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Posted: 8/3/2005 1:05:21 PM EDT
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/index.html

Autopsy: Toddler hit twice by LAPD
Report details wounds suffered in police shootout with father

From Stan Wilson
CNN

Wednesday, August 3, 2005; Posted: 3:09 p.m. EDT (19:09 GMT)

story.girl.ap.jpg
Suzie Marie Lopez appears in an undated family photo.

LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- A toddler girl suffered two gunshot wounds from Los Angeles police -- one of them blowing out most of her brain -- during officers' standoff with her father last month, an autopsy report concluded.

Suzie Marie Lopez died as a result of a high-velocity rifle wound to her head fired from a distance, a medical examination found, while her father reportedly held the 19-month-old girl on his right side during a gunfire exchange with police.

The child, who weighed 20 pounds, also was shot in the leg. Both bullets traveled through her body, and several minor fragment wounds were detected on the surface of her lower and upper extremities, according to the autopsy report, which was released Tuesday.

SWAT members of the Los Angeles Police Department fired up to 60 rounds when they stormed a business where Jose Raul Pena barricaded himself while holding his daughter as a "human shield," police said.

Pena, 34, died of multiple gunshot wounds during the failed rescue attempt.

The 2 1/2-hour standoff began with a 911 disturbance call when Pena's estranged common-law wife accused him of threatening her, the toddler and a stepdaughter, according to police.

The autopsy report found no evidence that the toddler had suffered previous physical abuse.

Pena began shooting at police when officers arrived at the scene. He eventually unleashed 40 shots, while police fired more than 100 rounds throughout the ordeal, which included a failed negotiation effort.

When SWAT members decided to make a rescue of the girl, Pena fired through the walls of his office, wounding one officer who managed to toss a diversionary explosive device into the room, police said.

After officers fired repeatedly into the room, Pena and the infant were found dead, with an empty 9-mm handgun resting in the father's hand, police said.

Authorities haven't determined which officer's weapon killed the infant. The medical examination found no projectiles in the girl's body, the report said.

A complete police investigation into the shooting will be presented to the Los Angeles district attorney's office and the police department's use-of-force board, which ultimately will make recommendations on the tactical decisions made during the standoff.

In earlier statements, Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton blamed Pena solely for the death of his daughter and found no evidence in the preliminary investigation that pointed to any criminal wrongdoing by police officers.

Last month's ordeal was the second time in the SWAT team's 38-year history that a hostage died during a standoff, police said. In the early 1970s, a hostage-taker killed the victim, according to police.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:07:25 PM EDT
- Way to go Rambo.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:07:41 PM EDT


Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:08:36 PM EDT
"A high velocity rifle round"........ the shit's gonna hit the fan over this one.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:08:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 1:10:14 PM EDT by WildBoar]
They fired 60 rounds? Sounds like a serious lack of discipline but I am thankful I dont have to end up in those situations. I cannot imaging the feeling those guys have right now. If I found out I killed a baby even by accident, I think I would need counseling for a long time.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:10:15 PM EDT
May have neglected to compensate for the AR sight height?

Next: Watch all those .223 rifles in the squad cars get replaced with "safer" 870's loaded with old #4.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:10:32 PM EDT
Can some of our CA member take a moment to piss on his grave and report back?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:10:51 PM EDT
I'm almost positive I wouldn't have fired in that situation. One, according to this story, they couldn't see what they were shooting at. Two, the guy was holding a child. Why would anyone spray and pray in that type of situation? That's what it sounds like they did. I mean, 60 rounds, with a child being held in front? Come on.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:11:24 PM EDT
That man does not deserve the title FATHER

He was a cowardly bastard who should never have drawn breath.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:12:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 1:13:59 PM EDT by Oslow]
The 2 1/2-hour standoff began with a 911 disturbance call when Pena's estranged common-law wife accused him of threatening her, the toddler and a stepdaughter, according to police.

If the police were trying to save the little girl they pretty much failed at that.

Two snipers; both missed?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:14:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
I'm almost positive I wouldn't have fired in that situation. One, according to this story, they couldn't see what they were shooting at. Two, the guy was holding a child. Why would anyone spray and pray in that type of situation? That's what it sounds like they did. I mean, 60 rounds, with a child being held in front? Come on.



Strikes me as extremely poor handling of the situation as well.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:15:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 1:15:57 PM EDT by Grunteled]

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
I'm almost positive I wouldn't have fired in that situation. One, according to this story, they couldn't see what they were shooting at. Two, the guy was holding a child. Why would anyone spray and pray in that type of situation? That's what it sounds like they did. I mean, 60 rounds, with a child being held in front? Come on.



What would you do while under fire inside a house with bullets comming through the walls? Did they know the location of the child at that time?

Probably woulf have been better to wait him out, but hindsight and all that. He killed his kid, as surely as he'd put a pistol to her head.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:19:47 PM EDT
Not to be a dick but does the LAPD really have a great track record ?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:22:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:23:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
I'm almost positive I wouldn't have fired in that situation. One, according to this story, they couldn't see what they were shooting at. Two, the guy was holding a child. Why would anyone spray and pray in that type of situation? That's what it sounds like they did. I mean, 60 rounds, with a child being held in front? Come on.



What would you do while under fire inside a house with bullets comming through the walls? Did they know the location of the child at that time?

Probably woulf have been better to wait him out, but hindsight and all that. He killed his kid, as surely as he'd put a pistol to her head.



Oh, make no mistake. I totally blame the sperm donor for the child's death. However, it sounded like the LEO's knew he had the kid held in front of him and they still fired. Besides, why would a sniper fire his weapon if he couldn't see a target? If the bullet that hit the child in the head was in fact a .308 round, it had to have been a sniper who fired that round. Bad situation all around.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:24:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:


What would you do while under fire inside a house with bullets comming through the walls? Did they know the location of the child at that time?



Apparently not and gee, call me crazy, that's a pretty damn good reason to not shoot blindly on a friggin rescue attempt.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:29:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redleg13a:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
I'm almost positive I wouldn't have fired in that situation. One, according to this story, they couldn't see what they were shooting at. Two, the guy was holding a child. Why would anyone spray and pray in that type of situation? That's what it sounds like they did. I mean, 60 rounds, with a child being held in front? Come on.



What would you do while under fire inside a house with bullets comming through the walls? Did they know the location of the child at that time?

Probably woulf have been better to wait him out, but hindsight and all that. He killed his kid, as surely as he'd put a pistol to her head.



Oh, make no mistake. I totally blame the sperm donor for the child's death. However, it sounded like the LEO's knew he had the kid held in front of him and they still fired. Besides, why would a sniper fire his weapon if he couldn't see a target? If the bullet that hit the child in the head was in fact a .308 round, it had to have been a sniper who fired that round. Bad situation all around.



It just says "high velocity rifle round", not that it was fired by snipers or that it was a .308. I would doubt that snipers fired at walls or would be entering the home. Where did snipers come from. I didn't remember seeing anything about them unless it was an earlier story.

I agree, bad situation, and poorly executed entry.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:32:21 PM EDT
I just cant see that there could be any excuse for this outcome.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:35:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 1:35:56 PM EDT by t-stox]
Hey look I'm one of the first to critisize the police for jack boot thuggery BUT what's the point of posting this news? Except to spread bad feeling towards cops on this board ? It was a fucked up situation so while this guy was firing at them what should they have done? Spray mace back at him?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:36:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:


What would you do while under fire inside a house with bullets comming through the walls? Did they know the location of the child at that time?



Apparently not and gee, call me crazy, that's a pretty damn good reason to not shoot blindly on a friggin rescue attempt.



Ok your crazy, so now on to other business.

I understand your point. It wasn't a great operation or sound practice, but call me crazy, rescues included.... once bullets start comming out the walls and wounding your team the priorty swiftly becomes stop the fucker right damn now.

Shooting through a wall at a suspected presence is one thing. Bullets comming through the wall, any one of which could be the lord calling you home today, is quite another and I'd understand returning fire even though in a strict sense you are creating a potential for a worse situation. These guys got the "worse" from it.

Don't get me wrong, if it were my family I'd be furious.... and I understand anyone connected to it who is.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:38:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Not to be a dick but does the LAPD really have a great track record ?



Yes, 200+ shots fired hostage rescues. This is either the first or second case that the hostage was killed - reports varied on the number, but this may be the first.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:39:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 1:41:42 PM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:


What would you do while under fire inside a house with bullets comming through the walls? Did they know the location of the child at that time?



Apparently not and gee, call me crazy, that's a pretty damn good reason to not shoot blindly on a friggin rescue attempt.



Ok your crazy, so now on to other business.

I understand your point. It wasn't a great operation or sound practice, but call me crazy, rescues included.... once bullets start comming out the walls and wounding your team the priorty swiftly becomes stop the fucker right damn now.

Shooting through a wall at a suspected presence is one thing. Bullets comming through the wall, any one of which could be the lord calling you home today, is quite another and I'd understand returning fire even though in a strict sense you are creating a potential for a worse situation. These guys got the "worse" from it.

Don't get me wrong, if it were my family I'd be furious.... and I understand anyone connected to it who is.



I respectfully disagree. They should have grabbed their wounded and unassed the zone. I imagine that some of the shooters let their emotions get the better of them as I don't think they would have purposefully put their lives ahead of a childs. But I could be wrong.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:43:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:48:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Not to be a dick but does the LAPD really have a great track record ?



Well gee, they only invented the concept of the SWAT team and are probably some of the best shooters on the planet. Unfortunately, things went bad this time.


From what I have heard and seen, the father was shooting at the cops using his baby as a human shield. Dad was also coked up and had been drinking. After the father cut off negotiations and started shooting using the baby as a shield again, the officers believed it was about to turn into a murder-suicide and a decision was made to enter the building. The officers thought that the scumbag was wounded, but when they entered the building, he had hidden in a small room and was shooting through the walls, apparently uninjured. The number 1 entry man was hit from these shots and went down. The others continued on into this small room/closet, and the dad and baby were shot and killed. In no way was this spray and pray shooting. Someone messed up and they are all taking it pretty hard. due to the fragmentation of the rounds, it will probably be impossible to determine which team member fired the fatal shots, at least forensically.

From what I can gather, the entry team had AR-type rifles, as is standard nowdays. No snipers were able to get a shot off. The fatal shots were from the entry team.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:51:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted by Wildboar:
They fired 60 rounds? Sounds like a serious lack of discipline but I am thankful I dont have to end up in those situations. I cannot imaging the feeling those guys have right now. If I found out I killed a baby even by accident, I think I would need counseling for a long time.




Originally Posted By redleg13a:
I'm almost positive I wouldn't have fired in that situation. One, according to this story, they couldn't see what they were shooting at. Two, the guy was holding a child. Why would anyone spray and pray in that type of situation? That's what it sounds like they did. I mean, 60 rounds, with a child being held in front? Come on.



If the part in red is true, I wouldn't expect officers to be shooting.

And yes LAPD SWAT is that good. I beieve there was 1 other hostage killed, 38 years agom and I got no particulars.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:01:30 PM EDT
LASD killed a hostage a few years ago. A robbery went bad and a long standoff ensued. The hostage negotiator got the bad guy to agree to come out. Shithead decided it would be a good idea to switch clothes with a hostage before they walked out TOGETHER.

The sniper got the green light to take out shithead because he violated the agreement, and they were afraid he'd shoot somebody else (previosly had done so). The sniper takes out the hostage wearing the suspect's clothes.

I'm not with LAPD, but I know guys on the dept. The SWAT guys are in counseling, basically almost suicidal. A couple of them were immediately saying things like, "I want to trade places with her." They are devastated.

Chairborne SWAT dogs here should back it on down a notch. These guys are some of the best trained operators in the world. A mistake was made, and there is little room to deny that. But what is galling is the second guessing by internet commandos who aren't qualified to shine their shoes.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:03:46 PM EDT

And yes LAPD SWAT is that good. I beieve there was 1 other hostage killed, 38 years agom and I got no particulars.


Actually I heard the hostage was wounded in the leg, the baby girl was the first kill
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:10:25 PM EDT
How anyone can blame the police for this is beyond me.

While they may be the ones who pulled the trigger, the person whose job it was to defend that baby with their own life, was the very same person who was using her as a human shield.

Tragedy is an understatement in this case. Very, very sad.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:12:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
Hey look I'm one of the first to critisize the police for jack boot thuggery BUT what's the point of posting this news? Except to spread bad feeling towards cops on this board ? It was a fucked up situation so while this guy was firing at them what should they have done? Spray mace back at him?



So we shouldn't bring to light when the ones appointed to "Protect and serve" fuck up, or are you one of those that will say it was EVERYONES fault but the JBT that did the shooting.

Go another thread
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:27:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoCalJBT:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Not to be a dick but does the LAPD really have a great track record ?



Yes, 200+ shots fired hostage rescues. This is either the first or second case that the hostage was killed - reports varied on the number, but this may be the first.




LAPD SWAT is one of the most elite hostage rescue outfits IN THE WORLD.

I have trained under a retired Officer in the SWAT team, and he knew his shit. I wish I had his contact info, I would like to ask him about this.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:30:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoCalJBT:

I'm not with LAPD, but I know guys on the dept. The SWAT guys are in counseling, basically almost suicidal. A couple of them were immediately saying things like, "I want to trade places with her." They are devastated.

Chairborne SWAT dogs here should back it on down a notch. These guys are some of the best trained operators in the world. A mistake was made, and there is little room to deny that. But what is galling is the second guessing by internet commandos who aren't qualified to shine their shoes.



I can't imagine what it would be like to be involved in that.

I think the feelings they are having are deserved and indicative of a feeling human with remorse, but I will not go so far as to agree that they are the guilty parties. I think that is stretching it.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:34:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
How anyone can blame the police for this is beyond me.

While they may be the ones who pulled the trigger, the person whose job it was to defend that baby with their own life, was the very same person who was using her as a human shield.

Tragedy is an understatement in this case. Very, very sad.




Easy, I do it all the time as I sit comfortably in my chair with my feet propped up and a twinkie in my mouth.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:35:33 PM EDT
The sperm donor killed her, as sure as if he'd choked her to death. Regardless, some cops are suffering mightily over this, whether any action is taken against them or not.

My heart goes out to the girl (though only God knows what she was spared by an early death) and to the officer(s) as well. As for "Dad?" All I can say is "We believe Hell is real: another good reason to be a Christian."
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:43:48 PM EDT
Geeze if I lived in LA and was taken hostage id pray to God that the LAPD did NOT show up.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:47:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAR15:
Geeze if I lived in LA and was taken hostage id pray to God that the LAPD did NOT show up.



LAPD knows there stuff. Shit happens, and this is a tragedy.

Ever read the "Man in the Arena" speech by Theodore Roosevelt? Look it up. Its a speech given by T.R. in the spring of 1910, in Sorbonne, France.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:48:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Besides, why would a sniper fire his weapon if he couldn't see a target? If the bullet that hit the child in the head was in fact a .308 round, it had to have been a sniper who fired that round. Bad situation all around.


Wasnt a sniper shot.

BG and child were in a closed up office. Officers were inside the building, but outside the office. BG started shooting through the office walls at the officers, hitting one. They fired back, trajically hitting both the BG and his daughter.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:55:51 PM EDT
Cops fired through the wall? Well, most people wouldn't shoot through a wall at an attacker to save their own lives. These guys did the right thing, and they were working outside the box, and that may well have saved some lives. I wish the asshole would have shot himself and saved everyone the pain.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:04:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Cops fired through the wall? Well, most people wouldn't shoot through a wall at an attacker to save their own lives.



I have attended masny training courses that stressed that walls are concealment, not cover, and to shoot through the wall if the threat hides behind one. I wonder if this incident will result in some change in doctrine?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:09:54 PM EDT
i will say this. my sincerest condolances go out to the family of the little girl that was killed. and my sincerest condolances go out to the members of the team that have to live with this for the rest of their lives. no one should monday morning quarterback these guys until you live a day in their shoes. these decisions are super fast paced with many months and years of second guessing to follow.
the news media never ever reports the whole story and everyone here knows this. think of every comment made about your evil black rifles, high cap mags, and 50 cals, that are condemned for their appearence.

until you walk in their shoes, work in that city environment and risk not comming home to your families, no one here should pass judgement. just my 2 cents
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:19:01 PM EDT
It was the guy's fault. Not the cop's. What a coward hiding behind his own daughter while he himself shot away.

If a uniformed officer points a gun at me and was speaking in Klingon I would still understnd completely not to make any stupid sudden movements.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:35:19 PM EDT
Not going to take time to read through this whole thread, but has anyone stopped to think that in an active shooter situation, the hostage taker may have moved at the instant one of the SWAT guys pulled the trigger? I can see where it'd be extremely difficult to get a good sight picture on the father, who may have held the baby up in front of him and made her a shield just as one of the SWAT shooters fired a round. And with that in mind, perhaps the SWAT guy should have held off, but I wasn't there and won't pass judgement on any of them. At least they put away the illegal immigrant/criminal dad permanently.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:37:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Not to be a dick but does the LAPD really have a great track record ?



Probably the worst in the country.


Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:45:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
They fired 60 rounds? Sounds like a serious lack of discipline but I am thankful I dont have to end up in those situations. I cannot imaging the feeling those guys have right now. If I found out I killed a baby even by accident, I think I would need counseling for a long time.



The suspect was under the influence of narcotics.

Justin
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:59:53 PM EDT
If he wanted to be killed by the cops, he could have left his daughter
out of it.

F-ing coward


GM
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:09:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
Hey look I'm one of the first to critisize the police for jack boot thuggery BUT what's the point of posting this news? Except to spread bad feeling towards cops on this board ? It was a fucked up situation so while this guy was firing at them what should they have done? Spray mace back at him?



Dumbest arguement ever.

No, shoot him once in the head would work.

Shouldn't spread bad feeling towards people....ok no more posts on ARFCOM. We offend the democrat posters that troll, the ATF posters....
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:23:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoCalJBT:
LASD killed a hostage a few years ago. A robbery went bad and a long standoff ensued. The hostage negotiator got the bad guy to agree to come out. Shithead decided it would be a good idea to switch clothes with a hostage before they walked out TOGETHER.

The sniper got the green light to take out shithead because he violated the agreement, and they were afraid he'd shoot somebody else (previosly had done so). The sniper takes out the hostage wearing the suspect's clothes.

I'm not with LAPD, but I know guys on the dept. The SWAT guys are in counseling, basically almost suicidal. A couple of them were immediately saying things like, "I want to trade places with her." They are devastated.

Chairborne SWAT dogs here should back it on down a notch. These guys are some of the best trained operators in the world. A mistake was made, and there is little room to deny that. But what is galling is the second guessing by internet commandos who aren't qualified to shine their shoes.



+1
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:14:52 PM EDT
this place gets like assweb more and more each day
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:33:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 5:37:39 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
They fired 60 rounds? Sounds like a serious lack of discipline but I am thankful I dont have to end up in those situations. I cannot imaging the feeling those guys have right now. If I found out I killed a baby even by accident, I think I would need counseling for a long time.



The suspect was under the influence of narcotics.

Justin



um ok. thats why they fired 60 rounds? I dont understand if the mention of narcotics has anything to do with my view but will take it into consideration. Just sucks for the shooters and the baby. I cant imagine the pain of finding out your rounds struck a child. I would be crying and kicking the fathers corpes like a tin can down the hallway at the same time for making me get into that situation.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:45:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Not to be a dick but does the LAPD really have a great track record ?



Probably the worst in the country.


Sgat1r5



LAPD as an agency and LAPD SWAT are two different things when it comes to reputation. LAPD SWAT has an outstanding track record and are one of the best in the world when it comes to tactical teams.

I love how the idiots here (not toward you Sgt) think cause they got an AR with all the "bells and whistles" they are now instant "tactical operators"!

What crap!!!!

Semper Fi,
ASO544

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:47:43 PM EDT
Where's Lon Horiuchi?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:49:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
They fired 60 rounds? Sounds like a serious lack of discipline but I am thankful I dont have to end up in those situations. I cannot imaging the feeling those guys have right now. If I found out I killed a baby even by accident, I think I would need counseling for a long time.



The suspect was under the influence of narcotics.

Justin



um ok. thats why they fired 60 rounds? I dont understand if the mention of narcotics has anything to do with my view but will take it into consideration. Just sucks for the shooters and the baby. I cant imagine the pain of finding out your rounds struck a child. I would be crying and kicking the fathers corpes like a tin can down the hallway at the same time for making me get into that situation.




It means more rounds would be required to put the suspect out of the fight. Hence, they fired lots of rounds to ensure that he was down fo rthe count.
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