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Posted: 8/23/2011 4:22:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:44:28 AM EDT
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:48:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


Should that be codified into law? "If you go on the lam, and make it for X years without being caught, you're free and clear"?

Let this guy go, and someone else will figure they only need to go ten years, Then two. Then a month. Pretty soon, it'll be "If the cops don't chase you after a mile, you're home free."


Asher was sentenced to seven years to life in prison for robbing a San Francisco bar during which a bartender was shot and beaten to death in 1966. Asher was 20 at the time.


No, he needs to go to prison. A violent felony? Why should he stroll away from that scot-free? Part of the system is to provide a deterrent to the behavior of others... what message do we send if we tell people, "You can go ahead and commit violent robberies, and if you stay on the run long enough we'll let you be"?
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:50:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


Didn't he rob a bar and shoot/beat someone to death? You take a life your should be ruined also.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:51:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


I tend to agree, after 36 years you kinda have lost the whole immediacy of punishment. Then again, it also serves as a nice warning that a life as a fugitive is one of always being worried about that day. I also see that he didn't serve the time and the state has the right to see to it that he does and that warning might outweigh the silly side of putting the old man back in jail.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:52:09 AM EDT
Dude was doing Geico commercials this whole time the FBI is fucking blind.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:53:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


Didn't he rob a bar and shoot/beat someone to death? You take a life your should be ruined also.


Yeah, if I were the bartenders family I wouldn't be so tender on the idea of letting him walk either.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:54:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By stealbear:
Dude was doing Geico commercials this whole time the FBI is fucking blind.


Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:54:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:54:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


Didn't he rob a bar and shoot/beat someone to death? You take a life your should be ruined also.


This. Public Hanging.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:54:45 AM EDT
I bet the dead man's family is happy he's back where he belongs.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:56:55 AM EDT
He is a criminal. Lock his ass up or set him free and send a message that it's ok to break the law, if you escape and evade long enough all will be forgiven.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 4:57:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?

I wonder what the dead bartender would think about that.

Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:01:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


Yeah, that would be great incentive for all the other violent criminals in prison who would like to escape!
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:07:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:07:39 AM EDT
Glad they caught him. Do the crime...

Lots of guys turn their lives around in prison....but are not released early.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:16:00 AM EDT
Good. Put his ass back in prison and let him rot. Some poor guy had his existence taken from him in '66 for the "Crime"
of being at work that day when this douche decided to rob the bar he (the victim) was working at.

Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:23:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


He didn't turn his life around. If he'd turned his life around, he would have understood the enormity of the crime he committed and turned himself in (or killed himself, the shit-fucker). He didn't, he wanted to keep on tippy-toeing through the roses and living the comparatively good life while being a FUCKING MURDERER.

He should be pushed up against a wall and shot in the face.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:24:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Grunteled:
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


I tend to agree, after 36 years you kinda have lost the whole immediacy of punishment. Then again, it also serves as a nice warning that a life as a fugitive is one of always being worried about that day. I also see that he didn't serve the time and the state has the right to see to it that he does and that warning might outweigh the silly side of putting the old man back in jail.


He owes a debt. Prison is not about rehabilitation.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:24:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?

if nothing more as a deterrent.

IF other prisoners figured out if they could escape and not get caught and live a good life and not be sent back, what would that create?

Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:25:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?




Asher was sentenced to seven years to life in prison for robbing a San Francisco bar during which a bartender was shot and beaten to death in 1966. Asher was 20 at the time.

He was denied parole twice before escaping in January 1975 from Growlersburg Conservation Camp, an inmate fire camp in El Dorado County.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:27:58 AM EDT
The community is best served by this old man being back in jail. His health care costs will be more expensive now, and California is swimming in money.

The guy must be returned to prison for a period as punishment for escaping. However, since California is looking to release prisoners, this guy would be near the top of the list for me.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:30:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR-180:
The community is best served by this old man being back in jail. His health care costs will be more expensive now, and California is swimming in money.

The guy must be returned to prison for a period as punishment for escaping. However, since California is looking to release prisoners, this guy would be near the top of the list for me.


You would feel different if it was your father that this man killed while robbing him. You would have grown up without your dad while this guy evaded paying his price to society.

Excusing violent murderers is not cool. Does not matter how old they are.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:32:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?

Murder
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:38:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balista:
Originally Posted By AR-180:
The community is best served by this old man being back in jail. His health care costs will be more expensive now, and California is swimming in money.

The guy must be returned to prison for a period as punishment for escaping. However, since California is looking to release prisoners, this guy would be near the top of the list for me.


You would feel different if it was your father that this man killed while robbing him. You would have grown up without your dad while this guy evaded paying his price to society.

Excusing violent murderers is not cool. Does not matter how old they are.


Thanks for thinking things through for me. I am glad you know how I feel better than I do. I hope it is people like you that get to figure out the prison overcrowding problem that most states have.

Prisons are very expensive. The costs grow with the age of the incarcerated. Even Al Capone was released once he got sick from Syphilis. If the guy killed anyone while he was out on the lam, I retract my statement that he would be near the top of my list of people to release.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 5:57:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2011 5:58:56 AM EDT by Balista]
Originally Posted By AR-180:

Thanks for thinking things through for me. I am glad you know how I feel better than I do. I hope it is people like you that get to figure out the prison overcrowding problem that most states have.

Prisons are very expensive. The costs grow with the age of the incarcerated. Even Al Capone was released once he got sick from Syphilis. If the guy killed anyone while he was out on the lam, I retract my statement that he would be near the top of my list of people to release.


Prisons are overcrowded in California with drug cases not violent felon murders. Kick loose some pot possession cases to make room for this dirtbag if that makes you feel better.

You are using a concept called 'moral equivalency'. Money is more important than murder victims.

Imprisonment of murderers ranks higher than other low level criminals. The reason society places a premium on capturing murderers and making them serve their sentence is that the crime is the worst one possible.

Link Posted: 8/23/2011 6:41:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2011 6:52:23 AM EDT by lostnswv]
Must be a slow couple of decades in California LE when this is the hottest fugitive hunt that was still not completed.

California Department of Justice Most Wanted List
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 6:45:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balista:
Originally Posted By AR-180:

Thanks for thinking things through for me. I am glad you know how I feel better than I do. I hope it is people like you that get to figure out the prison overcrowding problem that most states have.

Prisons are very expensive. The costs grow with the age of the incarcerated. Even Al Capone was released once he got sick from Syphilis. If the guy killed anyone while he was out on the lam, I retract my statement that he would be near the top of my list of people to release.


Prisons are overcrowded in California with drug cases not violent felon murders. Kick loose some pot possession cases to make room for this dirtbag if that makes you feel better.

You are using a concept called 'moral equivalency'. Money is more important than murder victims.

Imprisonment of murderers ranks higher than other low level criminals. The reason society places a premium on capturing murderers and making them serve their sentence is that the crime is the worst one possible.



I am in complete agreement that threats to society should be off the street. I would start by getting rid of people in prison for drug possession. But, people that could live outside non-violently, they would be on my list too. People are most prone to crime in their early years. The guy that this thread is about, lived outside prison walls and kept out of trouble. So, he would be on my list as well.

Prison space is a finite resource. That does come down to money. I want to minimize violent crime outside prison by keeping violent people inside prison. If a person can live violence free for over three decades, he would be on my list of people to return to society. The vast majority of people in prison will be returned to society.

The reason society places a premium on capturing murderers is the likelihood of recidivism and the consequences of such. I worked as a Statistician and advisor in this field. I have had lunch with murderers who are freed from prison and no threat to society. The best way to run a system that promotes public safety is knowing whom to keep behind bars and whom to release.

Please continue lecturing me. I am intrigued by your thoughts.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 6:50:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR-180:
I want to minimize violent crime outside prison by keeping violent people inside prison. If a person can live violence free for over three decades, he would be on my list of people to return to society. The vast majority of people in prison will be returned to society.


How did you determine he lived violence free for three decades?

Link Posted: 8/23/2011 6:53:04 AM EDT
Winner!

Maybe he set it up so he could get caught and get free room, board, and medical benefits.

Probably put in a low security prison farm.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:00:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bill247:
Originally Posted By AR-180:
I want to minimize violent crime outside prison by keeping violent people inside prison. If a person can live violence free for over three decades, he would be on my list of people to return to society. The vast majority of people in prison will be returned to society.


How did you determine he lived violence free for three decades?


The same way you determined if anyone is violent, check their criminal record.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:06:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


What message do you send to the current inmates in the prison system if you don't incarcerate him?
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:06:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balista:
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


http://a57.foxnews.com/imag-sf/imag/Rich%20Media%20Images/Travel/396/223/082211_asherbeforeafter.jpg

Asher was sentenced to seven years to life in prison for robbing a San Francisco bar during which a bartender was shot and beaten to death in 1966. Asher was 20 at the time.

He was denied parole twice before escaping in January 1975 from Growlersburg Conservation Camp, an inmate fire camp in El Dorado County.


Why in the blue fuck was a convicted murder on a fire crew?
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:08:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2011 7:13:41 AM EDT by Balista]
Originally Posted By AR-180:

The guy that this thread is about, lived outside prison walls and kept out of trouble. .


Not true.

He is guilty of identity theft, tax evasion, lying to his wife and children about who he was, and the his girlfriend of the last 10 years had no idea who he was.

Hey, if you want to give murders who escape justice a free pass, that's on you.

When federal agents finally tracked down William Walter Asher III in Salida last week, the 66-year-old was going by an assumed name, retired after years working for trucking companies, and living with a woman who apparently had no idea he'd been running from the law for 36 years.


Agents learned that a man named Garry Webb was associated with the residence. On Thursday, said FBI Special Agent Daniel Rodriguez, they compared Webb's driver's license photo with an old photo of Asher.


Then when the FBI questioned him, he still continued to lie about his identity. No remorse.

At first, Rodriguez said, Asher denied their claims, presenting documents identifying himself as Webb. But when agents told him they would take him in for fingerprints anyway, Rodriguez said, Asher admitted his identity.


Real pillar of the community.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:08:54 AM EDT
He may very well have turned his life around. Good for him. But, he still owes a debt. Retire him to the graybar.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:10:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
Originally Posted By Balista:
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
He evidently turned his life around. What would it serve to incarcerate an old man?


http://a57.foxnews.com/imag-sf/imag/Rich%20Media%20Images/Travel/396/223/082211_asherbeforeafter.jpg

Asher was sentenced to seven years to life in prison for robbing a San Francisco bar during which a bartender was shot and beaten to death in 1966. Asher was 20 at the time.

He was denied parole twice before escaping in January 1975 from Growlersburg Conservation Camp, an inmate fire camp in El Dorado County.


Why in the blue fuck was a convicted murder on a fire crew?


I was about to ask that, who had the brilliant idea of giving murderers cutting and chopping tools then letting them run around outside?
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:11:12 AM EDT
A guy was killed and this dude couldn't serve 7 years without feeling the need to bail? He got off light to start with IMO and still didn't do the time. I'm just amazed there were still feelers out for him.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:12:30 AM EDT
ok, a question. did he get a commercial driver license? if he's driving trucks, he'd need one. seems to me those guys have to give up fingerprints for that, don't they? guess not. i just find it weird that a guy can change identity twice like that and skate all those years. wonder how many interactions he had with LE during those 36 years.

-tom
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:15:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2011 7:16:14 AM EDT by Cowboy1967]
Originally Posted By tommygs:
ok, a question. did he get a commercial driver license? if he's driving trucks, he'd need one. seems to me those guys have to give up fingerprints for that, don't they? guess not. i just find it weird that a guy can change identity twice like that and skate all those years. wonder how many interactions he had with LE during those 36 years.

-tom


If he was driving truck he had tons of LE interaction..
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:16:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bill247:
Originally Posted By AR-180:
I want to minimize violent crime outside prison by keeping violent people inside prison. If a person can live violence free for over three decades, he would be on my list of people to return to society. The vast majority of people in prison will be returned to society.


How did you determine he lived violence free for three decades?



He would have been returned to prison if his finger prints matched up, correct?

So, I am assuming that he never was processed into the system anywhere.

I am all for putting guys away for life if warranted, but for a long time CA didn't have that type of system. The Manson family comes up for parole every few years. If those guys could potentially be released, this guy could as well.

In NC, under the fair sentencing act, people didn't go away for life. As the system filled up, people started to do about a month for every year they got over a certain number. Under the structured sentencing act, life means life.

The prison system is not a fun job. There are lots of criminals and very little money. If you don't behave by some very arbitrary rules, the system gets the state into even more financial trouble. There are no easy answers. I am sure each state would love to hear any good ideas the people here can come up with.

Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:20:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tommygs:
ok, a question. did he get a commercial driver license? if he's driving trucks, he'd need one. seems to me those guys have to give up fingerprints for that, don't they? guess not. i just find it weird that a guy can change identity twice like that and skate all those years. wonder how many interactions he had with LE during those 36 years.

-tom


He lived and worked in Canada after the escape.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:21:02 AM EDT
At almost the stroke of midnight the defendants opened their coats and withdrew weapons. Williams had a sawed-off shotgun which a patron recognized as a 12-gauge single barrel weapon. Asher and Carrafa had pistols. Williams said, "This is a holdup. Don't make a move, and don't anybody do anything wrong.put your hands on top of the bar." Williams walked up to Kammeyer saying, "I'll show you who to call a punk." He put the shotgun in Kammeyer's back, pressed the trigger and the weapon discharged. Kammeyer fell, mortally wounded.

The bartender heard Williams threaten to do the same to anyone who interfered "because you only die once." Then, apparently to the dying Kammeyer, Williams said, "You didn't know who you were fooling with, Baby."

The owner moved to help Kammeyer but Williams told her to get back. A voice said, "What did you do that for?" Two patrons thought they heard the owner and the bartender say these words. The bartender thought they came from Carrafa. Williams replied, "I'm going to pay for this." The defendants each cautioned the patrons, "Everybody keep still. Nobody else will get shot."

The bartender and the owner heard the announced holdup before Williams shot Kammeyer. Other patrons who testified were apparently unaware of what was happening until their thoughts or conversations were interrupted by the blast of the shotgun.

Kammeyer was moaning, "I'm dying; I'm dying; I've been shot." Williams demanded money from the bartender who complied by giving him bills and checks worth about $418. Williams then directed either Asher or Carrafa to [273 Cal. App. 2d 885] empty the cash register of the change. Williams reloaded the shotgun and took a position guarding the entrance door. The bartender asked him if he wanted the front door closed and Williams replied, "No; leave the door open. We want the business operating as normal."

Carrafa, gun in hand, emptied the cash register. Carrafa or Asher then said, "Let's get that safe open." Williams told the bartender that he picked "The New Hearth" for the robbery because they had been there on Friday night and had seen the receipts, which they thought by Sunday would total some $1,200-$1,500.

Asher, armed with a pistol, pulled the owner back toward the office where the safe was located. She did not have a key to the office door and Asher broke down the door. Asher said that they expected to find $2,000 in the safe. The owner explained that she did not know how to open the safe. She tried to open it while Asher and Carrafa moved in and out of the office. Both also worked on the safe.

About five minutes later, Asher and Carrafa came out and dragged the bleeding and moaning Kammeyer into the office. As they did so they abused him. Asher kicked him in the ribs; Carrafa kicked him in the stomach. Inside the office Kammeyer, barely conscious, tried to give them the combination. He was kicked and shoved. The bartender went in and offered to help. Kammeyer gave numbers but the bartender could not get the safe open. The owner pleaded that Kammeyer was bleeding to death. Asher replied, "I know. That punk is trigger-happy. He's going to be sorry he did this." Picking up some rubber gloves, he wiped off the safe and the combination dial.

During and after the attempt to open the safe the patrons in the bar were systematically robbed. Williams continued to guard the door and had also armed himself with a "cutting knife." The bartender told Williams that the police often came in and Williams replied, "From where I am standing I will blow a hole in their back[s]. They won't have half a chance. I hope they do come in." A patron heard him express the same hope, adding, "I would just like to smoke me one of them." The same patron fearing that Williams would shoot the first person to enter, exclaimed that a friend was due to arrive. Asher, pointing a gun at the patron's head, came up and hit him over the head, knocking him off the bar stool.

At about 12:15 a lady called the bartender and Williams answered the telephone. Williams told her that the bartender [273 Cal. App. 2d 886] had gone out for a sandwich. About 15 minutes later she entered the bar only to be grabbed by Williams. The bartender yelled, "That is my wife." Asher, coming out of the rear office, told Williams to leave her alone.

A patron stepped in at about 12:30 a.m. and he also was jumped by Williams. He was told to put his wallet on the bar "or you're dead." Asher, holding a gun, came up and kicked him in the groin. A second customer who came in at 12:45 a.m. to keep his appointment with a patron, received similar treatment.

Williams ordered the bartender to mix drinks for the customers which was done. Later Carrafa told the bartender to wash all the glasses. Then the bartender was directed to break all the glasses which he and the defendants proceeded to do. The defendants, of course, had been handling glasses during the evening. The telephones were ripped out of the bar and the back office.

The defendants left about 1 a.m. Williams warned the victims not to call for help, "We'll have a man with a 30-30 Savage waiting across the street covering the door."
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:22:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:22:38 AM EDT
Even if Asher and Carrafa (although armed themselves) did not intend that life should be taken in the perpetration of the robbery, or forbade Williams to kill, or regretted his acts, they cannot relieve themselves of responsibility for the homicide committed by their associate in furtherance of the common purpose to rob. (People v. Lawrence (1904) 143 Cal. 148, 157 [76 P. 893, 68 L.R.A. 193].)
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:22:45 AM EDT
I wonder what his original sentence was?
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:24:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stealbear:
Dude was doing Geico commercials this whole time the FBI is fucking blind.

LOL
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:30:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:33:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:
I wonder what his original sentence was?


The minutes of the sentencing (see Pen. Code, § 1207) reflect the following: "Each defendant having been convicted of the crime of felony, to-wit: violation of section 187 of the California Penal Code, Murder, in the first degree, with 1 prior conviction as to Asher, 2 prior convictions as to Carrafa


He was tried, convicted and sentenced to life in prison.


Yeah, multiple felonies, but let the old man go despite escaping from prison.

Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:35:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:42:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balista:
Yeah, multiple felonies, but let the old man go despite escaping from prison.



Send him back, but he will be at the top of the list of people to be released. Nothing posted so far would change that.

He could have been released 29 years ago even as a murderer.
Link Posted: 8/23/2011 7:42:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
Originally Posted By Subnet:
I wonder what his original sentence was?


7 to life.

Could have been out by now, if he kept his nose clean. It wouldn't have been guaranteed of course, but he's definitely fucked now.

Well, at least he had 36 years of freedom, I guess (well, as "free" as you can be as a fugitive, I suppose). He's been free longer than I've been alive, so...I don't feel too bad about putting his ass back in prison for the remainder of his life. He's lucky he got to enjoy freedom during his prime years. If he's an optimist, this would be one way of reflecting on his life while he sits in jail.

Pay now, or pay later...but you're going to pay.
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