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Posted: 12/9/2016 10:07:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/9/2016 10:09:47 PM EST by Use_the_2nd]
Ok so I've had in my possession a Remington model 11 for a few years now that was originally purchased by my great grandmother. This gun is a piece of history it's been hunting with Earnest Hemingway who would go out with my great grandfather.

Anyway, it's not a safe queen. I use it just as my dad, grandfather and great grand father did. Unfortunately I've noticed 2 cracks on the receiver.





As you can see they aren't too bad but I want to stop it while I can. I have a buddy who can TIG weld( like actually fucking TIG weld, go outside and find the red star that is mars, locate the rockets that were on the lander for the rover. BAM, you're looking at his welds) he's able to weld it but is wondering what type of steel was used and its porosity. Anyone have any insight on this? I have the serial number if that will help figuring out what steel was used.

Also, what's the best way to remove some light rusting and refinish it all?

Help me GD. I'd like to be able to pass this gun down to my son
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 10:18:22 PM EST
Bump
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 10:21:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/9/2016 10:26:38 PM EST by pilotman]
There are people here with more knowledge than I have, but I'd say that after repairing, heat treating/stress relieving will be essential to keep the same thing from happening.


What kind of finish did it originally have? It appears to have been blued, yes?

You can re-do bluing at home if you wish. Someone just posted a thread about it here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1942150_Repost---How-to-boil-your-1911--a-home-hot-blue-tutorial.html

There are guys out there that specialize in matching factory bluing (for instance, S&W) but I'm not sure if you'd find someone that could necessarily match something like you have. If it were me, I'd probably repair, sand (or abrasive blast) and home hot blue. One more consideration - if you have it welded, it's likely that the repair will show through the new bluing (the filler will likely react to the solution differently than the rest of the metal.)
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 10:24:23 PM EST
You should call Doug Turnbull.

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 10:33:08 PM EST
Once you get the receiver fixed buy a new action spring, recoil spring, friction piece, friction spring and friction ring. Make sure you know the order they need to setup depending on ammo type.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 11:43:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By HarryStone:
You should call Doug Turnbull.

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/
View Quote


Is he a member? Make my life way easier and give me a reason to use the @ function
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 11:57:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 12:04:17 AM EST by Wespe]
Your buddy work for Aerojet?
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:01:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:06:19 AM EST
Find a barrel or some receiver part of same vintage and have him use it to weld with. That is what they did with a Luger custom job I had done years ago. Then get Thor340 (on this board) redo the rust blue. Take a look at his work in the Luger section of this site. He can also advise you on the welding I think?
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:07:26 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Wespe:
Your buddy work for Aerojet?
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:08:37 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
I wouldn't touch the gun if the Hemingway connection has solid documentation, and probably wouldn't anyway.

The receiver is some sort of low carbon steel. No telling what alloy, and I don't know if you could find a lab that could narrow it down without trading an arm or leg.
View Quote


No solid connection, only a few pictures with Hemingway and my great grandfather, unfortunately the gun isn't in it
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:08:51 AM EST
Call Remington, they might be helpful as far as what it is constructed of.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:09:34 AM EST
Its a wallhanger now, Model 11s can be had in good shape for 300-400 if you really want to shoot one.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:09:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By P08:
Find a barrel or some receiver part of same vintage and have him use it to weld with. That is what they did with a Luger custom job I had done years ago. Then get Thor340 (on this board) redo the rust blue. Take a look at his work in the Luger section of this site. He can also advise you on the welding I think?
View Quote


Thanks for the recommendation

@thor340 , care to comment?
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:11:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 12:19:04 AM EST by Use_the_2nd]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mad_mardigan:
Its a wallhanger now, Model 11s can be had in good shape for 300-400 if you really want to shoot one.
View Quote




Sounds like someone doesn't want to win.

Shoots fine now, I want to be able to provide my son with the same gun that gave me awesome memories



Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:13:18 AM EST
I'd try autogenous TIG on it first but if it didn't work tell him to use some ER70s-2 and get full penetration. Sand/buff smooth post weld.

If you blue it post repair, it will look dark red in the welded area.

Cake.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:15:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:15:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 12:21:05 AM EST by Tim_McBride]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mad_mardigan:
Its a wallhanger now, Model 11s can be had in good shape for 300-400 if you really want to shoot one.
View Quote

It's repairable. If he has a friend willing to do the labor it will even be a reasonable price. The OP does need to make sure he replaces the springs and friction pieces however.

Edit: after seeing your other post I now know where you were coming frome
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:17:18 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:




Sounds like someone doesn't want to win.
View Quote


Ive wasted lots of time and money on project guns, they never turn out how you want. I actually have a Model 11 thats been in my family over 100 years, only shot it once since I have a nice Auto 5 too. Im guessing yours was setup for low brass and was then fed a steady diet of high brass stuff for like 50 years, these guns are built like tanks....im surprised to see that receiver cracked.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:18:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:


Thanks for the recommendation

@thor340 , care to comment?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:
Originally Posted By P08:
Find a barrel or some receiver part of same vintage and have him use it to weld with. That is what they did with a Luger custom job I had done years ago. Then get Thor340 (on this board) redo the rust blue. Take a look at his work in the Luger section of this site. He can also advise you on the welding I think?


Thanks for the recommendation

@thor340 , care to comment?


If you go this route let me know. I have quite a few A5/Rem 11 parts guns. I can see if one is the right vintage and cut you off a chunk.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:21:07 AM EST
I saw some place selling model 11 receivers within the last couple years. Probably a place in SGN. They were pretty cheap and that might be the better option.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:22:40 AM EST
As far as the refinish goes, you can rust blue instead of hot bluing it. You'll still need a long tank for the barrel, but you're only boiling water in it, not a corrosive chemical. I'd recommend practicing on a couple things first like knives, or maybe a pistol, to get the feel of it. As long as you're careful with your prep you can get really nice results pretty easily. Don't use any machine tools if you go that route.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:23:48 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mad_mardigan:


Ive wasted lots of time and money on project guns, they never turn out how you want. I actually have a Model 11 thats been in my family over 100 years, only shot it once since I have a nice Auto 5 too. Im guessing yours was setup for low brass and was then fed a steady diet of high brass stuff for like 50 years, these guns are built like tanks....im surprised to see that receiver cracked.
View Quote



Im not.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:27:58 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Cucumbermonkey:



Im not.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Cucumbermonkey:
Originally Posted By mad_mardigan:


Ive wasted lots of time and money on project guns, they never turn out how you want. I actually have a Model 11 thats been in my family over 100 years, only shot it once since I have a nice Auto 5 too. Im guessing yours was setup for low brass and was then fed a steady diet of high brass stuff for like 50 years, these guns are built like tanks....im surprised to see that receiver cracked.



Im not.

Yep. Either setup for light loads or pieces just left out and fed a steady diet of high brass. No offense to the OP but I see the recoil system setup wrong on so many A5s and the subsequent damage caused.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:28:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 12:31:19 AM EST by Use_the_2nd]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mad_mardigan:


Ive wasted lots of time and money on project guns, they never turn out how you want. I actually have a Model 11 thats been in my family over 100 years, only shot it once since I have a nice Auto 5 too. Im guessing yours was setup for low brass and was then fed a steady diet of high brass stuff for like 50 years, these guns are built like tanks....im surprised to see that receiver cracked.
View Quote


I've always had it set up for heavy loads, so has my dad. These cracks popped up within the last year or so, over 100years will do that.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:33:12 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:

Yep. Either setup for light loads or pieces just left out and fed a steady diet of high brass. No offense to the OP but I see the recoil system setup wrong on so many A5s and the subsequent damage caused.
View Quote


Care to elaborate? Im fairly certain it's been setup correctly according to the google machine/family , but I'm always open to new info
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:33:53 AM EST

sorry OP i got nothing useful but that is really cool.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:36:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:


I've always had it set up for heavy loads, so has my dad. These cracks popped up within the last year or so, over 100years will do that.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:
Originally Posted By mad_mardigan:


Ive wasted lots of time and money on project guns, they never turn out how you want. I actually have a Model 11 thats been in my family over 100 years, only shot it once since I have a nice Auto 5 too. Im guessing yours was setup for low brass and was then fed a steady diet of high brass stuff for like 50 years, these guns are built like tanks....im surprised to see that receiver cracked.


I've always had it set up for heavy loads, so has my dad. These cracks popped up within the last year or so, over 100years will do that.




That sounds about right. I had some barrel work done on mine and it's been awhile but I think I remember the gunsmith sort of telling me to avoid a huge diet of heavy loads even with the recoil system setup properly. Pretty sure I remember him saying they're known to shoot themselves apart. Anyway it doesn't matter because I hate shooting mine and doubt I'll ever shoot it apart. Ive probably shot 30 rounds through it in the last 5 years
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:40:07 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SD307:

sorry OP i got nothing useful but that is really cool.
View Quote


Thanks, here's another picture of it in action on one of my first pheasant trips.

I should really get the full size picture from my uncle

Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:45:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 12:47:27 AM EST by B44T]
It only collector value if you sell it for cash. Who cares about that ?

With the kind of family history it is a priceless heirloom. If I were custodian I would have no problem paying a couple grand getting it ready for another three generations of use.

Have you thought about getting it dry cryo stress relieved after the receiver is repaired ?
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:46:04 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:


Care to elaborate? Im fairly certain it's been setup correctly according to the google machine/family , but I'm always open to new info
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:

Yep. Either setup for light loads or pieces just left out and fed a steady diet of high brass. No offense to the OP but I see the recoil system setup wrong on so many A5s and the subsequent damage caused.


Care to elaborate? Im fairly certain it's been setup correctly according to the google machine/family , but I'm always open to new info


Google Machine is usually right.

If it was setup right(and it's possible for this damage to also happen with just heavy use) has the friction piece, friction spring, recoil spring or action spring ever been replaced. Those are all wear parts that are currently produced and need replacement.

Please don't take offense from my comments, it is just that usually it's the recoil pieces wrong or missing.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:49:49 AM EST
Stress cracks generally stop after a while. Check out the later models. The factory may have drilled out that area to prevent the cracking. If so, then don't worry about it. BTW, I'd tig weld it and refinish it.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:50:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:55:13 AM EST


Does this part (and the spring that goes over it) fit loose or is it tough to install / move?
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 1:19:39 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:


Google Machine is usually right.

If it was setup right(and it's possible for this damage to also happen with just heavy use) has the friction piece, friction spring, recoil spring or action spring ever been replaced. Those are all wear parts that are currently produced and need replacement.

Please don't take offense from my comments, it is just that usually it's the recoil pieces wrong or missing.
View Quote


None taken, I'm always open to learning
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 1:20:19 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/40084/1408650-104113.jpg

Does this part (and the spring that goes over it) fit loose or is it tough to install / move?
View Quote


Spring is tight, the collar itself is slightly loose.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 1:39:34 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:


Spring is tight, the collar itself is slightly loose.
View Quote

The brass friction piece should be snug.

Replace the friction piece, friction ring, friction spring, recoil spring and action spring.
I wouldn't be shocked if you pull the buttstock and remove the action spring to find it broke or compressed.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 4:23:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:

The brass friction piece should be snug.

Replace the friction piece, friction ring, friction spring, recoil spring and action spring.
I wouldn't be shocked if you pull the buttstock and remove the action spring to find it broke or compressed.
View Quote


Receiver is now stripped, all parts seem to be in good working order. I'll be bringing the pieces into work on Monday for a good thourough cleaning in out solvent tank
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 4:39:52 PM EST
There is a fiber cushion and rivet in the back of the hump, (if its even still present) replace that too.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 7:30:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:


Receiver is now stripped, all parts seem to be in good working order. I'll be bringing the pieces into work on Monday for a good thourough cleaning in out solvent tank
View Quote


What is the free length of the action spring (The one in the tube of the buttstock) and the recoil spring (The one around the tube)?
The action spring should have 13.25" of free length.
The recoil spring should have 9.25" of free length for a standard and 10.50" for a magnum gun.

Link Posted: 12/10/2016 8:55:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 9:04:52 PM EST by out4trout]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:
Once you get the receiver fixed buy a new action spring, recoil spring, friction piece, friction spring and friction ring. Make sure you know the order they need to setup depending on ammo type.
View Quote
t

I don't know much about TIG welding but I do know from sad experience that faulty friction ring and recoil and action springs cause just the kind of damage I saw in your photos. Get new springs and friction rings from Brownell's and also get a Browning Auto 5 screwdriver bit package to keep from buggering up the screw-heads. I have a 1927 Auto 5 that has been properly cared for and it still shoots great. It was my Grandfather's and passed down through the family. Even if it can't be fixed it would make a great memory piece hanging on your wall.
Link Posted: 12/11/2016 4:57:49 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:


What is the free length of the action spring (The one in the tube of the buttstock) and the recoil spring (The one around the tube)?
The action spring should have 13.25" of free length.
The recoil spring should have 9.25" of free length for a standard and 10.50" for a magnum gun.
View Quote


I'll get some measurements later today. It'll be nice to get this thing back in service.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 12:03:22 PM EST
Parts are in the solvent tank

Link Posted: 12/12/2016 12:08:05 PM EST
I am serious about the fiber buffer and rivet, if you do not do them, you will blow out the back of the hump with continuous shooting, especially if the buffer is gone but the rivet remains.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 12:57:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I am serious about the fiber buffer and rivet, if you do not do them, you will blow out the back of the hump with continuous shooting, especially if the buffer is gone but the rivet remains.
View Quote


Do you have a picture of the parts you are referring to?
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 1:32:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 2:08:06 PM EST
I'm a fan of the way rust bluing looks, especially on a classic like that.

Good write-up here on doing it.


Rust bluing

Link Posted: 12/12/2016 2:11:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2016 2:12:47 PM EST by Cucumbermonkey]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:

The brass friction piece should be snug.

Replace the friction piece, friction ring, friction spring, recoil spring and action spring.
I wouldn't be shocked if you pull the buttstock and remove the action spring to find it broke or compressed.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tim_McBride:
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:


Spring is tight, the collar itself is slightly loose.

The brass friction piece should be snug.

Replace the friction piece, friction ring, friction spring, recoil spring and action spring.
I wouldn't be shocked if you pull the buttstock and remove the action spring to find it broke or compressed.

eta

And check the recoil buffer in it. I think they made them out of felt or something. Ive heard of people replacing them with more modern materials. eta beat.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 2:13:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History



What's the back of the bolt and bolt handle look like?
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 2:14:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Well I think I found the source of this problem. That piece is non-existent on this gun. How it that retained?
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 2:16:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Use_the_2nd:


Well I think I found the source of this problem. That piece is non-existent on this gun. How it that retained?
View Quote



It's riveted in place. Ive never changed mine, but I have a spare buffer and rivet. I bought it from Numerich.
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