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Posted: 7/16/2005 4:15:19 AM EDT
Little California Girl Faces Felony Charge for Throwing Rock at Little Boy

JULIANA BARBASSA
Associated Press Writer


FRESNO, Calif. (AP) -- Police apparently came prepared for gang warfare when they sent three squad cars and a helicopter in response to a 911 call. Instead, they found an 11-year-old girl who had thrown a rock to defend herself as neighborhood boys pelted her with water balloons.

Little Maribel Cuevas says she didn't mean to hurt the boy _ who admitted to officers that he started the fight and was quickly released from the hospital after getting his head stitched up.

But police insist she's a criminal _ she's being prosecuted on a felony charge of assault with a deadly weapon. ''We responded. We determined a felony assault had taken place and the officers took the actions that were necessary,''
said Fresno Police Sgt. Anthony Martinez.

Her family says Maribel was simply defending herself when 9-year-old Elijah Vang and several other boys pummeled her with water balloons outside her home in a poor Fresno neighborhood in April. They say she quickly sought help and tried to apologize to the boy and his family. The Vangs have since moved away.

''She's 11 ... they're treating her like she's a violent parole offender,'' said Robert Beshwate, Jr., Maribel's lawyer.

Maribel, who speaks limited English, spent five days in juvenile hall with just one half-hour visit from her parents. She then spent about 30 days under house arrest, forced to wear a GPS ankle bracelet to monitor her whereabouts. She's due in court Aug. 3.

Officers denied that their response was influenced by the setting _ a low-income, largely minority neighborhood _ or language difficulties _ Maribel's family speaks limited English, and the responding don't speak Spanish.

With help from their church, the family hired Beshwate to represent Maribel at her upcoming trial. The lawyer says prosecutors aren't interested in a deal. Assistant Fresno County District Attorney Bob Ellis said he couldn't comment on the case because it involves children.

Maribel's family said the soft-spoken girl, who turned 11 in March, remains terrified _ she's a good student who struggles sometimes because English is her second language, but in a neighborhood where kids grow up fast, she keeps close to home, helping her mother take care of her four younger siblings. Maribel attends school with the boy, and says she's been taunted by him in the past.

She says was playing on the sidewalk with her 6-year-old brother and other younger children on April 29, when the boys rode by on their bikes. They started teasing her, calling her names and hitting her with water balloons, she said, holding her 1-year-old brother in her lap in her family's modest living room, where a couch and dining table share space with a crib and a bed.

When the boys refused to leave, Maribel threw a rock at them, hitting Elijah.

The aunt of one of Maribel's playmates saw the boy's forehead was cut, got him a towel to stop the bleeding and called 911
, the family said.

Maribel ran to the boy's house, two blocks from her own, to tell his parents she was sorry, she said.

Police responded to the call ready to tackle a hardened criminal.

The officers ''grabbed me from behind, by my shirt'' the girl said in Spanish. ''I was so scared. ... I didn't know what they were doing.''

Maribel panicked. The officers had the slight girl down on the ground, and one of them put his knee to her back to restrain her, her mother said in Spanish.

Guadalupe Cuevas couldn't communicate with the officers, because she doesn't speak English, and was pushed away when she tried to reach her daughter.

Maribel was crying, the police report said, but Officer Christopher Green, who handcuffed her, wrote, ''We were able to get Cuevas into the back of the patrol vehicle.''

Guadalupe Cuevas said didn't understand what was happening.

''The officer was just saying, 'I don't care, I don't care,''' Guadalupe Cuevas said in Spanish. ''He told my nephew he didn't speak his kind of English.''

The police report said Green read Maribel her Miranda rights twice, in English. The report also lists the girl's emotional state as ''apologetic'' and ''hysterical.''

Maribel's mother and her father, Martin, were able to see their daughter for half an hour the day after the incident. The girl's wrists were bruised, her mother said, and she was scared.

Maribel was kept in juvenile hall without seeing her parents again for five nights. When she was released, she had to wear an electronic monitoring bracelet that kept her under house arrest for about three more weeks, leaving school early to make it home before the 3 p.m. curfew.

This is a case where the police department ''overreacted and won't back down,'' Beshwate said. ''I don't know if they don't like Spanish speakers, if it's racism, or if they were having a bad day. But how can you defend this kind of behavior?''

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 4:25:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2005 4:26:01 AM EDT by Specop_007]
Well, we've reached the bottom folks.
Fucking ROCKS are now deadly weapons.

Please go outside and collect up all your rocks, the Agents will be by shortly to collect them.

With all due respect to those good people in Cali, its getting more and more that I really and truly wish some terrible disaster, be it manmade or natural, would completely wipe Cali from the map.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 4:30:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Well, we've reached the bottom folks.
Fucking ROCKS are now deadly weapons.

Please go outside and collect up all your rocks, the Agents will be by shortly to collect them.

With all due respect to those good people in Cali, its getting more and more that I really and truly wish some terrible disaster, be it manmade or natural, would completely wipe Cali from the map.



So rocks are but bricks are not? remember the Reginald Denny case?

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 4:30:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Well, we've reached the bottom folks.
Fucking ROCKS are now deadly weapons.

Please go outside and collect up all your rocks, the Agents will be by shortly to collect them.

With all due respect to those good people in Cali, its getting more and more that I really and truly wish some terrible disaster, be it manmade or natural, would completely wipe Cali from the map.



Well, I can kill you with a rock, quite easily if I nail you in the head so an adult who had done this should have been arrested for this type of behaviour (intentional). A child? Not in this lifetime.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 4:34:15 AM EDT
Ban Rocks....Do it for the children....Rocks are literally flooding the streets....
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:09:24 AM EDT
South Park hate crime episode...
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:10:41 AM EDT
sounds like self-defense to me....
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:19:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
sounds like self-defense to me....



You would be in fear of your life if someone threw water ballons at you?
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:26:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shoot-N-Scoot:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
sounds like self-defense to me....



You would be in fear of your life if someone threw water ballons at you?

SHe was an 11 year old girl who was getting harrassed, she did what was necessary to get the punks off of her. If I looked out the window and saw some dirtbags doing that to one of my kids, getting hit with a rock is the least of their problems.

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:26:55 AM EDT
She was being picked on, and returned the same. So she returned a rock, bet those kids dont pick on her anymore.

WTF is wrong with this generation, hell when I was kid, if you were being picked on, you punched the little bastard in the face, hopefully you busted his lip or nose.

Then you went back to whaever you were doing, nothing else was said about it.

How times have changed.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:35:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:39:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Little California Girl Faces Felony Charge for Throwing Rock at Little Boy

JULIANA BARBASSA
Associated Press Writer

'' Beshwate said. ''I don't know if they don't like Spanish speakers, if it's racism, or if they were having a bad day. But how can you defend this kind of behavior?''





Yeah its a shit thing that happened.So welcome more then likely illegaly to the US.Learn to speak English and you probly wont have issues like this.Heck citizens tax dollars are paying for the education of your 5 children.My tax dollars better include teaching English. rant off
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 6:14:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2005 6:15:14 AM EDT by eagle1911]
This should be a lesson learned, never bring a balloon to a rock fight.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 6:15:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 6:18:38 AM EDT
I wouldn't want to be the assistant district attorney who approved this charge.

I can't even believe she was arrested in the first place.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 6:29:01 AM EDT
Was this before or after the Kali cops busted them for loitering on the corner while waiting for the school bus. j/k Couldn't the water balloon throwers be considered a "Criminal Street Gang" and get the ten year minimum sentence ?

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 6:32:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Shoot-N-Scoot:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
sounds like self-defense to me....



You would be in fear of your life if someone threw water ballons at you?

SHe was an 11 year old girl who was getting harrassed, she did what was necessary to get the punks off of her. If I looked out the window and saw some dirtbags doing that to one of my kids, getting hit with a rock is the least of their problems.




Harrassed with water ballons no less.

Yes she was being picked on. If it was one of my kids I would of helped him/her plan the counter attack. It would involve a firetruck and a 1.5" hose.

But my kids dont live in the projects.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 6:44:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eagle1911:
This should be a lesson learned, never bring a balloon to a rock fight.



That was something I learned growing up in the sixties.

And yes, we really did have rock fights. When we were really pissed at each other. Usually it was just dirt clods.

God I wish I were sitting on the jury for this trial!!

When will Calif. fall into the sea?
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:00:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sydney7629:
Ban Rocks....Do it for the children....Rocks are literally flooding the streets....



No, Ban Kalifuckingfornia. It's a waste of real estate and money.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:02:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Other than my initial reaction of this is quite a bit of overkill by the authorities, it strikes me that there has to be quite a bit more to this story.

Never known anyone to move cause they got hit by a rock. An 11 year old that doesn't speak any English at all is also rare so her citizenship is in question which could explain the ankle bracelet.

Even though as a kid I would have been in prison 50 times over for throwing rocks, this story seems so slanted one way that I can't honestly be up in arms over it.

Tj



Sorry TJ, but there are communities in the US in which English is rarely spoken. Parents could have emigrated legally but still use spanish in the home. In this situation, she would have been raised speaking spanish. Also, if it is a primarily spanish speaking community, watching spanish channels on tv, her exposure to English may not have started until school.

I too am from Tennessee and used to think that way. What it all comes down to (as far as the language barrier) is that what languages the girl speaks are not under her control. It is how she is raised. To automatically condemn her for that is wrong on your part. Even if her parents were illegals, this is blatant over reaction by law enforcemant.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:04:17 AM EDT
''He told my nephew he didn't speak his kind of English.''

OK, that actually made me laugh. The rest of it is pretty disturbing, and doesn't need much elaboration.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:05:05 AM EDT
Damn, so all this time I could have charged that punk ass with attempted murder who hit me in the lip with a rock during a "gumball" war?

Hurt like HELL... busted my lip and chipped my front tooth. I think we were around 9.

For those of you that don't know... this is what I mean by a gumball:
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:05:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Other than my initial reaction of this is quite a bit of overkill by the authorities, it strikes me that there has to be quite a bit more to this story.

Never known anyone to move cause they got hit by a rock. An 11 year old that doesn't speak any English at all is also rare so her citizenship is in question which could explain the ankle bracelet.

Even though as a kid I would have been in prison 50 times over for throwing rocks, this story seems so slanted one way that I can't honestly be up in arms over it.

Tj



Once again, TJ brings words of wisdom to the forum.

Heck, with the thought-police rules schools have now I'd have been in prison a thousand times over just for what I've SAID. Actual activities would have been fewer but would have wound up with me in prison anyway.

Of course, the bullies and assholes would still be out and about abusing people, naturally.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:05:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Well, we've reached the bottom folks.
Fucking ROCKS are now deadly weapons.



Actually rocks can be used as a dangerous weapon and you might be justified in using DPF to defend yourself. It doesn't take much to start a brain bleed and end up brain dead. It's also easy to blind someone with a rock. Last I heard a water balloon won't seriously injure you.

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:05:57 AM EDT
If someone locked up my 11 year old for something like that, I would assassinate all involved. Period. What a bunch of fucking idiots.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:07:48 AM EDT
WTF !
Cali never ceases to amaze us......
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:08:35 AM EDT
I seriously doubt there's any more to this story than what was reported. Some kid got hit with a rock and had to get a couple of stitches... and everybody is so litigious and vindictive these days that all you have to do is look at somebody funny and they'll accuse you of intimidation, or making threats, or whatever they can think of. How much do you want to bet that kid's family gets sued for about a billion dollars and loses?
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:10:17 AM EDT
You know before we continue bashing California over this, we should remember that stupid stories have been posted here from every state. Well, all of them except Wyoming and Alaska, I think.

BTW - I used to do alot of work in Fresno. I can't tell you how much I hate that town. Heck, I personally heard Merle Haggard cuss Fresno while he was performing a concert there.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:11:15 AM EDT
That's bullshit.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:19:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:28:57 AM EDT
It's all about liability folks. Just look at the threads here on ARFCOM about JBT's, lazy cops, over active cops, the "should of, would of, could of's"....

When a situation like this arrises many agencies require officers to take action and then let the State Atty's Office decide what to do with the case. Unfortunately, this is done to "get the monkey off the agencies back". Because of the bitching public, threats of law suits over lazy do-nothing cops, you will see more and more of this type of needless crap.

Another example can be found in Domestic Violence calls. Just about any PHYSICAL CONTACT, no matter how minor, will almost always result in an arrest. Some States, SC being one, REQUIRES PHYSICAL ARREST if there is ANY sign of injury, minor or not.

Another example is when two 2 y/o's bite each other at day care... you can bet your ass if one parent complains, a report will be done, Family Services called, and the day care worker questioned about "how could two kids be unsupervised as to facilitate them biting one another?" Will it result in any action, most likely not, but the incident will "run it's course" through the "system".

Just the other night, I pulled a case number and did a Battery report involving two 11 year olds. One whacked the other in the head with a toy gun causing the "victim" to have to go to the ER. Did I PERSONALLY feel that it was necessary ? No. I did it because unfortunately it is becoming a standard within Law Enforcement.

Anything physical dealing with children or the elderly is likely to result in an arrest or at minimum, a documented report. It's not the street cop, it's the way "THE SYSTEM" is evolving.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:29:14 AM EDT
Let me point out the obvious,

First we all know the media is totally factual, and objective with all news reports, just like when the report on firearms or firearms issues.........................

The 9 year old, the one hit by the rock needed stitches to close the wound caused by the rock. Seems like the rock caused a real injury, to a 9 year old.

What is the worst injury that is likely to be caused by a water balloon? Water balloons are basically harmeless "kids stuff". Rock to the head can cause real injury.

Next, the police didn't speak Spanish, so it's, ''I don't know if they don't like Spanish speakers, if it's racism, or if they were having a bad day. But how can you defend this kind of behavior?'', so because the child that caused a real injury to another child was arrested, and the officers didn't speak Spanish, they were racists?

I seriuosly doubt a child going to public school is totally unable to communicate in English.

Guadalupe Cuevas couldn't communicate with the officers, because she doesn't speak English, and was pushed away when she tried to reach her daughter.

''The officer was just saying, 'I don't care, I don't care,''' Guadalupe Cuevas said in Spanish. ''He told my nephew he didn't speak his kind of English.''

Anyone else notice a problem in these to sentences? Doesn't speak English, but is quoting what the officers were saying, the officers were speaking English......................

11 year old injures a 9 year old. Do whatever you can to avoid taking responsibility, call the police racists, only speak English when it's to your advantage, etc. etc. Do anything but take responsibilty for your child's actions.

FYI I think an 11 year old getting charged criminally seems to be to young. But OTOH, if the parent's deny the child did anything wrong it's kind've tough to expect them to correct the child's behavior.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:34:02 AM EDT
Jeeez... I wonder what would have happened to me and my friends when we were teens and had BB-gun wars... Not very smart, I know, but lots of fun. We would have probably all gotten life in prison.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:38:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jbombelli:
Jeeez... I wonder what would have happened to me and my friends when we were teens and had BB-gun wars... Not very smart, I know, but lots of fun. We would have probably all gotten life in prison.



Hell, we used to do that . Try that crap now days and the damn SWAT team would come in on helo's.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 8:09:52 AM EDT
Can I have a link to that article?
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 8:15:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2005 8:32:49 AM EDT by GimpyPaw]

Originally Posted By skid2964:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Well, we've reached the bottom folks.
Fucking ROCKS are now deadly weapons.

Please go outside and collect up all your rocks, the Agents will be by shortly to collect them.

With all due respect to those good people in Cali, its getting more and more that I really and truly wish some terrible disaster, be it manmade or natural, would completely wipe Cali from the map.



So rocks are but bricks are not? remember the Reginald Denny case?




That was exactly what I was thinking when reading this. I mean, WTF? A couple of punks durring a riot can repeatedly bash a guy's head with a brick and get off but a little girl throws a rock at some bullies and she's a danger to society?

The cops over-reacting is one thing, since they often times can come under heat if they don't make an arrest, but what blows my mind is that some ass-hat DA is actually willing to process this case. I guess Fresno is now so fucking crime free that the court system and detention facilities are both way UNDER capacity. I mean, since they have nothing better to do, I can see going after a little girl.

Now if they could just round up all the widows and orphans....

-----------
eta:
As for the one family moving away after the incident. The most probable is that while the children involved are likely born in the US the parents may well be illegals. In that case they may worried that when things go to court people could get "noticed" by authorities and thus deported. Just a case of staying off the radar I guess.

Also, the parents of the little girl said they don't speak english, but where able to quote the officers as saying "I don't care. I don't care." I don't speak much spanish, but I hear it frequently enough that I can recognize words and repeat them back when heard. They probably have moderate english skills, but not to the level of being fluent. Nothing new.

When I lived in Sweden I would play the "Do you speak English?" card when I got pulled over for speeding by a Swedish cop. Always resulted in a warning rather than a ticket, which didn't bother me any. I'm very comfortable speaking and writing Swedish, but I'm smart enough to know when to play dumb.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:07:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RSF45:
WTF !
Cali never ceases to amaze us......



My sentiments exactly.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:08:24 AM EDT


Maribel panicked. The officers had the slight girl down on the ground, and one of them put his knee to her back to restrain her, her mother said in Spanish.


Had this been my daughter, I would be going to prison for a very long time.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:27:48 AM EDT
I was teasing my little brother once on the way to school. He got pissed off and took off ahead of us. I decided to get one last dig in, and that little bastard chucked a rock at me! It was in the air FOREVER! And I, being the wiseass (dumbass) that I am, said to my friend, "That'll never hi--THUNK!" And off to get stitched up I went....

Lesson learned. Little bro has a freakin good throwing arm, and good aim. Beat him up only where there are no rocks to be thrown......

GT
Now my "little bro" is 6'2" and 290 lbs....I still kick his ass on occasion, but I make sure that there are no rocks around first....
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:32:34 AM EDT
i propose a rock buyback program be implemented immediatly. we must get these deadly assult rocks off the street. it's for the children.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:35:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By grizzlyarms:
i propose a rock buyback program be implemented immediatly. we must get these deadly assult rocks off the street. it's for the children.





You can start at my house. I have 100 tons of 3/4 inch screened gravel. 20 dollars per rock and I'll selll em all back!
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:46:24 AM EDT
Hell, me and my brothers threw stuff at eachother all the time. Rocks, batteries, bricks, etc...


They charged an 11 yo girl with a felony for THAT? They just ruined her life. Before it even got started.

I guess the correct response for was to lie down and take it.

I just hope she doesn't apply that lesson to her life as an adult if she ever finds herself alone, surrounded by guys harrassing her...
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:57:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eagle1911:
This should be a lesson learned, never bring a balloon to a rock fight.



A new sig line here.

Eagle1911 - Hope you don't mind, but I am adding this to my sig line.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:58:10 AM EDT
Now where were you guys claiming rocks AREN'T deadly weapons, when that putatively ex-Israeli officer was claiming that the IDF was justified in shooting rock throwers? How many of you guys poo-poo'ing it now lined up on his side during those debates.

Unfortunately, the cop on the beat has lost a lot of his discretion (and how many of you whine about a cop using his discretion everytime it comes up? How come he let them go? how come he didn't let them gohe showed favoritisim) in many areas. Most of you are using this thread to masturbate about CA or Cops and some of you are doubly happy because you get to whine about both in the same thread. You're going to be smiling all day now.

Unfortunately we have an incident where a person propelled a missile at another person causing injury to that person requiring a trip to the ER, etc etc. That is by any and all definitions an assault. The LEO is not a trier of fact and law, that job belongs to the courts. This should make all the cop bashers happy. Take all the discretion out of their jobs.

Now we probably have a "diverse" (that's a good thing for liberals?) neighborhood, that is undergoing some growing pains. From what I know about parts of Fresno, you may have a historically black area, being absorbed into a growing hispanic community which has run up against a Hmong enclave. (Let's just say that from bitter experience the Hmong have come to believe that if they don't solve their problems, it will come out worse for them, and they can be pretty violent about protecting their own. If you don't have a clue about who or what Hmong are, you won't understand. Live with it. Ask a question in a new thread about the Hmong.) So poor Joe Billy Bob, FPD, is expected to deal with an incident that could explode in many ways. Fuck this arrest the kid and let the higher ups deal with the problesm, just don't set things off trying to explain in Hmong or Spanish which you don't speak.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:58:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:59:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2005 11:00:42 AM EDT by rdsr]
Growing up in the 60's, a neighbor kid threw a piece of brick at me. Hit in head,I don't remember if I needed stitches or not. My parents went with me to the kids parents home. Before we left his father was wipping his ass but good. We were good friends after that.
I beleive our parents settled the situation better than any govt. agency could have.
This was in detroit not Ca.

Roy
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 11:12:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
They charged an 11 yo girl with a felony for THAT? They just ruined her life. Before it even got started.



The case will be assigned to Family/Juvie Court or whatever they call it in CA. The records will be sealed and she'll likely be required to undergo some type of counseling. She's not going to San Quentin or Pelican Bay to break rocks.

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 11:29:01 AM EDT
ALWAYS TWO SIDES TO A STORY!!!!

Do we know how the rock was thrown? Was it off a balcony? Was it a pebble or a stone large enough to kill? Was she out of risk and then ambushed the kid? Isn't it summer and aren't WATER BALOONS non life threatening?

Sorry guys, I'm with holding judgment until more comes out. This story was OBVIOUSLY meant to drum up sympathy for the offender and nothing more.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 11:32:40 AM EDT
Self defense is no longer an option anymore, no matter what happens. I can't beleive what the Ca. and the country has come to. When i was a kid you whipped ass and let God sort um out.

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 11:47:17 AM EDT
california... the only state that lets murderers run free and treats 11 year old girls like killers.

hell, stuff like that happened all the time when i was a kid. i used to fight and play rough all the time and it was nothing. sometimes people got hurt, but we were just kids, so the police were never called.

when i was the same age as that kid, i got kicked in the face a couple times during a fight. i was bleeding all over the place, but nobody called 911. i just got it cleaned up and was out playing with the kid the next day. that's just the way it was - there wasn't any of this bullshit we see all the time these days. and i'm only 20 now, so this wasn't all that long ago.



Link Posted: 7/16/2005 11:56:39 AM EDT
Can you even CHARGE an 11 year old with a felony in Cali? What's the minimum age?
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