vaccine is invented they make that disease out to be the end of all mankind.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:00:32 AM EDT
There are medical, philosophical and religious exemptions for state mandated vaccinations. The specific exemption varies by the laws of the state that you reside in and may also be subject to a union bargaining agreement for employer mandated type vaccinations.

You should not assume that that your school district or employer has the legal right to require you or your child to be vaccinated.
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