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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/15/2006 5:52:37 AM EDT
I'm pretty sure they can be reduced, but I can't find it in the UCMJ.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:06:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 6:06:58 AM EDT by callgood]
???????? If they came thru OCS (is that still around) and their permanent rank is still Non-Com I think they can (could). Maybe as a result of a RIF.??????

_______________________
Under no circumstances should the above be taken as gospel.


edited for speling
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:27:57 AM EDT
I don't know about reductions due to discplinary action.

I do know that in the USMC officers have, in the past, been reduced to enlisted ranks due to reductions in force. AFAIK, this is done on a voluntary basis, with the alternative being early seperation.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:36:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
I don't know about reductions due to discplinary action.

I do know that in the USMC officers have, in the past, been reduced to enlisted ranks due to reductions in force. AFAIK, this is done on a voluntary basis, with the alternative being early seperation.




I have seen that: an E-7 with aviator wings. When asked it was either RIFed or senior enlisted.

-Orr
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:42:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bcw107:
I'm pretty sure they can be reduced, but I can't find it in the UCMJ.


Absolutely.

There was a LTC in my division who was caught banging his male secretary. He was given a BCD and reduced in rank to PVT/E1 before being shipped to Leavenworth.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:00:23 AM EDT
Snicker
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:08:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By g136653:

Originally Posted By bcw107:
I'm pretty sure they can be reduced, but I can't find it in the UCMJ.


Absolutely.

There was a LTC in my division who was caught banging his male secretary. He was given a BCD and reduced in rank to PVT/E1 before being shipped to Leavenworth.



owned.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:12:00 AM EDT
At my first duty station the training NCO was once an O4. Cool guy, knew his stuff, taught me alot.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:35:19 AM EDT
Somebody please post a link if they know of one citing a specific incident. My little brother and his friends are 2nd Knowitalls and I am a former lower than scum enlisted grunt. I knew he was wrong about this but I can't find anything online.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:46:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bcw107:
Somebody please post a link if they know of one citing a specific incident. My little brother and his friends are 2nd Knowitalls and I am a former lower than scum enlisted grunt. I knew he was wrong about this but I can't find anything online.



Your little brother needs to learn that the internet is NOT the source of truth.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:50:38 AM EDT
Happened a fair amount after WW2. At least in the Pacific.

Apparently a fair number of enlisted became officers during the war, basically due to battlefield promotions ("everybody above you is dead, Sgt. You're now a Lt!"). When the war ended they dropped back to near their former ranks as the size of the military was dropped.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:52:02 AM EDT
ive seen it done to many a warrant officer but they come form enlisted to its a bit different. ive also seen warrant officers wearing aviator wings. RIF'd
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:53:20 AM EDT

Based on my viewing of many John Wayne movie (and the assumption that television is slightly more accurate than the internet), there was a lot of that going around after the Civil War - most of it voluntary, I imagine, since there was a glut of officers.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:04:57 AM EDT
Happened to my Uncle after WWII...battlefield promotions to MAJ, but after the War the no degree thing became an issue, and he ended up a E-8. Still retired a MAJ on MAJ pay and benefits.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:09:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 8:10:10 AM EDT by eddiein1984]
Can't speak for the other services, but in the Navy an LDO (limited duty officer) can be returned to his previous enlisted rank after a period for non-disciplinary action. Line officers cannot, except for the BCD/Leavenworth crowd.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:11:00 AM EDT
I know of a few enlisted personnel that were prior officers. 2 were F4 pilots that got riffed.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:13:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Happened to my Uncle after WWII...battlefield promotions to MAJ, but after the War the no degree thing became an issue, and he ended up a E-8. Still retired a MAJ on MAJ pay and benefits.



Happened to my CSM in Panama. Received a battlefield promotion in Vietnam, then got RIF'ed in the 70s. What was really strange was that he and the SOC commander at the time had been in IOBC together.

The CSM retired as a Cpt with 30 years. IE got 75% of the base pay for an 03. Much better than retired CSM pay.



Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:21:01 AM EDT
Actually, the 2005 edition of the Manual for Courts-Martial doesn’t say anything about reduction for officers. They talk about dismissals, confinements and forfeiture of all pay and allowances but no reduction. The reference that might cover this is V-6, to paraphrase-- if you can’t promote them to the grade then you don’t have the authority to demote from that grade. Since Officers’ rank actually comes from the POTUS, I am not sure how they would go about taking that away. There is a section on dismissal by order of the POTUS, but not reduction. I have also heard many “stories” of guys that used to be officers and now enlisted. But everyone I met backtracked to just kidding when asked to explain. I am not saying it hasn’t happened in the past but I’ve never seen it.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:41:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By g136653:

Originally Posted By bcw107:
I'm pretty sure they can be reduced, but I can't find it in the UCMJ.


Absolutely.

There was a LTC in my division who was caught banging his male secretary. He was given a BCD and reduced in rank to PVT/E1 before being shipped to Leavenworth.



Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:45:38 AM EDT
im pretty sure officer commisions come from congress, not POTUS, my brother is a "zero" and his commision is from congress, my father is a warrant officer and his commision states "by warrant of the president of the united states"
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:08:07 AM EDT
MARNESAPPER has it correct.

A commissioned officer is not reduced to an enlisted rank by a court-martial. He (or she) is dismissed from the service.

Commissioned officers that were enlisted prior to recieving their commission may, depending on the circumstances, be offered an opportunity to reenlist at their previously held enlisted rank during a reduction in force or when passed over for promotion where they are not otherwise allowed to remain on active duty. An example would be a sergeant who went to OCS, was commissioned and is passed over for major and is offered an opportunity to reenlist in order to reach retirement (actually happened to a friend of mine in 1987 )

Prior to the reform of the Army's officer management program in the 1970s, an active Army officer potentially had two seperate appointments. One was his permanent rank (RA or USAR rank), the other his serving rank ("AUS rank"). At the end of WWI, WWII, Korea there were many officers who were reduced to their permanent rank when the Army downsized. For example, lieutenant colonel (AUS) reduced to his permanent rank of captain (RA or USAR).

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:27:28 PM EDT
Commissions are granted by order of the president. ( I checked my first DA 1).It used to be that warrants were granted by Congress. I am not sure now. However with the change of officer management (I believe DOPMA) CW-2s now are considered “commissioned officers” even though are still hold warrants. They have to sign a DA 71 oath of office as commissioned not warrant. This was done because in some units WOs are actually in command roles. I know my old admin clerk had to retype DA 71s when one of my warrants got promoted to CW-2. It was kicked back because it was marked under the warrant column not commissioned.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:32:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:25:09 PM EDT
In WW2, coward officers were used as stevedores to unload ships, i.e. manual labor. No idea if their rank was reduced with such an assignment or not.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:30:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 5:31:20 PM EDT by NonConformist]
It happened to Kelly

He got orders to attack the wrong hill, someone had to be blamed and he got picked
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:31:49 PM EDT
Pretty much all of the tenants at Leavenworth.

I wonder if they still have a big rock pile over there.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:38:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Pretty much all of the tenants at Leavenworth.

I wonder if they still have a big rock pile over there.




No, but they got a lot of little ones piled up.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:41:49 PM EDT
I think a trip to the pen is the only way it can happen.....
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:59:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 2:54:02 AM EDT by Stryfe]

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
It happened to Kelly

He got orders to attack the wrong hill, someone had to be blamed and he got picked



But no one said he wasn't a sergeant before.
Maybe he had a battlefield commision.
Woof!
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:47:57 PM EDT
If it is a discipline matter, then they are dismissed.

If a RIF, prior enlisted can be voluntarily reduced, and I believe (ISA believe) that in the past a reduction was offered to officers who would otherwise have insufficient time in to retire. They could then serve out their 20 and upon retirement retire at their highest honorably held rank.

It was pretty common in the Air force and Army because of their permanent and temporary rank structure and practices especially when manning up for a conflict. The Navy has both temporary and permanent rank.

from the UCMJ

804 ART. 4. DISMISSED OFFICER'S RIGHT TO TRIAL BY COURT-MARTIAL
(a) If any commissioned officer, dismissed by order of the president, makes a written application for trial by court-martial setting forth under oath, that he has been wrongfully dismissed, the President, as soon as practicable, shall convene a general court-martial to try that officer on the charges on which he was dismissed. A court-martial so convened has jurisdiction to try the dismissed officer on those charges, and he shall be considered to have waived the right to plead any statute of limitations applicable to any offense with which he is charged. The court-martial may, as part of its sentence, adjudge the affirmance of the dismissal, but if the court-martial acquits the accused or if the sentence adjudged, as finally approved or affirmed, does not include dismissal or death, the Secretary concerned shall substitute for the dismissal ordered by the President a form of discharge authorized for administrative issue.
(b) If the President fails to convene a general court-martial within six months from the preparation of an application for trial under this article, the Secretary concerned shall substitute for the dismissal order by the President a form of discharge authorized for administrative issue.
(c) If a discharge is substituted for a dismissal under this article, the President alone may reappoint the officer to such commissioned grade and with such rank as, in the opinion of the President, that former officer would have attained had he not been dismissed. The reappointment of such a former officer shall be without regard to the existence of a vacancy and shall affect the promotion status of other officers only insofar as the President may direct. All time between the dismissal and the reappointment shall be considered as actual service for all purposes, including the right to pay and allowances.
(d) If an officer is discharged from any armed force by administrative action or is dropped from the rolls by order of the President, he has no right to trial under this article.

871. ART. 71. EXECUTION OF SENTENCE; SUSPENSION OF SENTENCE
----
(b) If in the case of a commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman, the sentence of a court-martial extends to dismissal, that part of the sentence providing for dismissal may not be executed until approved by the Secretary concerned or such Under Secretary of Assistant Secretary as may be designated by the Secretary concerned. In such a case, the Secretary, Under Secretary or Assistant t Secretary, as the case may be, may commute, remit, or suspend the sentence, or any part of the sentence, as he sees fit. In time of war or national emergency he may commute a sentence of dismissal to reduction to any enlisted grade. A person so reduced may be required to serve for the duration of the war or emergency and six months thereafter.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:45:00 AM EDT
My very first platoon leader was LT West back in 1982. I saw him again in 1996 in Korea as an E6. I asked him what happened and he wouldn't tell me. A friend of mine told me he made it to CPT and did something that got a soldier killed. They allowed him to resign his commission and stay in the Army as an E6, supposedly so he could still retire at 20.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:50:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
ive seen it done to many a warrant officer but they come form enlisted to its a bit different. ive also seen warrant officers wearing aviator wings. RIF'd


+1. officers would be kicked out at their current rank for miscon, no reduction, no chance for reversion/conversion. if it was the result of a rif or some other special program, an officer would become either a wo or at the very least a gysgt.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 12:17:59 PM EDT
According to the Navy Jag officer (reserve) who sits next to me, officers cannot be reduced to enlisted rank for UCMJ violations.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 12:30:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:44:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Now we are so short majors that you can be selectively continued to 24 years as an O4 and O3s can hit their 20 (though that would suck big donkey bone)


I don't know, and I'm just asking a question here, but why would it be so bad to be a captain for so long? At least in the combat arms doesn't that mean you get to spend a lot of time in the field "playing" and letting your XO do all of the work?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:57:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryfe:

I don't know, and I'm just asking a question here, but why would it be so bad to be a captain for so long?




At least in the Marines, it is considered a short-coming in one's leadership skills to remain a Capt. for so long. Montel Williams was shown the door after getting passed over for promotion for Major too many times, I've heard.

In the Marines, it is basically an "up-or-out" promotion system. However, after Major, it's not considered a "failure" if one doesn't get past that.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:14:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 4:19:44 PM EDT by Stryfe]

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By Stryfe:

I don't know, and I'm just asking a question here, but why would it be so bad to be a captain for so long?


In the Marines, it is basically an "up-or-out" promotion system. However, after Major, it's not considered a "failure" if one doesn't get past that.


From a career perspective, I understand that. Everyone ought to want to succeed.
I was thinking more in terms of a "job."
I should'be been clearer in my first post.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that when I was in HS considering a career in the military, it seemed to me that the Army stopped "being fun" between the rank of Capt and Col.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:24:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:23:34 PM EDT
Hadn't thought of it that way.
Thanks for the responses.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:28:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
It happened to Kelly

He got orders to attack the wrong hill, someone had to be blamed and he got picked



Always with the negative waves man, always with the negative waves.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:31:53 PM EDT
Let me say it this way, General Custer of little big horn fame, Wasn't a gneral when he died he was a Colonel!!!!

It's called Breveting, they don't have enough people to fill ranks of officers so they promote existing people to "Acting Rank" for the time being when it's over you go back to whatever you were, For Custer that was Major.

He left the military he was asked to come back in because they needed Cavalry officers to because the "Natives were getting restless" and they promoted him to Colonel.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:38:53 PM EDT
if they resign their commision and reenlist they usualy come back as an NCO at some level
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:42:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:48:01 PM EDT
Can a military officer be reduced in rank to enlisted?

Most military officers are enlisted, just not commissioned.

B_S
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:01:07 PM EDT
Sooooooooooooooooooooooo confusing!
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:07:49 PM EDT
you better believe it
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:08:51 PM EDT
My buddy had an RTO (E4) type that was an Infantry PL before he got involved with a female enlisted soldier. Made his life real easy to have an RTO that could do an OPORD. I have also met a guy who started as an FA officer, moved to warrant to fly, then enlisted as an E5 to stay in the National Guard.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:18:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 1:21:25 AM EDT by Ross]
One of the Maintenance Examiners (it's like an IP for Maintenanace Test Pilots) I flew with was a Captain in Vietnam and RIFd, and ended up a CW-3 aviator. He retired as a Captain.

When I was an AVUM Platoon Leader in the 1st CAV, my PSG was an SFC who had been a CPT in Vietnam. When he retired, I had to write both an EER and an OER on him. I had to get with the admin folks about that one, but there was a whole process on it that was spelled out for whatever reasons. He retired as a Captain as well.

It was not an uncommon thing in the 80's when we still had many Vietnam vets who were just retiring.
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