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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:49:23 AM EDT
[#1]
Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity.
They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:50:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Three points of contact...you know, like carrying a football.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:52:09 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: I think the SWAT / special police units guys would field the best answers here, but I'll ask the hive as well. Other than magazine capacity and a slightly longer barrel (7.78"), why would an FBI or special police unit choose a SEMI-AUTO pistol caliber weapon weapon such as the H&K UMP (Semi-auto FBI Config) for CQB instead of using hand guns. It seems to me that if you're going to kick in a door then a pistol would be easier to wield in tight quarters. What are your thought and opinions? *****We're talking about semi-auto pistol caliber weapons only***** I own a USC/UMP conversion and I would still use my USP pistol over my .45 ACP UMP for home protection. With that said, I fully understand the different between a CQB assault and home protection. This is a matter of personal choice for me and I don't kick in doors for a living. Magazine capacity is a huge factor, so it doesn't make sense to exclude it. Also, the longer barrel means more velocity which usually means better ammo performance. A subgun is held against the body when it's at the ready position, meaning better retention vs. a handgun which is held extended away from the body. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:54:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU"
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:54:46 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I would think that a subgun would be easier for someone to grab while you're rounding a corner and how much more accuracy do you need in a confined space? I'm not saying your wrong. Once again, I've never been in this position. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:56:52 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done  But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:58:22 AM EDT
[#7]
Given the situation, a sub-gun is still the better option, for a couple reasons;
Greater magazine capacity Greater accuracy Better retention Better options for mounting of sights, lights and lasers |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:59:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I would think that a subgun would be easier for someone to grab while you're rounding a corner and how much more accuracy do you need in a confined space? I'm not saying your wrong. Once again, I've never been in this position. Hostage shot is much easier with a shouldered weapon. You can grab the sub gun all you want, but a good slind makes it harder for someone to turn the gun on you. Think about that and then compare it to a handgun. Much easier to go after, cause a malfunction, and turn on the officer. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:01:04 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I would think that a subgun would be easier for someone to grab while you're rounding a corner and how much more accuracy do you need in a confined space? I'm not saying your wrong. Once again, I've never been in this position. Think about how you fire your pistol. Extended arms, slightly bent. When you fire a sub gun your arms are tight to the body, pulling it into your shoulder pocket with a sling. Both are easy to grab at but the sub gun is harder to take. On the subject of accuracy if you look at videos of SF, SEALS, Delta shooting, they're all controlled pairs to the sternum and/or T zone. Much easier to be fast and accurate with a sub gun than a pistol. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:04:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I would think that a subgun would be easier for someone to grab while you're rounding a corner and how much more accuracy do you need in a confined space? I'm not saying your wrong. Once again, I've never been in this position. Subgun gives you more leverage, more points of contact on the gun. It's also generally going to be closer in to your body, easier to control. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:06:19 AM EDT
[#11]
Get both?
 Subgun. Accuracy, mag capacity, recoil management, sighting systems, lights, and whatnot make a subgun a significantly more versatile platform... |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:07:27 AM EDT
[#12]
All very logical, intelligent and valid responses. Thanks for your input.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:11:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Given the size of most subguns, I'd rather have an SBR'd rifle of the same dimensions and hang a can on the end.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:11:35 AM EDT
[#14]
by the way.... don't believe the movies. A large percentage of the FBI are much safer with a computer in front of them than a gun of any sort.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:18:03 AM EDT
[#15]
Sight radius and steady three points of contact for the win
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:19:22 AM EDT
[#16]
It depends.
Anything arms length and beyond, sub/gun or carbine. Inside arms length and carbine will be difficult to impossible to handle, so pistol. jmho -3D |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:20:44 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.
I almost started down the same path (was lookign at a USC) but I hated the ergonomics on it. It felt like I was shaking hands with a 2x4. I figure 147gr Gold Dots out of the MP-5SD are close enough for HD work. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:25:29 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.
I almost started down the same path (was lookign at a USC) but I hated the ergonomics on it. It felt like I was shaking hands with a 2x4. I figure 147gr Gold Dots out of the MP-5SD are close enough for HD work. Just do an ar15 SBR and be done with it. There is a reason the MP5s are all being traded in. .. and if you would like to have a pistol cal carbine, my 7.62 Tok upper runs very well or 9mm and 45ACP uppers are available. 
-3D |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:33:26 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.
I almost started down the same path (was lookign at a USC) but I hated the ergonomics on it. It felt like I was shaking hands with a 2x4. I figure 147gr Gold Dots out of the MP-5SD are close enough for HD work. Just do an ar15 SBR and be done with it. There is a reason the MP5s are all being traded in. -3D I already have a Colt M16 11.5" and Colt LE SBR with a LWRC 10.5" piston upper (not pictured). I've just always wanted a .45 cal subgun. 
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:38:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Longer sight radius, easier to retain, longer barrel gives you slightly better performance, easier to hang stuff off it. Bigger magazines too.
There is a reason we carry a pistol as well. It's good to have a secondary, and anything shoulder fired is not alwys the best choice for all situations. If I was carrying a sub gun and a pistol, I wouldn't be uncomfortable at all running through a house with my pistol if my primary went down. I just have to do some things differently. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:39:51 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I would think that a subgun would be easier for someone to grab while you're rounding a corner and how much more accuracy do you need in a confined space? I'm not saying your wrong. Once again, I've never been in this position. If someone grabs your pistol, the fight is on––-if they grab your SMG they have hot fingers and some holes in them. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:42:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I would think that a subgun would be easier for someone to grab while you're rounding a corner and how much more accuracy do you need in a confined space? I'm not saying your wrong. Once again, I've never been in this position. If someone grabs your pistol, the fight is on––-if they grab your SMG they have hot fingers and some holes in them. Not necessarily. -3D |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:54:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I would think that a subgun would be easier for someone to grab while you're rounding a corner and how much more accuracy do you need in a confined space? I'm not saying your wrong. Once again, I've never been in this position. If someone grabs your pistol, the fight is on––-if they grab your SMG they have hot fingers and some holes in them. Not necessarily. -3D It is far easier to lose control of or use of a pistol than it is a long arm. Often in long arm retention scenarios I have been easily able to retain control of the long arm, and it is fairly easy to use one's own center of gravity to direct the weapon at the attacker's lower extremities and fire the weapon. (Disclaimer: I've trained this way with pistols, shotguns and rifles (simunition guns, red guns, etc.,) but not with SMGs, though I should add that I am the survivor of a pistol takeaway while clearing a house––-with real ammo and playing for keeps. I will take a long gun any day.) |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:54:57 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Given the size of most subguns, I'd rather have an SBR'd rifle of the same dimensions and hang a can on the end. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This. 5.56 is far more effective than a pistol round. There are no benefits to using a pistol caliber carbine over an actual rifle unless suppression is a requirement. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:04:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Given the size of most subguns, I'd rather have an SBR'd rifle of the same dimensions and hang a can on the end. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This. 5.56 is far more effective than a pistol round. There are no benefits to using a pistol caliber carbine over an actual rifle unless suppression is a requirement. True, but if the choice is MP5 in 9mm or a pistol, I'll take the SMG. Case in point––the missus simply can't be talked into liking rifles, so the options for her for HD are one of her pistols, or her UZI. I far prefer her having the UZI handy. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:15:45 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.
I got a Max-11 subgun for that much back during the elections.... |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:20:01 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: 100% agree, and I think that is the bottom line.Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. 100% disagree on that. Larger surface area + further from your body = easier to do both.Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I don't understand what this means, so..... Nevermind, I get it, well said. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:28:34 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.
I got a Max-11 subgun for that much back during the elections.... I considered that, but I wanted a .45 ACP SMG. I'm not a fan of the 9mm or the open bolt firing either. Just a personal preference. The 11 is a neat gun though and it's a blast to shoot. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:29:09 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted: 100% agree, and I think that is the bottom line.Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. 100% disagree on that. Larger surface area + further from your body = easier to do both.The subgun is closer to your body unless the handgun is holstered or in a retention position. Three points of contact closer to your body with a sling attaching it to your body makes the sub gun much harder to knock out of your hands. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I don't understand what this means, so..... Retention positions are the only ways that a handgun makes a smaller overall profile. The subgun is tucked into your shoulder, your arms are in tighter, making the overall profile smaller than having a handgun with your hands fully extended. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:33:10 AM EDT
[#30]
I own a pistol caliber subgun, and would choose it for making any sort of entry over a handgun.
If close quarters or grabbing is a concern, take the can off. It also has a rail on the bottom for VFG if needed. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:34:35 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Thank you for explaining!!Quoted: Quoted: 100% agree, and I think that is the bottom line.Sub guns are more accurate, controllable and have greater magazine capacity. They're also harder to knock out of your hands or grab than a pistol. 100% disagree on that. Larger surface area + further from your body = easier to do both.The subgun is closer to your body unless the handgun is holstered or in a retention position. Three points of contact closer to your body with a sling attaching it to your body makes the sub gun much harder to knock out of your hands. Unless you're in a SUL position the overall size of someone with a pistol vs a sub gun is minimal, if not longer. I don't understand what this means, so..... Retention positions are the only ways that a handgun makes a smaller overall profile. The subgun is tucked into your shoulder, your arms are in tighter, making the overall profile smaller than having a handgun with your hands fully extended. I stand corrected. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:39:49 AM EDT
[#32]
two pistols!
i jest, sub gun for all the reasons listed above |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 9:48:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Depends on the situation. Myself, I would prefer a shotgun. Subguns? depends on the caliber and the area which you are working.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 10:05:28 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: That looks like fun.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.I almost started down the same path (was lookign at a USC) but I hated the ergonomics on it. It felt like I was shaking hands with a 2x4. I figure 147gr Gold Dots out of the MP-5SD are close enough for HD work. Just do an ar15 SBR and be done with it. There is a reason the MP5s are all being traded in. .. and if you would like to have a pistol cal carbine, my 7.62 Tok upper runs very well or 9mm and 45ACP uppers are available. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/3dvr_m4/P4100008b-1.jpg -3D How hard is the Tok to set up? |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 2:08:00 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
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Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.
I almost started down the same path (was lookign at a USC) but I hated the ergonomics on it. It felt like I was shaking hands with a 2x4. I figure 147gr Gold Dots out of the MP-5SD are close enough for HD work. Just do an ar15 SBR and be done with it. There is a reason the MP5s are all being traded in. .. and if you would like to have a pistol cal carbine, my 7.62 Tok upper runs very well or 9mm and 45ACP uppers are available. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/3dvr_m4/P4100008b-1.jpg -3D That looks like fun. How hard is the Tok to set up? It is fun... and cheap to shoot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ox60iuDPQY From here: http://www.cncgunsparts.com/ar-15_m-16_762x25_uppers -3D |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 2:29:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
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Hell Im sorting out what it's going to take to get a semi-auto Mp-5SD clone for this very purpose. I'd like my initial police interveiw to be something other than me saying "WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU" I'll have $4K in my UMP before all is said and done But I'm using a H&K UMP lower instead of the US made grease gun lower.
I almost started down the same path (was lookign at a USC) but I hated the ergonomics on it. It felt like I was shaking hands with a 2x4. I figure 147gr Gold Dots out of the MP-5SD are close enough for HD work. Just do an ar15 SBR and be done with it. There is a reason the MP5s are all being traded in. .. and if you would like to have a pistol cal carbine, my 7.62 Tok upper runs very well or 9mm and 45ACP uppers are available. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/3dvr_m4/P4100008b-1.jpg -3D That looks like fun. How hard is the Tok to set up? It is fun... and cheap to shoot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ox60iuDPQY From here: http://www.cncgunsparts.com/ar-15_m-16_762x25_uppers -3D Very cool 
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