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Posted: 8/21/2017 7:09:39 AM EDT
"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
"Right to assemble peaceably..."
"A well regulated Militia... Shall not be infringed."
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."


So along comes "health care." Did this "right" exist before, say, 1918? If it did, what about those who could not afford it before then? What about the victims of the Spanish Flu? Were their "rights" violated?
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:15:14 AM EDT
[#1]
The right to access a market service, agreed upon by both parties (recipient and provider), is, indeed a right.
Nobody has a "right" to force someone to give them a service (that's called slavery).
Nobody has a "right" to force someone else to pay for their service (that's called theft/extortion).


ETA: Shit, I missed my 10,000th post.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:21:58 AM EDT
[#2]
Rights? People get together and vote they have rights, that's it. The fact that we have voted certain rights in this country are "god given" doesn't make it remotely true anyplace in the world. If we want to get together and declare that we all were born with the right to free marshmallows, then it will be true here. Or if we vote nobody is born with anything except the king, it will be true. When we stop agreeing, the rights are gone, just like that.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:24:05 AM EDT
[#3]
I think this is a dupe from an earlier thread.  But no matter...

No, rights can't be created.  They are natural to man.

Debating whether or not healthcare is a right is silly.  It's something that we can choose to pay for collectively (like roads or the military) or choose not to.  It's as simple as that.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:24:54 AM EDT
[#4]
Philosophy thread 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:28:19 AM EDT
[#5]
Your "rights" only exist when a majority of others agree that they exist.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:29:08 AM EDT
[#6]
I believe the idea to exclude a BoR had merit. It has to be one of sole causes for the misunderstanding of rights in this country. As well as the role of the government. 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:30:24 AM EDT
[#7]
Rights are created by man, and they can be given or taken away.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:32:14 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Rights are created by man, and they can be given or taken away.
View Quote
This
In a society your rights are made.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:32:48 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Your "rights" only exist when a majority of others agree that they exist.
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:34:14 AM EDT
[#10]
An individual RIGHT cannot be "given" lest it be taken away (therefore never a Right to begin with). Individual Rights must be asserted and defended by the individual. Governments (and others) can only recognize and codify those Rights.

Any Right that is dependent on the support of others is not a Right and no "Right" exists if the is an obligation on others to provide it. Healthcare is the perfect example of this. You cannot have a RIGHT to Healthcare if it requires other people to go to school and train for years to become Surgeons, Internists, Nurses, X-ray techs.,etc. or requires me to work and be taxed to pay them for the benefit of somebody else.

In the same manner;

The Right to free speech does not require an audience to listen.

The Right to keep and bear arms does not obligate a gun maker to build a gun for me.

The inalienable Right to the pursuit of happiness does not create an obligation for others to make me happy.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:36:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Start by reading Kant, end with Locke.  Throw in some Hobbes so that you can say you did
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:37:40 AM EDT
[#12]
OP needs Cicero.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:46:30 AM EDT
[#13]
As much as I want to believe there are natural rights history has shown that only rights anyone has are the ones they can fight to keep.  To see many examples of this we need look no further than government overreach...
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:51:10 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This
In a society your rights are made.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Rights are created by man, and they can be given or taken away.
This
In a society your rights are made.
Wrong, your rights exist.
Now whether or not you can freely exercise your god given rights is something else.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:53:43 AM EDT
[#15]
Rights are naturally endowed upon us by the Creator.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:57:38 AM EDT
[#16]
Plato's cave only exists in the human mind.


Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:59:17 AM EDT
[#17]
Rights exist because people fight for them. God grants nothing and you aren't born with shit. 

You want the right to free speech? Fight for it. 

Prior to Love v Virginia my marriage was illegal and my wife and I would not have the right to marry and live together. We have the right marriage because other before us fought for that right. 

Society is a social contract between people. You give up certain rights and freedoms for the safety and stability that society brings. True freedom is living in nature like an animal. But you trade some if those freedoms to have a roof over your head, have a stable society where people specialize so you can focus on a certain task, etc....

Society changes and so does rights. 

So if you want to secure your rights. 

FIGHT FOR THEM
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:03:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Rights exist because people fight for them. God grants nothing and you aren't born with shit. 

You want the right to free speech? Fight for it. 

Prior to Love v Virginia my marriage was illegal and my wife and I would not have the right to marry and live together. We have the right marriage because other before us fought for that right. 

Society is a social contract between people. You give up certain rights and freedoms for the safety and stability that society brings. True freedom is living in nature like an animal. But you trade some if those freedoms to have a roof over your head, have a stable society where people specialize so you can focus on a certain task, etc....

Society changes and so does rights. 

So if you want to secure your rights. 

FIGHT FOR THEM
View Quote
So when society implodes what will people be left with?

Or 87,000 years ago...
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:09:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Wrong, your rights exist.
Now whether or not you can freely exercise your god given rights is something else.
View Quote
That's a political formula protecting a natural Schelling point, like the divine right of kings. Why did King George have the right to crush traitorous colonials? Just because, that's why! Now whether he could freely enforce them...

It gives those legal privileges extra protection. The cost of relying on "just because" is the risk of thinking your privileges are beyond the need for defense.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:23:36 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So when society implodes what will people be left with?

Or 87,000 years ago...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Rights exist because people fight for them. God grants nothing and you aren't born with shit. 

You want the right to free speech? Fight for it. 

Prior to Love v Virginia my marriage was illegal and my wife and I would not have the right to marry and live together. We have the right marriage because other before us fought for that right. 

Society is a social contract between people. You give up certain rights and freedoms for the safety and stability that society brings. True freedom is living in nature like an animal. But you trade some if those freedoms to have a roof over your head, have a stable society where people specialize so you can focus on a certain task, etc....

Society changes and so does rights. 

So if you want to secure your rights. 

FIGHT FOR THEM
So when society implodes what will people be left with?

Or 87,000 years ago...
Mankind will revert to the old ways again. Oh wait.... it is the same today. Those with power and resources will rule those that don't. 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:28:26 AM EDT
[#21]
Rights don't exist. You have no right to anything.

When a great white shark eats you, is it violating your rights? How about lightening striking your head?

Rights are simply agreements between men and are only worth how far you'll go to enforce them.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:37:42 AM EDT
[#22]
Might makes right.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:44:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Rights don't exist. You have no right to anything.

When a great white shark eats you, is it violating your rights? How about lightening striking your head?

Rights are simply agreements between men and are only worth how far you'll go to enforce them.
View Quote
+1

this is about as simple as it can be explained. a man has the right to do anything he wants until another man is willing to make him do otherwise.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:45:13 AM EDT
[#24]
Rights have existed since the very beginning and, as the Founders recognized, were granted by God. Our natural rights go hand in hand with natural law. And while these rights can not be destroyed by man, it is a question as to whether they are recognized by man.

The idea that man can create rights for itself is beyond silly and it's saddening to see so many freedom lovers here subscribe to that belief. How can mankind give itself natural rights when it has neither the ability nor power to do so?  Natural rights have existed from the beginning and are part of the natural fiber of the universe.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:49:04 AM EDT
[#25]
"Rights" can be defined through legislation or court rulings. Rights are ultimately  defended by people. You might have a specific right in some theoretical sense, but if it is not defended, you've lost that right for any practical purpose because you can no longer exercise it freely.

This idea that "god" is up there granting some innate 'right" is crazy. You aren't going to win a political argument saying that god promised you that you should be able to own a gun, for instance
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:51:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The right to access a market service, agreed upon by both parties (recipient and provider), is, indeed a right.
Nobody has a "right" to force someone to give them a service (that's called slavery).
Nobody has a "right" to force someone else to pay for their service (that's called theft/extortion).


ETA: Shit, I missed my 10,000th post.
View Quote
Very good points.

And hell, I missed mine too.  I wonder which post I spent my 10K on....
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:55:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Might makes right.
View Quote
Correctamundo señor

Folks only have rights because they were fought for. 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:55:17 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Rights don't exist. You have no right to anything.

When a great white shark eats you, is it violating your rights? How about lightening striking your head?

Rights are simply agreements between men and are only worth how far you'll go to enforce them.
View Quote
Yep.  As far as the universe is concerned... rights are a fiction.   Like you said, the Great White sharks, hurricanes, and cancer cells don't read much Locke.

But the concept of rights is still a good idea.

It's the only basis for a civil society worth having, really.  Our society is founded on the idea that individuals have the right to their own life, liberty, and property and that no one will fault you for killing anyone who tries to take those things away from you.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:04:00 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
If rights were universal, we wouldn't have tyranny. It's a great philosophy/ideology...but in real life..rights only matter when you have the means to enforce/protect them.

Your rights, my rights...disappear if society fails. Other people don't care about our rights....
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:05:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Your "rights" only exist when a majority of others agree that they exist.
View Quote
As a practical matter, yes. Though you used "exist" when you should have used "recognized."

If rights didn't always exist, they can be taken away in a legit way. And if they can have that done to them, they were never rights. (Sorta like, IN the definition of the word dude.)

Rights in the Constitution were enumerated and described there, not created there.  They existed, and the Constitution bound the government with them.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:15:57 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
As a practical matter, yes. Though you used "exist" when you should have used "recognized."

If rights didn't always exist, they can be taken away in a legit way. And if they can have that done to them, they were never rights. (Sorta like, IN the definition of the word dude.)

Rights in the Constitution were enumerated and described there, not created there.  They existed, and the Constitution bound the government with them.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Your "rights" only exist when a majority of others agree that they exist.
As a practical matter, yes. Though you used "exist" when you should have used "recognized."

If rights didn't always exist, they can be taken away in a legit way. And if they can have that done to them, they were never rights. (Sorta like, IN the definition of the word dude.)

Rights in the Constitution were enumerated and described there, not created there.  They existed, and the Constitution bound the government with them.
The Constitution enumerated rights that we're in existence from prior writing where they were created like the English Bill of Rights. But the rights in the English Bill of Rights were created. 

Prior to Loving v Virginia my marriage was illegal and we wouldn't have had the right. We have the right because people fought for it. 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:30:57 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
"Right to assemble peaceably..."
"A well regulated Militia... Shall not be infringed."
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

So along comes "health care." Did this "right" exist before, say, 1918? If it did, what about those who could not afford it before then? What about the victims of the Spanish Flu? Were their "rights" violated?
View Quote


You have NO Rights

ETA:  My heart isn't bleeding, I just think it's funny
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:53:34 AM EDT
[#33]
Rights are God given. When you remove God from society then man becomes the highest power. At that point rights mean jack shit.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:55:53 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
"Right to assemble peaceably..."
"A well regulated Militia... Shall not be infringed."
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

So along comes "health care." Did this "right" exist before, say, 1918? If it did, what about those who could not afford it before then? What about the victims of the Spanish Flu? Were their "rights" violated?
View Quote

These are all concepts created my mankind, and exist nowhere else - and for no other other living thing - on this planet.

A.W.D.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:56:33 AM EDT
[#35]
Rights aren't created, they may be realized, but they exist in perpetuity.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:57:45 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Rights are God given. When you remove God from society then man becomes the highest power. At that point rights mean jack shit.
View Quote
God grants nothing. The word of God even supports the enslavement of others. The only thing God grants in the right to eventually die.

Man creates rights through force and might and keeps them through staying ever vigilant and ready to cause harm and death on those that seek to take those rights away. 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:01:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
God grants nothing. The word of God even supports the enslavement of others. The only thing God grants in the right to eventually die.

Man creates rights through force and might and keeps them through staying ever vigilant and ready to cause harm and death on those that seek to take those rights away. 
View Quote
Thank God!

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.  John Adams

This is the truth of the matter. Look at this thread. Freedom minded men willing to accept that our God given rights can be taken by another man. How pathetic.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:08:37 AM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:
Rights are God given. When you remove God from society then man becomes the highest power. At that point rights mean jack shit.
View Quote
This statement ignores most of recorded history.

Feudal lords?   God ordained you to rule over these serfs.  

The King?   God ordained you.  Nevermind this uppity parliament.  

Slave owners?   Well, clearly God ordained this slavery as the natural order.  Otherwise, it would be immoral to enslave my fellow human like this.

God as the originator of rights (well, for anyone but nobles) is just as silly as God being the originator of rights abuses.  Both points of view have alternately been used throughout history, depending on the popular fiction of the age.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:10:51 AM EDT
[#39]
A right is always there.  Whether or not it is smothered by evil is a different question.  Whether or not someone will fight for it a different question still.

Healthcare is a service.  Like car repair.  Or prostitution.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:11:14 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Thank God!

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.  John Adams

This is the truth of the matter. Look at this thread. Freedom minded men willing to accept that our God given rights can be taken by another man. How pathetic.
View Quote
Which God...cause your god is different than someone else's god or even the god of the founding fathers...

God requires Faith and no proof.

If god cannot be proven to exist or not exist...why would you allow your rights to rely on something that cannot be proven.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:11:31 AM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:
Rights? People get together and vote they have rights, that's it. The fact that we have voted certain rights in this country are "god given" doesn't make it remotely true anyplace in the world. If we want to get together and declare that we all were born with the right to free marshmallows, then it will be true here. Or if we vote nobody is born with anything except the king, it will be true. When we stop agreeing, the rights are gone, just like that.
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:13:21 AM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This statement ignores most of recorded history.

Feudal lords?   God ordained you to rule over these serfs.  

The King?   God ordained you.  Nevermind this uppity parliament.  

Slave owners?   Well, clearly God ordained this slavery as the natural order.  Otherwise, it would be immoral to enslave my fellow human like this.

God as the originator of rights (well, for anyone but nobles) is just as silly as God being the originator of rights abuses.  Both points of view have alternately been used throughout history, depending on the popular fiction of the age.
View Quote
Well that is until America adopted the God given rights as law of the land. A new Nation banning slavery and granting slaves the same rights as anyone else. Think about that, 1000s of years of slavery ended by a new Nation under a God.
Holy shit it boggles the mind!
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:14:18 AM EDT
[#43]
rights are a human construct

liberty is a fundamental law of nature

man can subvert liberty just as he does any other law of nature
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:15:47 AM EDT
[#44]
Rights are the things you're morally justified to use force in defending.

Life, liberty, and property are the three basic human rights.

It doesn't mean no one will try to take them or that you will always be successful in defending them. it just means you can use force to defend them and you're not committing a moral wrong.

This only really matters to people with a conscience. Might makes right is how animals and sociopaths live, an advanced society cannot function on that basis. If the majority comes to believe that might makes right then the society is doomed to failure, e.g. communism.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:15:57 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Thank God!

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.  John Adams

This is the truth of the matter. Look at this thread. Freedom minded men willing to accept that our God given rights can be taken by another man. How pathetic.
View Quote
What version of God(s)?

If some tribal backward savage in the heart of the Amazon never heard the word of Jesus Christ in 1776. Does he have the same Rights? 

What about Catholics or Jews? 

Who's God is our nation based on? Especially since we have this whole freedom of religion thing going on. 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:17:13 AM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Which God...cause your god is different than someone else's god or even the god of the founding fathers...

God requires Faith and no proof.

If god cannot be proven to exist or not exist...why would you allow your rights to rely on something that cannot be proven.
View Quote
1000s of years of documentation is proof even to the scientific community or it should be.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:18:37 AM EDT
[#47]
Read the preamble to the Declaration of Independence...


If you don't like the idea of God, then replace the word "Creator" with "Nature" and means the same thing.

The idea of liberty necessitates that it exists always.  

This is the enlightment folks, you can't turn the light of liberty off once its has been lit.  Well unless you kill everybody that has ever been told the idea...  then you can kill liberty.

Patrick Henry had that figured out, he put it much more bluntly than me.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:21:51 AM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What version of God(s)?

If some tribal backward savage in the heart of the Amazon never heard the word of Jesus Christ in 1776. Does he have the same Rights? 

What about Catholics or Jews? 

Who's God is our nation based on? Especially since we have this whole freedom of religion thing going on. 
View Quote
There is only one God. 2000 years ago there was no internet so the news of a massiah took hundreds if years to spread.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:22:53 AM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Well that is until America adopted the God given rights as law of the land. A new Nation banning slavery and granting slaves the same rights as anyone else. Think about that, 1000s of years of slavery ended by a new Nation under a God.
Holy shit it boggles the mind!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


This statement ignores most of recorded history.

Feudal lords?   God ordained you to rule over these serfs.  

The King?   God ordained you.  Nevermind this uppity parliament.  

Slave owners?   Well, clearly God ordained this slavery as the natural order.  Otherwise, it would be immoral to enslave my fellow human like this.

God as the originator of rights (well, for anyone but nobles) is just as silly as God being the originator of rights abuses.  Both points of view have alternately been used throughout history, depending on the popular fiction of the age.
Well that is until America adopted the God given rights as law of the land. A new Nation banning slavery and granting slaves the same rights as anyone else. Think about that, 1000s of years of slavery ended by a new Nation under a God.
Holy shit it boggles the mind!
Except we continued the practice of chattel slavery. Slavery ended for three reasons.

1. Economic
2. Society started to change the views on the issue
3. One side killed and starved enough of the other to end the matter

Both sides professed that their cause was ordained as just and righteous under the teachings of the Holy Book. 

My God says that I can own people and beat my wife. Another dude's God says that he can marry many women and rape children. Another guy's God says that he can fuck little boys and make them drink poison. 

I believe in God.... I do not believe in Man claiming to know what God wants. All religions have man twisting them for personal gain. 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:24:49 AM EDT
[#50]
Rights are God-given/natural in nature, but aren't universally recognized.


Governments must recognize those natural rights you have, or you likely won't enjoy them.
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