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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/10/2005 12:35:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2005 12:39:02 PM EDT by rit]
I am confused about certain things involving federal gun law and the legality of wether or not I can own one.

On the form you would normally fill out it asks you "Have you ever been convicted of domestic violence".

When I was 18 I was charged with domestic disorderly conduct against my parents. Stupid immature arguiing that basically had me and my father threatening to throw down. Mom freaks out and calls police. I get charged with domestic disorderly.

Life experiences have shown me that there is alot of scum walking the Earth. I have had guns pulled on me, know poeple who have shot people. Seen people get jumped.

So I have decided I want to buy a assault rifle, and get a CCW to carry a gun.

I have read through the domestic violence laws but the only thing I have seen that says someone who has commited domestic violence cannot own a firearm is if they have a permanent no contact order.

So what does Federal law saying about someone like me owning a firearm?

I want to avoid the aggravation of having to goto gun class's, filling out the paperwork. And finding out there is some law I dont know about that excludes me. I figure the best place to ask is here.

Thanks. Or should I goto my local police station?
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 6:30:34 PM EDT
Where you convicted of anything? If not, you're good to go i think.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 7:54:01 PM EDT
Better stay out of MA!

If you were convicted of anything in the DV category, you are lifetime disqualified in MA. This is regardless of any fine, jail time or even if you were let off with probation.

If you were NOT convicted of any DV crime, but were charged with it, you still have less than a 50-50 chance of ever getting a MA LTC. Most chiefs would NOT issue it under their total discretion of "suitability".
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 9:13:51 PM EDT
Do what I do, when ever I think I may have warrants, or something, I just go buy a gun, if the back ground check clears I figure "good to go!". That's the best way to find out if I'm on AMW list.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 11:37:44 PM EDT
Im a nolo contendere.

Which means it cant be used against me in any further judgement?

So I should be good to go.

I will try and fill out the form and see if it comes back negative. I think I can get my record expunged anyways. I do have a local shooting range so I was thinking it would be cool to learn how to shoot an m4. Its like 5 minutes away.

I dont live in MA, I live in Rhode Island

Link Posted: 7/11/2005 5:24:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
I will try and fill out the form and see if it comes back negative.



Do you mean try an buy a firearm by filling out a 4473 to see if your NICS comes back denied? DO NOT DO THIS. Falsification of a 4473 is federal offense which could result in your arrest.

Contact an attorney in your area who is familiar with federal/state firearms related law and obtain a copy of your court records. Based on what you were convicted of your attorney can determine whether you are prohibited from possessing firearms and if there is any relief available to you.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 12:27:17 PM EDT
I think it is if you "knowingly falsify it". Obviously I am not knowingly falsifying it since I have no clue.

My state, Rhode Island, has all criminal records available on the internet for free.

My record shows a "domestic disordlery" nolo contendere as my record.

Which means I plead guilty, but I pleaded nolo. Which makes me exempt from any further use of that crime against me in the future.

Which probably means something like filling out a form 4473.

I dont know, I thought someone here could help. But I guess your all as stupid as me when it comes to it.

Link Posted: 7/11/2005 12:36:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
I think it is if you "knowingly falsify it". Obviously I am not knowingly falsifying it since I have no clue.

My state, Rhode Island, has all criminal records available on the internet for free.

My record shows a "domestic disordlery" nolo contendere as my record.

Which means I plead guilty, but I pleaded nolo. Which makes me exempt from any further use of that crime against me in the future.

Which probably means something like filling out a form 4473.

I dont know, I thought someone here could help. But I guess your all as stupid as me when it comes to it.




Nolo doesn't mean what you think it does. It means, "I didn't do it, and he deserved it anyway." and the State assigns a punishment instead of dragging you through a trial. It's effectively the same as a conviction most of the time. You screwed yourself accepting that deal. Lawyer up, it's the only way to know if you're disabled or not.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 12:43:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jimmy_Hoffa:
Do what I do, when ever I think I may have warrants, or something, I just go buy a gun, if the back ground check clears I figure "good to go!". That's the best way to find out if I'm on AMW list.



That is funny...I used to give blood in college for the "free test."
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 12:54:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
I am confused about certain things involving federal gun law and the legality of wether or not I can own one.

On the form you would normally fill out it asks you "Have you ever been convicted of domestic violence".

When I was 18 I was charged with domestic disorderly conduct against my parents. Stupid immature arguiing that basically had me and my father threatening to throw down. Mom freaks out and calls police. I get charged with domestic disorderly.

Life experiences have shown me that there is alot of scum walking the Earth. I have had guns pulled on me, know poeple who have shot people. Seen people get jumped.

So I have decided I want to buy a assault rifle, and get a CCW to carry a gun.

I have read through the domestic violence laws but the only thing I have seen that says someone who has commited domestic violence cannot own a firearm is if they have a permanent no contact order.

So what does Federal law saying about someone like me owning a firearm?

I want to avoid the aggravation of having to goto gun class's, filling out the paperwork. And finding out there is some law I dont know about that excludes me. I figure the best place to ask is here.

Thanks. Or should I goto my local police station?



Hope your not going to try to Conceal an AR.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 12:58:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
I think it is if you "knowingly falsify it". Obviously I am not knowingly falsifying it since I have no clue.



If the question is, "have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor for domestic violence?"
And you answer "No", that can be very easily viewed as knowingly providing a misleading answer based on the information you provided.



My record shows a "domestic disordlery" nolo contendere as my record.

Which means I plead guilty, but I pleaded nolo. Which makes me exempt from any further use of that crime against me in the future.

Which probably means something like filling out a form 4473.



This set of statements reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.

Nolo Contender takes the place of pleading guilty -- it means, in Latin, that you do not contest the charges against you. The exemption from further prosecution may work in state courts and have special RI features under state law, but firearms ownership is regulated under FEDERAL law as well. Additionally, firearms purchases for denials of ownership for domestic violence convictions are not repeat prosecutions.

Pleading nolo contender would exempt you from further prosecution from that crime due to the 5th Amendment Double Jeopardy clause, but that has nothing to do with a plea of nolo contender vs. guilty vs. a conviction following a plea of "not guilty".




I dont know, I thought someone here could help. But I guess your all as stupid as me when it comes to it.



When it comes to legal advice and you have your hat in your hand, you get what you pay for.

That said, look at 18 USC 921 Definitions and 922 Illegal Acts

--------------922------------------
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

--------------921---------------
(33)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (C), the term “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence” means an offense that—
(i) is a misdemeanor under Federal or State law; and
(ii) has, as an element, the use or attempted use of physical force, or the threatened use of a deadly weapon, committed by a current or former spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim, by a person with whom the victim shares a child in common, by a person who is cohabiting with or has cohabited with the victim as a spouse, parent, or guardian, or by a person similarly situated to a spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim.
(B)
(i) A person shall not be considered to have been convicted of such an offense for purposes of this chapter, unless—
(I) the person was represented by counsel in the case, or knowingly and intelligently waived the right to counsel in the case; and
(II) in the case of a prosecution for an offense described in this paragraph for which a person was entitled to a jury trial in the jurisdiction in which the case was tried, either
(aa) the case was tried by a jury, or
(bb) the person knowingly and intelligently waived the right to have the case tried by a jury, by guilty plea or otherwise.
-----------------------------------

Question: does your case fall under the definition above?
As RKBAR15 and other have suggested, it will probably take a local attorney versed in your state's laws and familiarity with your case to determine whether your conviction (regardless of your plea) is within the definition above and (as importantly) outside state law requirements and legal interpretations as well.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 6:13:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2005 6:15:08 PM EDT by rit]
Since it was me versus my father It wouldnt fall under the definition of domestic violence since I am not the guardian, spouse, parent, and I dont have a child in common with the victim.

My State does define my crime as domestic violence but not the Federal government. And there is an "And" statement, so that means I need both elements of a Federal domestic violence and a State one. And my crime doesnt fall under a misdemeanor Federal domestic violence, only State.

So again, im thinking im good to go but if you think not, please speak up.


And no lol im not planning on concealing an AR. I want to get a m4 type to shoot at my local range, and for home defense, And then I want to get a personal firearm I can carry in the form of a concealed weapon as in a handgun.

Also one last question if anybody knows the answer, I am at the point now I can get my record expunged. Lets say I am exempt with my current record from owning a gun, if I get my record expunged I should be cleared to own a firearm? Do record expungements have that affect?

Thanks
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 6:12:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
Since it was me versus my father It wouldnt fall under the definition of domestic violence since I am not the guardian, spouse, parent, and I dont have a child in common with the victim.


It is DV, as you were 18 and there is a parent relationship.

Also one last question if anybody knows the answer, I am at the point now I can get my record expunged. Lets say I am not exempt with my current record from owning a gun, if I get my record expunged I should be cleared to own a firearm? Do record expungements have that affect?
hanks


Yes. IMO: It is like you were never arrested.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 10:51:59 AM EDT
THanks I guess the best thing is to just get my record expunged. This way instead of trying to bend the interpretation of the law in my favor, I can just go at it with a clean slate.

If you still asked me though, I would say my crime doesnt fall under the definition. But judges are generally stupid and will make their own bias judgements regardless of what the law says, including the US Constitution, unfortunatly.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 9:59:29 PM EDT
My advice is to give it up. A "nolo contendre" or no contest plea is still recognized as an admission of guilt. And it doesn't matter what the Fed. definition vs. the State. The question is "Were you ever convicted of a Crime involving Domestic Violence?" Sorry to say, but 18 is an adult.
Link Posted: 7/14/2005 1:03:35 AM EDT
Huh.

It doesnt matter if the form says "Have you ever commited domestic violence".

If there is no law barring domestic violence abusers from owning a firearm, the form question means jack.

My aprticular crime didnt fit under the definition of domestic violence. That means I have every much a right to own a firearms as you do.

And I would even go as far to say the 2nd Amendment grants me the right to own a gun regardless if I was amass murderer, as long as I was free and still a citizen.

So next time make a little more sense so you dont make youself look like the pieces of stink that you are.
Link Posted: 7/14/2005 5:28:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
Huh.

It doesnt matter if the form says "Have you ever commited domestic violence".

If there is no law barring domestic violence abusers from owning a firearm, the form question means jack.

My aprticular crime didnt fit under the definition of domestic violence. That means I have every much a right to own a firearms as you do.

And I would even go as far to say the 2nd Amendment grants me the right to own a gun regardless if I was amass murderer, as long as I was free and still a citizen.

So next time make a little more sense so you dont make youself look like the pieces of stink that you are.



I've been watching this thread. I find it rather interesting that you, rit, come to ask what we as members think of your situation and whether or not you can legally own a firearm. Then when someone gives you their opinion and it's not a "yes you sure can!" you defend your reasoning that you CAN own one and go so far as to slam those who don't think you can. I need to ask: you obviously have your own view, so why did you even bother asking your question?
Link Posted: 7/14/2005 4:50:56 PM EDT
You need a to call a lawer or call ATF and ask them.
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 12:27:00 PM EDT
I just am defensive to the fact that we as a society think non violent criminals offenders should have their constitutional rights taken away.

Call me a patriot.

I served my punishment, I never inflicted violence on anyone. I am not a felon. All I did was get into an argument with someone. We never ended up fighting.

So dont come here and say I dont have the right to keep and bear arms.

I have actually been in life threatening situations with criminals and firearms. And I have seen crimes happen where if I did have a CCW I could of legally killed someone to save someone else's life.

I take it seriously and I figured someone here would know for sure.

But you all are as clueless as me, and you all have opinions but no real answer.

So keep your anti 2nd Amendment opinions out of here unless I Will rebuttal you in a not so kind way. Thank you.
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 12:37:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
I just am defensive to the fact that we as a society think non violent criminals offenders should have their constitutional rights taken away.

Call me a patriot.

I served my punishment, I never inflicted violence on anyone. I am not a felon. All I did was get into an argument with someone. We never ended up fighting.

So dont come here and say I dont have the right to keep and bear arms.

I have actually been in life threatening situations with criminals and firearms. And I have seen crimes happen where if I did have a CCW I could of legally killed someone to save someone else's life.

I take it seriously and I figured someone here would know for sure.

But you all are as clueless as me, and you all have opinions but no real answer.

So keep your anti 2nd Amendment opinions out of here unless I Will rebuttal you in a not so kind way. Thank you.



You're absolutely missing the point! And for the most part, you're even preaching to the choir here.

However, your question to us was "I am confused about certain things involving federal gun law and the legality of wether or not I can own one... So what does Federal law saying about someone like me owning a firearm?"

People answered your question (with some opinions interjected) and your reaction was to jump down their throats if their answer wasn't what you wanted to hear. Not a great way to start out on this forum.
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 12:58:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
But you all are as clueless as me, and you all have opinions but no real answer.




otto_esq spent quite a bit of time and summed it up for you in an excellent post. Like I said before you need a local attorney to research the case law concerning BOTH state and federal firearms disqualifications. No one here can give you legal advice about your specific issue. You are looking at it as a simple reading of the applicable statutes. It is never that simple.

I can tell you this. You will never get your firearms disqualification removed from your record by mentioning the 2nd amendment over the Internet.

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:59:43 PM EDT
I think you're a freak.

Just because you "didn't committ violence on anyone" doesn't mean that you weren't convicted of a domestic violence offense. Many crimes which are not violent to a person do attach to the domestic violence statute-such as disorderly conduct (yelling/profanity), criminal damage, and threats and intimidation. It is usually the responding officer's discretion as to whether or not to charge the crime under the domestic violence statute.


I'll tell you what-provide your full name, date of birth, and social sec. number and I'll tell you in a few minutes if you can own a gun.

Now I can understand why you and your dad got into an argument. You're lucky he didn't kick your whiny little ass.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 6:28:32 PM EDT
otto did a very fine job giving you the in's and outs in legal terms and you insult his response?

A pox upon your first rifle.
Link Posted: 7/17/2005 3:31:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pieceofstink:
I think you're a freak.

Just because you "didn't committ violence on anyone" doesn't mean that you weren't convicted of a domestic violence offense. Many crimes which are not violent to a person do attach to the domestic violence statute-such as disorderly conduct (yelling/profanity), criminal damage, and threats and intimidation. It is usually the responding officer's discretion as to whether or not to charge the crime under the domestic violence statute.


I'll tell you what-provide your full name, date of birth, and social sec. number and I'll tell you in a few minutes if you can own a gun.

Now I can understand why you and your dad got into an argument. You're lucky he didn't kick your whiny little ass.



Thats what I was charged with. Disorderly conduct. As in yelling and swearing.

Even though my father is a black belt in Judo, I severly doubt he can kick my whiny ass.

But your someone who doesnt support what the US Constitution stands for.

On principal I can agree that criminals dont deserve to own firearms, but the Constitution doesnt grant ourselves the ability to take away guns from criminals. Im just saying I beleive in keeping the integrity of the Constitution. Not because I think taking away guns from domestic violent offenders is wrong, because I think the Constitution is more important to uphold. If there was a ratification of the Constitution and laws were changed to allow the government to pass laws taking away people's firearms, fine. But that isnt the case so I am going to go on the defensive to anyone who thinks they currently can.

I was looking for a definite answer. I havent gotten it. Im not a lawyer but I can read. And from what I read I think I can buy a gun.

And I never said I didnt apprecaite otto's response, because I do. Im just saying basically everyone is as clueless as I was about a definitive "yes or no", or wasnt willing to say so.

Learn some respect .
Link Posted: 7/17/2005 4:40:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:

Originally Posted By pieceofstink:
I think you're a freak.

Just because you "didn't committ violence on anyone" doesn't mean that you weren't convicted of a domestic violence offense. Many crimes which are not violent to a person do attach to the domestic violence statute-such as disorderly conduct (yelling/profanity), criminal damage, and threats and intimidation. It is usually the responding officer's discretion as to whether or not to charge the crime under the domestic violence statute.


I'll tell you what-provide your full name, date of birth, and social sec. number and I'll tell you in a few minutes if you can own a gun.

Now I can understand why you and your dad got into an argument. You're lucky he didn't kick your whiny little ass.



Thats what I was charged with. Disorderly conduct. As in yelling and swearing.

Even though my father is a black belt in Judo, I severly doubt he can kick my whiny ass.

But your someone who doesnt support what the US Constitution stands for.

On principal I can agree that criminals dont deserve to own firearms, but the Constitution doesnt grant ourselves the ability to take away guns from criminals. Im just saying I beleive in keeping the integrity of the Constitution. Not because I think taking away guns from domestic violent offenders is wrong, because I think the Constitution is more important to uphold. If there was a ratification of the Constitution and laws were changed to allow the government to pass laws taking away people's firearms, fine. But that isnt the case so I am going to go on the defensive to anyone who thinks they currently can.

I was looking for a definite answer. I havent gotten it. Im not a lawyer but I can read. And from what I read I think I can buy a gun.

And I never said I didnt apprecaite otto's response, because I do. Im just saying basically everyone is as clueless as I was about a definitive "yes or no", or wasnt willing to say so.

Learn some respect .



You're all dicked up. If you pled nolo to a DV charge, you're not able to legally buy a gun. Period. And you're a whiny little ass to boot.
Link Posted: 7/17/2005 4:41:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rit:
I was looking for a definite answer. I havent gotten it.



A definitive answer? You received one in this thread. If you don't think that you did, the ONLY way to improve on it is to PONY UP AND PAY FOR AN ATTORNEY. Ask him your question.



Im not a lawyer but I can read. And from what I read I think I can buy a gun.



Then go ahead and buy a gun and let us know how the 4473 comes out for you.



And I never said I didnt apprecaite otto's response, because I do. Im just saying basically everyone is as clueless as I was about a definitive "yes or no", or wasnt willing to say so.

Learn some respect .



Goes both ways. YOU asked the question and when you received responses you didn't like, you basically spit on them.
Link Posted: 7/18/2005 11:18:26 AM EDT
Rit-still waiting for your full name, DOB and SSN. I have a program that can run you, and I will let you know right here and now, in front of everybody, if you can legally own a gun.
Link Posted: 7/18/2005 3:12:57 PM EDT
I'm a LEO in RI (hope it wasnt me that hooked you )

To be a conviction your NOLO plea would have to have either a fine, suspended sentance, or actual time served. NOLO probation, NOLO with contribution to VCIF, Nolo filing (which is probably what you received for a first offense) is not a conviction.

You should be good to go.

IM me if you need more details
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 6:46:29 PM EDT
Is this DV law retroactive?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:06:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 6:07:44 PM EDT by Tachyon]

Originally Posted By Fluke:
Is this DV law retroactive?



Sadly, yes. I worked part time at a gunshop last summer and a gentleman came in to purchase a gun. His TICS application was turned down. Of course I don't know the details, but he said the only time he'd ever been arrested was in 1972 for DV.

The slime who wrote this law cared only for the impact it would have in eroding the freedom of all Americans; not for the impact that it would have decades after the fact on people who were suddenly disenfranchised because of something that until the day before was just a past indescretion rather than something that made them a 'less than full citizen'.

ETA: Rit, spend the money to have the incident expunged and you'll never have to worry about it again.

Tachyon
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:43:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tachyon:
ETA: Rit, spend the money to have the incident expunged and you'll never have to worry about it again.

Tachyon




IF you can (which would depend on your state law. My advice to you, whether able to own a firearm or not is to lawyer up and expunge yesterday. If you have a 1st offense most states will strike it for you if you file for expungement. If you ever get another arrest (which might be 50/50 given the beligerence shown) you cannot expunge ANYTHING from your record, so file, calm down, and stay out of trouble.

BTW there is no state that legally sanctions killing, CCW or otherwise. If you interceded and "happened" to kill someone who intended you or another grave harm your actions would likely be considered justified. If you stated intent to KILL in order to intercede you could be charged with 2nd degree murder. It may seem like splitting hairs, but shooting someone in the side of the head with the intent of STOPPING a rape is not the same in the eyes of the law as the intent of KILLING to stop the crime. You should learn that if you ever qualify for CCW & take the class.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 7:27:52 PM EDT
I don't think this guy meets the definition of domestic violence under federal law. He was a child, not a parent and the law specifcally states it must be a parenta; relationship to the victim and a parental relationship, in my book, means a parent to a child, not a child upward to a parent.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:08:38 PM EDT
DUDE, just go buy a freak'n gun allready!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:24:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rit:

Life experiences have shown me that there is alot of scum walking the Earth. I have had guns pulled on me, know poeple who have shot people. Seen people get jumped.

So I have decided I want to buy a assault rifle, and get a CCW to carry a gun.

quote]

Sorry to sound like an ass, but if you know a lot of people who have been shot and had a gun pulled on you, you need to get a life first. Stop doing stupid shit, hanging out at the wrong places, or hanging around the wrong people. Spend your money on getting your life right. Then put you money into the gun. You will be safe by avoiding bad things, people, and places.
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