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Posted: 6/17/2009 12:51:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 12:57:26 PM EST by lamarbrog]
We've had a thread recently, on "reasonable" gun laws...

I'm 16. Legally, I can't buy a gun. I know that, you know that... And I don't think anything is going to change that.

I have, however, been shooting since I can remember. My father purchased a rifle dedicated for my use when I was 8. I have been the driving force behind 90% of the firearms-related purchases he's made in the past 5 years, since I have the time to research the options, talk with people like you can find here on ARFCOM to understand what works and what is junk, etc.

Next year, I am going to be an "apprentice" of sorts at a local gun store, as part of a school project.



So.... You're elected President, Congress Amends the Constitution, it is fully approved, that you, the President, will personally reform the Nation's gun laws... It is your decision...

Can I buy a gun?

PS: None of this... Well, only YOU can.... Either people of 16 years of age can buy guns or they can't... No "case-by-case" or anything.

Any typed opinions?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 12:53:25 PM EST
No
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 12:58:58 PM EST
bb gun
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:02:18 PM EST
..... Anyone want to say why?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:02:48 PM EST
Cant buy cigs, beers, porn i'm gonna vote no.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:03:00 PM EST
If I were president I'd outlaw teenagers... "GET OFF MY LAWN"
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:03:16 PM EST
No.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:04:32 PM EST
I feel your pain, but owning a firearm is a huge responsibility, and most research has shown that the area of the brain that deals with impulse control and good decision making does not fully develop until the early 20's.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:04:42 PM EST



I'm the only one that votes "yes"?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:04:48 PM EST
MOST, not all but MOST 16 year olds these days can't even tie their own shoes. MOST definitely have no respect for authority. Just like gun laws themselves, leave it to the idiots of society to ruin it for the legit.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:05:05 PM EST
No 18.
You helped you dad pick out guns when you were 11? Damn.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:05:14 PM EST
However when you are eighteen and you can legal age to die for your country...


Game on.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:05:26 PM EST
While you may be model soon-to-be citizen with unquestionable responsibility and soberness , as long as a 16 year-old isn't held responsible for his actions as an individual then 16 year-old youth should not be able to own firearms as an individual. A responsible party such as your father can take you to the range, but in most states he, or the adult taking you to the range is responsible for your actions. (BTW... I'm glad that you have had good adults around to foster your interest in a sober fashion)
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:06:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:19:30 PM EST by America-first]
No.

ETA: No matter how mature and responsible most 16 year olds believe themselves to; be their common sense glands still aren't fully functional.

That being said; I owned several guns when I was 16 years old, and in fact, when I was 14 and in high school, I used to take my .22 rifles on the New York City Subway to shoot at the indoor range on Warren Street in Manhattan and nobody batted an eye in those days.

My guns were given to me as gifts since I couldn't buy them for myself and that's the way it should be; the difference being that the responsible adults in my life knew that I had them since they gave them to me.

Allowing 16 year olds to purchase firearms on their own could result in kids owning guns that their parents didn't know about, or for good reason, didn't want them to have.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:06:31 PM EST
NO guns for you. Try again when 18 or 21.

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:07:38 PM EST
I would be inclined to say no. I am 18. When I was 16, I figured I was all big and bad and mature. And perhaps I was. But whenever I run into a 16 year old now adays, I see a much younger and less mature person than myself. I think 18 is the age in which everyone has reasonable judgment, and should have the ability to own firearms, vote, go to adult prison, etc. It obviously varies. I knew mature 16 year olds and know immature 21 year olds. But I think 18 is a good age of "adulthood." Now that's not to say that people under 18 shouldn't shoot. But I think it's the age in which one should be permitted to do what they want, within the realm of the law.

That being said, I would most certainly lower the drinking age, CCW age and handgun/NFA purchasing age to 18. I see no reason for a "double standard." Adults are adults.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:07:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:11:56 PM EST by Assault-Rifle-City]
As an 18 year old I'll tell you why.

Many 25 year olds aren't old enough to buy firearms.

I know plenty of guys who are 18 and the idea of them buying a gun scares the shit out of me.

I'm sure you're responsible but unfortunately, many if not most 16 year olds are not responsible, and do not have the required maturity level to have a firearm without adults around.

Sorry.

ETA: As far as BB guns and pellet rifles etc etc are concerned, you should be able to buy the pistols at 16 and the rifles at 12. I have no idea why you need to be 18 to buy one that shit is retarded.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:08:06 PM EST
This is just sad...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Unless you aren't 18."

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:09:10 PM EST
Just for fun I will be Devil's Advocate, does the 2ndA have an age limit?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:09:46 PM EST
Just get a sick air rifle and group the shit out of it for now, i had alot of pellet guns when i was a minor
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:11:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Burntrubber87:
Just get a sick air rifle and group the shit out of it for now, i had alot of pellet guns when i was a minor

Yeah.... I'll just group the shit out of my Dad's ARs.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:11:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
This is just sad...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Unless you aren't 18."



When is a person old enough? If you're under 18 you're not truly an individual yet. (Legally, that is, you're not responsible for yourself, hence you're not a truly an individual in that sense) As a nation we've said 18 is that magic number. As others above have pointed out, some are ready at 14, some aren't ready at 25. But we've drawn the line at 18. If you want to argue that you should be able to own a gun at 18, be prepared to argue that you should responsible for your actions too. You'll have a whole lot of peers arguing against you. I understand your frustration though.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:12:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:13:53 PM EST by lamarbrog]
I guess my hard part is I don't see why it is acceptable to infringe upon my inalienable rights... Because of the actions and poor decisions of others.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:13:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:15:22 PM EST by ftl2012]

Originally Posted By Burntrubber87:
Just get a sick air rifle and group the shit out of it for now, i had alot of pellet guns when i was a minor
This! We all had to wait, and I'm sure we all can look back and appreciate what we learned during those crucial developmental years. I too had bb guns as a child and had a lot of fun with them.

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:15:27 PM EST
When you turn 18 and look at 16 year olds, you'll know why. I'm 19 and think that the age is fine where it's at, even though I became more interested in firearms when I was 17. Just wait. Make some money and put it into a rifle when you're 18. I am irked at the age 21 for handgun law and here in Maine I can get a CCW but can't buy ammo at a dealer.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:16:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:18:23 PM EST by dbeacon]
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
I guess my hard part is I don't see why it is acceptable to infringe upon my inalienable rights... Because of the actions and poor decisions of others.


You would be rightfully frustrated. We're all frustrated about the limitations on guns that are justified because of a few morons. But it is what it is. Are you prepared to handle the changes that would occur if we considered 16 year olds as adults? It has less to do with age and more to do with legal status.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:18:37 PM EST
If I got the chance to rewrite the Second Amendmen, I would write, "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:20:27 PM EST
Minors are not fully fledged citizens. They are the responsibility of the parents. As a 16 year old the only rights you have are those granted by mom & dad. If they feel you have a right to a firearm, they are free to purchase one on your behalf and allow you to use it as they see fit. Anything else would open the door for further unwelcome intrusions by the .gov into families and individuals' lives.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:20:44 PM EST
yes,plus mandatory training in schools for every child to learn gun safety and marksmanship
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:21:20 PM EST
I'm not getting any "development" during this time... My parents never allowed me a BB gun, and still won't allow me a BB gun, for fear it would cause me to underestimate firearms.

Instead, I can shoot ARs, AKs, SKSs, Mausers, etc. etc. etc. ... By his own admission, I am safer with guns than he is. (Out on the farm, the apparently didn't have clear cut safety rules... He has a hard time keeping his finger off the trigger.) I know more about them than he does, by his own admission. When his friends ask him any questions about his rifles, he just points to me, since I'm the one that decided on the parts, and put it together with him watching.


Really... Nothing in my life would change by being able to buy them myself... It would just be convenient.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:21:51 PM EST
add a T for 100 alex
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:21:53 PM EST
save your money and get yourself a nice b-day present in a few years.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:22:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:27:55 PM EST by Interceptor_Knight]
State by State.... Federal law does not prohibit you form owning, posessing or discharging long guns....... except from a FFL...
Vermont allows you to purchase a long gun from a private party at age 16. 16 is old enough to purchase possess and discharge firearms in my book.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:22:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:26:09 PM EST by kcpwnsgman]
if you are 16, you have no rights.

sorry that's how it is.

you have god given/naturally born rights, like to defend your life, but in terms of constitutional rights, you don't really have any until you're allowed to die for the country at the age of 18.

Drinking and smoking laws should be set at that age too.

at 18 you're old enough to know everything you need to know to live on your own (keep in mind this is MOST people, I'm sure you'd be fine at 16), reasonably think through if you'd want to die for your country and know how to reasonably use force.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:24:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:25:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
if you are 16, you have no rights.

sorry that's how it is.

you have god given/naturally born rights, like to defend your life, but in terms of constitutional rights, you don't really have any until you're allowed to die for the country at the age of 18.

Drinking and smoking laws should be set at that age too.

You get to decide, though...

This isn't about what the government currently decides is Constitutional, etc.


Forget the Constitution for this... Forget about someone else being accountable. If I do harm to another person, I accept full responsibility... That can be part of buying the gun, I sign off that I take full responsibility for any harm done as a result of my ownership of it.

From a pure what is right standpoint... Can I?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:28:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:29:02 PM EST by lamarbrog]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
This is just sad...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Unless you aren't 18."



Do you think 6 year-olds should be allowed to buy guns?


Yes.

A) Where's a six year old going to get the money to buy a gun?

B) If the parents gave the kid sufficient funds to purchase a firearm, surely they knew what it was for. They could have just bought the kid a gun.

C) If the parents don't want the kid to have a gun, they can take it away. It is their home... They own it. They control what goes on inside of it. So... If the parents won't allow it, the kid also needs to buy his own house.

D) 2A
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:29:04 PM EST
No… And here’s why.

You do not own yourself at 16, your parents do. You can’t buy property and you can’t buy a car without your parent’s permission. You have to eat what they tell you, sleep where they tell you, and you have a duty to do what they say.

When you turn 18 you assume the sovereignty your parents are now holding for you. (In most states) At that point you can basically do what you want, if you are willing to accept the consequences.

Now, I don’t have a problem with parents buying their children firearms. I don’t have a problem with the children having total possession of the firearms once they are bought. That decision rightfully belongs to the parents and not to the government.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:29:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
This is just sad...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Unless you aren't 18."



Do you think 6 year-olds should be allowed to buy guns?



Dude, just wait it out. It's called delayed gratification. Things are so much better when you wait for them or have to work towards them. Spend the 2 years saving up your money and when you're 18 you'll be able to buy yourself a nice first gun.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:30:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Thuban:
No… And here’s why.

You do not own yourself at 16, your parents do. You can’t buy property and you can’t buy a car without your parent’s permission. You have to eat what they tell you, sleep where they tell you, and you have a duty to do what they say.

When you turn 18 you assume the sovereignty your parents are now holding for you. (In most states) At that point you can basically do what you want, if you are willing to accept the consequences.

Now, I don’t have a problem with parents buying their children firearms. I don’t have a problem with the children having total possession of the firearms once they are bought. That decision rightfully belongs to the parents and not to the government.

I can buy a hammer... And if my parents decide it is not something I am capable of owning, they can take it away from me.

What happened to the "The gun is just a tool" argument we hear so much?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:32:30 PM EST
There are some of my friends that are 18 that I don't trust with guns, I wouldn't trust most 16 year olds with guns especially some of the dumbasses from when i was in highschool.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:32:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:33:39 PM EST by lamarbrog]

Originally Posted By Assault-Rifle-City:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
This is just sad...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Unless you aren't 18."



Do you think 6 year-olds should be allowed to buy guns?



Dude, just wait it out. It's called delayed gratification. Things are so much better when you wait for them or have to work towards them. Spend the 2 years saving up your money and when you're 18 you'll be able to buy yourself a nice first gun.

I don't need to save up and buy a gun when I'm 18... There is no delayed gratification.

I can currently use any gun I would want to buy if I were 18.

I am not deprived of anything physically... Just the right to do it.


This isn't about a gun. It is about rights.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:32:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By teveler:
However when you are eighteen and you can legal age to die for your country...


Game on.


this. and since you could serve in the armed forces you should also be able to have a beer too
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:35:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
This is just sad...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Unless you aren't 18."



Oh please, even the founding fathers defined the militia as those over the age of 18.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:36:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
State by State.... Federal law does not prohibit you form owning, posessing or discharging long guns....... except from a FFL...
Vermont allows you to purchase a long gun from a private party at age 16. 16 is old enough to purchase possess and discharge firearms in my book.


This, there are many states where you can legally own firearms, even handguns IIRC. What you can't do is buy them from a FFL. Face to face sales, gifting from parents/grandparents are two examples of how to get them.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:36:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:42:19 PM EST by lamarbrog]

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
This is just sad...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Unless you aren't 18."



Oh please, even the founding fathers defined the militia as those over the age of 18.

So... Anyone over the age of 45 that didn't serve in the military can't buy a gun?

Anyone over 60 can't buy a gun, period?

Women have no right to bear arms?

We are going off the definition of militia, right?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:36:58 PM EST
If you can join the military at sixteen then you should be able to buy alcohol and firearms also.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:37:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
if you are 16, you have no rights.

sorry that's how it is.

you have god given/naturally born rights, like to defend your life, but in terms of constitutional rights, you don't really have any until you're allowed to die for the country at the age of 18.

Drinking and smoking laws should be set at that age too.

You get to decide, though...

This isn't about what the government currently decides is Constitutional, etc.


Forget the Constitution for this... Forget about someone else being accountable. If I do harm to another person, I accept full responsibility... That can be part of buying the gun, I sign off that I take full responsibility for any harm done as a result of my ownership of it.

From a pure what is right standpoint... Can I?


I just barely edited my post to include a little bit at the end of it:
"at 18 you're old enough to know everything you need to know to live on your own (keep in mind this is MOST people, I'm sure you'd be fine at 16), reasonably think through if you'd be willing to die for your country and know when and how to reasonably use force."

given how our current society works, I would say that doesn't work, we have parents responsible their children until they turn 18, there's a mindset in a lot of teenagers and younger that doesn't have a fully matured sense of the world until they are older.

if our society was more mature and had we had more young people learning things like hunter and defensive gun safety in classes, which goes in detail about proper application of firearms in self defense, then I would be for it. However, I do not believe that most people under the age 18 have a proper sense of how or when to use deadly force.

Ideally the parent raises a child to these kind of standards and we wouldn't need age restrictions.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:38:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 1:38:28 PM EST by lamarbrog]

Originally Posted By Dunragit:
If you can join the military at sixteen then you should be able to buy alcohol and firearms also.

OK... drop the age... I'm just sitting around killing time so I can join the National Guard in about 6 months anyway...
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:39:45 PM EST
Oh, and I attended a concealed carry class, same as anyone else would... I just didn't get a permit when it was over.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:39:59 PM EST
18 years old = g2g for anything in my opinion. I'm tired of this distinction bullshit. It's either all or nothing at 18 or 21. I'm a member of the 18 camp. Should be 18 to buy handguns, long guns, beer, whiskey, and serve your country.
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