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Posted: 9/17/2004 2:03:01 PM EST
I pointed out the picture of that Hk 51 in IRAQ to a Canuck friend today...and commented on how expensive etc. He asked me a question that I didn't know the answer to.

He said:

"Why has the USA not gone with a Bullpup rifle is my question.

Everyone is developing one or using one, in the first world nations, except Canada. "
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:05:12 PM EST
Try shooting weak hand.
The triggers almost always suck.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:06:11 PM EST
Cause they look too foreign
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:06:26 PM EST

Reaping burns a lot of calories...
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:07:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By satcong:
I pointed out the picture of that Hk 51 in IRAQ to a Canuck friend today...and commented on how expensive etc. He asked me a question that I didn't know the answer to.

He said:

"Why has the USA not gone with a Bullpup rifle is my question.

Everyone is developing one or using one, in the first world nations, except Canada. "



That isn't true actually. Germany isn't using one and neither is Switzerland.
The reasons for the US not adapting one are many, but the main one is, bullpups can't be fired by lefties unless they are configured for it, which usually requires taking the weapon apart and swapping parts around. An M16 with built in brass deflector can be used by a rightie or a leftie without any tinkering.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:07:45 PM EST
They are ugly.

We not only have to be able to kill anyone, anywhere, but we have to look good doing it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:07:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:09:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By satcong:
I pointed out the picture of that Hk 51 in IRAQ to a Canuck friend today...and commented on how expensive etc. He asked me a question that I didn't know the answer to.

He said:

"Why has the USA not gone with a Bullpup rifle is my question.

Everyone is developing one or using one, in the first world nations, except Canada. "



That's kind of ignorant. Who really uses them anyway? Britain is ditching theirs, that leaves Australia and France?
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:10:00 PM EST
Thank you for the help...
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:11:14 PM EST
If you have a malfunction and the round blows the chamber ------
so it blows your head off also.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:11:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:12:15 PM EST
they are gayhock.gif
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:12:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:12:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:16:52 PM EST
Also most of the countries who have them are afraid to use them. They may melt if it rains on them.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:17:54 PM EST
We are Americans.

No other response is required.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:19:21 PM EST
To the best of my knowledge, the bullpup configuration doesn't lend itself well to accurate marksmanship either. I really have trouble seeing the USMC using a rifle like that. Add that to the "leftie" issue and there you go.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:20:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
An M16 with built in brass deflector can be used by a rightie or a leftie without any tinkering.


So that's what that little nubby thing is. I'm left-eye dominant so I appreciate it and wouldn't want a hole burned in my face from a bullpup. Even my G3 with Al semi-auto receiver somehow flings the brass forward and it doesn't even have a deflector. Sorry to change the subject.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:27:29 PM EST
Asking if you can ask a question means you've already used up your allotment of question asking for the day.

Come back tomorrow.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:33:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 2:34:14 PM EST by Tonster]
Because as the "World Superpower" we don't have do do anything but what WE want too!!!!
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:36:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 2:36:46 PM EST by shaggy]
In addition to whats been said about weak (left) side shooting and shorter sight radius, bullpup users suffer from a slower mag change. The placement of the mag well near your shoulder does not lend itself to fast mag changes, and will almost certainly require a shooter to break their grip and sight picture during a mag change - with something like an M16, you can do a tactical mag change, keeping one in the chamber and target covered if necessary during the change.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:40:43 PM EST
As mentioned, it's hard to shoot weakside with it, which is semi-important when clearing corners in urban areas.

They have transfer bars from the trigger to the hammer, which usually introduces slop in the trigger pull. But military triggers are usually heavy anyway.

The alternative is either a folding or telescoping stock. The later seems to be preferred, since you can adjust it to wearing body armor, heavy clothing, etc.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:42:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 2:44:08 PM EST by ikor]
In general, satcong, bullpup designs suck. None has even a dercent trigger, and even the best...argueably the Steyer...is not up to the platform of the M4 yet, and never will be...my opinion only here.

They are a royal PITA for transitioniong to weak shoulder, tend...I will give the Steyer its's due here, it IS damned reliable...to be less reliable than more conventional designs, and are, mostly, a waste of time, money and space. In short, there is no good reason to use this design other than the increase in barrel length versus the overall length of the weapon. NO SF group in the world that I know of uses a bullpup by preference...not the Austrians, not the Brits and not the Israelis...all of whom manufacture the things. (They all use M4 carbines when the going gets tough)

Tell your Canadian friend he needs to educate humself on his weapons a bit more.

And WTF would the French know about fighting? The Legion, maybe...but only maybe...the French, NO!
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:07:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 3:07:47 PM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By ikor:
In general, satcong, bullpup designs suck. None has even a dercent trigger, and even the best...argueably the Steyer...is not up to the platform of the M4 yet, and never will be...my opinion only here.



I disagree - it's all a matter of tradeoffs.

The trigger issue is not that big a deal for military triggers, which are very heavy to start with. My bullpup trigger is no worse than my other ARs or the FAL I used to have.

The leftie issue is definite a problem, but it can be fixed - with either a downward ejection (like the new FN p2000), or some other technical redesign. Other solutions such as switchable ejection seem to provide a reasonable solution for most applciations.

To me, the benefit of a longer than 20" barrel in an overall rifle length that is less than comparable rifles with 14" barrels is huge (in terms of .223 ballistics) and the vastly improved balance that allows one-handed shooting is also a real improvement. How many of you can shoot a 20" AR one-hande standing? I can do that with my bullpup.

I am aware of the shortcomings, but I think a well-designed bullpup is inherently a superior military rifle.

Just my opinion as well.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:09:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By satcong:
Thank you for the help...



Hey, man--ask a legitimate question, in a polite tone, and you will NOT get your head bitten off. Remember the AR15.com motto--"Collectively, we know EVERYTHING!"



Exactly....

Now, ask, "What's better, the AR15 or the <fill in the blank>?", and expect the blood to get knee-deep in short order....
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:14:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By satcong:
Thank you for the help...



Hey, man--ask a legitimate question, in a polite tone, and you will NOT get your head bitten off. Remember the AR15.com motto--"Collectively, we know EVERYTHING!"



[Queen of Hearts] OFF WITH HIS HEAD! [/Queen of Hearts]

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:17:10 PM EST
Because they are a known dangerous breed. Hasnt this been discussed and beatent to death here???



Nevermind.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:19:11 PM EST
unless it ejects shell on the bottom, try shooting around the LEFT corner of a wall or something....
your head will be sevely exposed and blow off
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:19:22 PM EST
Notice the only guy in favor of them is from europe....that should tell you something.....


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:27:33 PM EST
Bullpups are bad news…

The only major Army that uses a Bullpup are British who use the SA80, and can't wait to replace it from 2007-12 with the HK G36 after all the trouble they had developing it. All the British Special Forces refuse to use the SA80… HK MP53's, M4's and Diemaco C8's & 7's are their weapons of choice

The only significant bullpups in First World Armies are…

The British SA80A2… now fixed, ugly as sin but now reliable and very accurate, but I still can't shoot one as I'm a lefty (blind eye) … so I shoot the AR15…

The French FAMAS… looks ugly as hell but is apparently a very good weapon.

And the Austrian Steyer… a very fine weapon with an oustanding reputation for reliability.

The Bullpup was a 'good idea' but most weapon designers seem have cast it off onto the dustbin of weapon design history and are going back to conventional designs.

ANdy


Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:38:27 PM EST
Because they are dumbass ugly and no one holding one can stop laughing long enough to shoot a bad guy.

Bullpup, Mulepup.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:43:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:
Bullpups are bad news…

The only major Army that uses a Bullpup are British who use the SA80, and can't wait to replace it from 2007-12 with the HK G36 after all the trouble they had developing it. All the British Special Forces refuse to use the SA80… HK MP53's, M4's and Diemaco C8's & 7's are their weapons of choice

The only significant bullpups in First World Armies are…

The British SA80A2… now fixed, ugly as sin but now reliable and very accurate, but I still can't shoot one as I'm a lefty (blind eye) … so I shoot the AR15…

The French FAMAS… looks ugly as hell but is apparently a very good weapon.

And the Austrian Steyer… a very fine weapon with an oustanding reputation for reliability.

The Bullpup was a 'good idea' but most weapon designers seem have cast it off onto the dustbin of weapon design history and are going back to conventional designs.

ANdy





The Australians also use their own, locally-produced version of the Steyr. Steyr wanted to produce it for them, but Australia insisted on building their own plants...and they've had nothing but trouble ever since.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:50:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Because they are dumbass ugly and no one holding one can stop laughing long enough to shoot a bad guy.

Bullpup, Mulepup.



So true!

Royal Marines Recon guys… they use M16's



The other poor sods get things like this latest monstrosity… the SA80 Carbine for Armour Crews, Pilots and REMFS…



… nuff said.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:59:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By echo459:
they are gayhock.gif




+1
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:59:10 PM EST
That bullpup is one ugly club.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:03:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By echo459:
they are gay





Amen
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:11:03 PM EST

"The French FAMAS… looks ugly as hell but is apparently a very good weapon."


When the hell do they use it?
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:33:49 PM EST
Speaking of bullpups, were the guys in Resident Evil 2 using M-17s?
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:37:54 PM EST

Bullpups may be lots of fun on the gun range but, ......

The British had a bullpup design when they were fighting the war in Ireland.

When the troops very badly needed to switch the rifle to the other shoulder and shoot left handed so they could shoot around a corner of a wall (so as not to expose themselves to the enemy) the were unable to do so because the shell would have been ejected right into their face.

So many times they were at a great disadvantage becasue of their bullpup rifles.

Bullpups suck ass in the real world of combat. (besides, the're gay) (and french, which is DOUBLE GAY)

Zen



"This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine"

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:03:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof


How many of you can shoot a 20" AR one-hande standing? I can do that with my bullpup



I think if the AR had a barrel of similar length to an average bullpup it would be quite easy.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:19:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:20:46 PM EST
Bullpups...UGH...
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:29:10 PM EST
The FN F2000 and Styer AUG are the only ones that could give even the M16 a run for its money.

Theres just much better designs out there...

Looks at the G36, XM8, M4, Sigs, and even the AK74's.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:44:31 PM EST
At the recent Virginia Black Rifle Day we had a lefty try out a Walther G22 bullpup. Unfortunately for her the bolt handle reciprocates with the bolt similar to a 10/22. The trip to the ER put a damper on her afternoon and time will tell if she gets to keep the tooth.

Most bullpups don't have that particular engineering flaw, but it's an example of how things that are fine on a standard rifle are a big problem on a bullpup.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:54:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
At the recent Virginia Black Rifle Day we had a lefty try out a Walther G22 bullpup. Unfortunately for her the bolt handle reciprocates with the bolt similar to a 10/22. The trip to the ER put a damper on her afternoon and time will tell if she gets to keep the tooth.

Most bullpups don't have that particular engineering flaw, but it's an example of how things that are fine on a standard rifle are a big problem on a bullpup.



Those Walthers are POS's!!!
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:35:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 6:37:33 PM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By luger355:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof


How many of you can shoot a 20" AR one-hande standing? I can do that with my bullpup



I think if the AR had a barrel of similar length to an average bullpup it would be quite easy.




Uhm - you DO understand that the ENTIRE point of a bullpup is to put a rifle-length barrel into a package shorter than a carbine, right?

My bushmaster bullpup is shorter than an AR carbine with a 14" barrel - but the bullpup has a 21.5" barrel. So in terms of handling, weight, etc - the comparison to a 21.5" bullpup, should AT LEAST be a 20" AR. I cannot shoot a 20" AR one handed (and that's a lighter and shorter barrel than my bullpup), and I'm guessing you cannot either.

ETA: Just as an observation, I've also noticed that many people who really do not like bullpups have never actually used one, and talk with great confidence about the IMPOSSIBILITY of shooting one left handed, even though they've never actually tried it themselves.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:15:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Bullpups are bad news…

The only major Army that uses a Bullpup are British who use the SA80, and can't wait to replace it from 2007-12 with the HK G36 after all the trouble they had developing it. All the British Special Forces refuse to use the SA80… HK MP53's, M4's and Diemaco C8's & 7's are their weapons of choice

The only significant bullpups in First World Armies are…

The British SA80A2… now fixed, ugly as sin but now reliable and very accurate, but I still can't shoot one as I'm a lefty (blind eye) … so I shoot the AR15…

The French FAMAS… looks ugly as hell but is apparently a very good weapon.

And the Austrian Steyer… a very fine weapon with an oustanding reputation for reliability.

The Bullpup was a 'good idea' but most weapon designers seem have cast it off onto the dustbin of weapon design history and are going back to conventional designs.

ANdy





The Australians also use their own, locally-produced version of the Steyr. Steyr wanted to produce it for them, but Australia insisted on building their own plants...and they've had nothing but trouble ever since.



Ive heard good and bad things about the F88s. I wouldnt say we have had nothing but trouble, i think its just exaggerated.

The F88 is basically an improved AUG. What improvements have been made I do not know.

We are getting 30 000 M4's IIRC
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:21:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
Speaking of bullpups, were the guys in Resident Evil 2 using M-17s?



Tavors and Sig 551s, mainly.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:29:06 PM EST
I don't know, never shot a bullpup, but I do love the look of the AUG and the FAMAS.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:30:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:41:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By satcong:
I pointed out the picture of that Hk 51 in IRAQ to a Canuck friend today...and commented on how expensive etc. He asked me a question that I didn't know the answer to.

He said:

"Why has the USA not gone with a Bullpup rifle is my question.

Everyone is developing one or using one, in the first world nations, except Canada. "



That's kind of ignorant. Who really uses them anyway? Britain is ditching theirs, that leaves Australia and France?



Fixed it for ya, you know damn well the French have never used their rifles.
Dropped= yes, used= no
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