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Posted: 1/9/2005 7:02:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 2:04:50 PM EDT by Combatvet]
ENDED
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:05:46 AM EDT
What phone calls? Don't like the rules, don't go to the range.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:08:27 AM EDT
What are the rules at the range? If there is an age limit and your son is younger then you are wrong. If the rules are okay with a 5 year old shooting then you are right.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:09:15 AM EDT
Im on your side if you want to let your son shoot, I think that is Great!...


But calling the attorney....

That sounds kinda Ghey..

You can raise hell in better ways.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:09:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combatvet:
I went to a local range yesterday and spent a few minutes setting up, ensured the range was hot, then loaded my AR and sat my 5 year old son down at the bench next to me. I then explained to him the rules and sat him on my lap then handed him control of the AR that was on a sand bag and told him to squeeze the trigger when I told him to. I controlled the recoil of the AR so it would not hurt him. The first several shots were on target but a few inches off center. We were shooting at a 25 yard target. About five minutes into shooting the "range master" came out shouting at me and told me that my son was too young to be shooting an assault rifle and I would have to stop or leave. I explained to him that I was a Leo and I knew what my son is capable of doing. He then called me a smart ass and told me to leave the range. I think even though it is private property I will make some phone calls to an attorney friend of mine.



What kind of more suitable gun did this have in mind?


Some of our worst enemies are fellow gunowners.....
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:09:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By peekay:
What phone calls? Don't like the rules, don't go to the range.




psstt... cant you read? .. He is a LEO ... the rules dont apply to him...










bet ya someone will not notice the smiley....
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:12:02 AM EDT
And next weeks post..
"Me and my son went and shot dogs!!"

Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:12:08 AM EDT
Just another dumbass. I guess your kid shooting a Rem 7400 is ok then?
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:12:29 AM EDT
What a dickhead. Did he dress you down in front of your son?

I don't see anything wrong with what you were doing *IF* you had good control of the shooting situation (and it sounds like you did). Don't see what a lawyer can do, but maybe you can get the rangemaster reprimanded.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:12:51 AM EDT
You're in the wrong. Drop it, is MO.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:14:28 AM EDT
I'd call and complain to his boss.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:14:57 AM EDT
I did not mean to imply that being a LEO offers me special treatment. I just told him that so he would know how serious I am about gun safety (Yes, I know some feel that cops have the worst record of gun safety). No rules about age limits were posted and I let my son shoot a Ruger 10/22 weeks earlier.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:16:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:17:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 7:23:28 AM EDT by RiffRandall]

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Just another dumbass. I guess your kid shooting a Rem 7400 is ok then?



Sounds like a typical range-nazi.  I'd find another range if they employ fvcktarded little pricks like that.  

<edit to add> If there wasn't any such rules posted & nobody said shit about the previous 10-22 session then fuck'em.  Go back with a .22lr conversion for the AR & dare the little powertipping fag to say something.  Start off with the 10-22, if nobody says anything switch to the .22lr converted AR.  If the little dicked rangenazi throws a fit then he's just an asshole Fudd type.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:19:00 AM EDT
IMHO, the guy's wrong, but he's the rangemaster.  Don't call a lawyer, though.  See if he has a higher-up first.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:21:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 7:24:40 AM EDT by FightingHellfish]
Hmmmmmm.....

The range can enforce whatever rules they want.  Sounds like you had 100% control of the weapon and your son  while the shooting was being done, so I got no issues there.  I can understand the RO though.  Look at it this way, you know what your son is capable of doing, but the RO had no way of knowing what you are capable of doing.  Remember that you are a stranger to him and it his job as the RO to keep the range 100% safe.  As a LEO you should respect his right to make the  call and understand that it was his job to do it, even if you dis-agreed with the decision.


"I explained to him that I was a Leo and I knew what my son is capable of doing."  

What does your Zodiac sign have to do with it?

Oh, I guess you meant that your a LEO.  Okay, once again, how does this tie in?  Does your academy teach "Capabilities Of Five Year Olds" as a class?  Anybody that's spent much time shooting with cops knows that being a cop doesn't make you a firearms expert.


Basically my point is this:  It was cool to be safely shooting with your son, but especially as a LEO, you should have understood the authority to make the decision, even if you dis-agreed with it.


Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:23:45 AM EDT
What was the name of the range?
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:23:57 AM EDT
If he was shooting the 10/22 then what's wrong with shooting the AR.  I'd call the boss first and get the real info, then if it turns out the range master was being a jackass then report him.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:25:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Hmmmmmm.....

The range can enforce whatever rules they want.  Sounds like you had 100% control of the weapon and your son  while the shooting was being done, so I got no issues there.  I can understand the RO though.  Look at it this way, you know what your son is capable of doing, but the RO had no way of knowing what you are capable of doing.  Remember that you are a stranger to him and it his job as the RO to keep the range 100% safe.  As a LEO you should respect his right to make the  call and understand that it was his job to do it, even if you dis-agreed with the decision.


"I explained to him that I was a Leo and I knew what my son is capable of doing."  

What does your Zodiac sign have to do with it?

Oh, I guess you meant that your a LEO.  Okay, once again, how does this tie in?  Does your academy teach "Capabilities Of Five Year Olds" as a class?  Anybody that's spent much time shooting with cops knows that being a cop doesn't make you a firearms expert.


Basically my point is this:  It was cool to be safely shooting with your son, but especially as a LEO, you should have understood the authority to make the decision, even if you dis-agreed with it.





+1

Who cares if you're an LEO.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:28:50 AM EDT
The type of gun isn't important. Teaching your children to shoot is a personal decision and should be done privately. It would be a distraction on a public range.  I know that if I was at a range where a 5 year old was shooting, I would be distracted.  I don't even feel comfortable  when  some adults are handling firearms.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:29:38 AM EDT
While I agree that this "Ranger Master" sounds as if he went a little overboard I don't think it warrents a call to an attorney.  I mean c'mon man...
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:29:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combatvet:
I think even though it is private property I will make some phone calls to an attorney friend of mine.




You what?  You can't be serious?  What crime was committed?  If anything the crime is with you.  Since your son had to be on your lap and YOU had to control the rifle then obviously the child WAS to small for the gun.   The SHOOTER should always have FULL control of the firearm regardless iof age.

The rangemaster did the right thing.

And the fact that you even mention lawyer is a fucking joke.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:30:51 AM EDT
I'm on your side of this one, but think the situation could have been handled better. You guys were arguing about opinions, that never gets you anywhere.  To bolster your credibility in this argument of ideals you mentioned you were a LEO and a father. That makes you credible, but he still has authority on his side, so no matter what you said, he would still have won the argument.  To gain leverage you should try using his own rules and regulations(which give him his authority) to bolster your position. You said there were no age limits posted. That would have made for an interesting point to mention to him. If there is indeed no age restriction, his authority is compromised on that issue. So on, so forth.
I'd go back with a bolt gun chambered in .223 and ask him if this is a more suitable rifle for the kid to shoot.  If he says, "Yes,that's a fine rifle. Anything is better than those mean nasty assault weapon bullet hoses.  Did I mention I like to blow my cat?"
Then you have an even better position to educate, discuss, argue.....

That, or you can go somewhere more black rifle friendly.
Good luck. I bet your son loved shooting that rifle.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:33:40 AM EDT
Sounds like a certain rangfe here in Houston, TX.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:36:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:39:47 AM EDT
Yeah, you believe in property rights, don't you? I wonder, as a "leo" if you were called out to someones home because a tresspasser was there for whatever reason, and refused to leave, would you recommend to the tresspasser that he call a lawyer, or at the victims request would you issue a criminal tresspass warning and force him to leave or be arrested? I thought so.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:40:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 7:42:21 AM EDT by FightingHellfish]

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
I'm on your side of this one, but think the situation could have been handled better. You guys were arguing about opinions, that never gets you anywhere.  To bolster your credibility in this argument of ideals you mentioned you were a LEO and a father. That makes you credible, but he still has authority on his side, so no matter what you said, he would still have won the argument.  To gain leverage you should try using his own rules and regulations(which give him his authority) to bolster your position. You said there were no age limits posted. That would have made for an interesting point to mention to him. If there is indeed no age restriction, his authority is compromised on that issue. So on, so forth.
I'd go back with a bolt gun chambered in .223 and ask him if this is a more suitable rifle for the kid to shoot.  If he says, "Yes,that's a fine rifle. Anything is better than those mean nasty assault weapon bullet hoses.  Did I mention I like to blow my cat?"
Then you have an even better position to educate, discuss, argue.....

That, or you can go somewhere more black rifle friendly.
Good luck. I bet your son loved shooting that rifle.




The main rule of any public range is "The Range Officer is in charge."   Who's running the range while your splitting legal hairs?  Right or wrong, he gets to make the decision.  Something like a public range has to be controlled or else you get somebody killed.

I don't like it either.  That's why I rarely shoot at places like that, I belong to a private club and I shoot out on public lands away from people.  

Bottom line:  Go to a public range, the RO is in charge, not you.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:42:06 AM EDT
Most (not all) Ranges in this country use the NRA range proceedures to conduct range operations. If this range was following the NRA range book there was a written policy established in the Range SOP. Ask to see it as it is required to be posted. Look for age issues guidance if any at all. If this guy did not follow the SOP then ask the Chief Range Safety Office what rules he follows? A range safety officer (RSO) and I am one, better follow the rules or their insurance can go to Hell fast. Lastly, as a Certified NRA instructor I want to say  Thank You for adding one more person to the number of people who enjoy the shooting sports. Please keep up the good work.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:12:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 8:12:48 AM EDT by Tango7]

Originally Posted By MikeTx:
Yeah, you believe in property rights, don't you? I wonder, as a "leo" if you were called out to someones home because a tresspasser was there for whatever reason, and refused to leave, would you recommend to the tresspasser that he call a lawyer, or at the victims request would you issue a criminal tresspass warning and force him to leave or be arrested? I thought so.



Gee, was Combatvet trespassing on the range? Did he refuse to leave after being asked, then told, to do so?  Rather grand assumption on your part, IMHO. Sounds otherwise like this thread is an excuse to post the Mod.1 Mk.0 "F*'n JBT's" rant.

I don't agree with the lawyer bit - I'd much rather talk to the head RSO or talk to one of the Board of directors (other admin) to get a clarification. The "assault rifle" part is what troubles me. Maybe if he was shooting a .410 double lock Boss & Co., or a .28  Parker it would have been acceptable?

Sounds like another "Sportsman for Kerry" (aka "Good gun" owner) who couldn't stand one of the "evil bullet hoses" being handled by <gasp> a child... after all, they were banned to protect them, right

BTW,  if an LEO places someone under arrest, he has to reccomend contacting a lawyer.. It's called "Issuing a miranda warning", and it comes from Miranda v. Arizona. Go here for a brief summary.


The following is a minimal Miranda warning, as outlined in the Miranda v Arizona case.

You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.
You have the right to be speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning.
If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense.

The following is a much more verbose Miranda warning, designed to cover all bases that a detainee might encounter while in police custody. A detainee may be asked to sign a statement acknowledging the following.

You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions. Do you understand?

Anything you do say may be used against you in a court of law. Do you understand?

You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future. Do you understand?

If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. Do you understand?

If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. Do you understand?

Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?

Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:23:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combatvet:
I did not mean to imply that being a LEO offers me special treatment. I just told him that so he would know how serious I am about gun safety (Yes, I know some feel that cops have the worst record of gun safety). No rules about age limits were posted and I let my son shoot a Ruger 10/22 weeks earlier.



Hee hee heeeeeeeeee. At the range I used to belong to in Orygun the only person who shot himself WAS an LEO, who had not yet mastered the finer points of draw and fire. He was ok though, just a graze to the right buttock. The newspaper reported the accident as a law enforcement officer who was shot at an "undiscloded location."

On a more serious note however, I would go talk to the range owners and find out exactly what the age limits and complete rules are.

NMSight
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:25:38 AM EDT
I would like to teach my daughter to shoot, but she doesn't have the required attention span for me to take her (my ownd requirement), even though she knows gun safety (have been teaching her since she was 2).
But I would not let her try to shoot the AR because it's too big for her, even though she is big for her age.

She cannot put the buttstock in her shoulder and reach the trigger,  or get proper head position on the rifle, which makes for an unsafe situation, because she cannot control the recoil or be sure that sights are on target.

When she does first learn, I'll probably get a Chimpmunk for her.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:31:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 8:34:01 AM EDT by MikeTx]

BTW, if an LEO places someone under arrest, he has to reccomend contacting a lawyer.. It's called "Issuing a miranda warning", and it comes from Miranda v. Arizona. Go here for a brief summary.


If you don't know what you're talking about just say so, because the Miranda has no such "recommendation" in it. It simply advises that you can have an attorney. And you can take your juvenile "John Kerry" and "Anti gun" remarks and put them in your limited mentallity backside.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:36:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:42:06 AM EDT
I think a phone call or letter from a lawyer would be a nice wake up call to management. Perhaps it would prompt them calm down some of their more zealous range nazis. Shows that you can't push folks around since some of them may push back.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:48:23 AM EDT
You should have asked him old he thinks someone needs to be to shoot an "assault weapon".  (as if he truly knows what an assault weapon is)
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:54:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 8:57:31 AM EDT by MikeTx]

Originally Posted By Jeep29:
I think a phone call or letter from a lawyer would be a nice wake up call to management. Perhaps it would prompt them calm down some of their more zealous range nazis. Shows that you can't push folks around since some of them may push back.



As far as I know, one can do what one wants to with their own property. I'D love to be that owner, and have some dickhead lawyer call me over this jbt crybaby. I'd dare him to make me allow what I DON'T allow on my private property. Then, I'd call this cops supervisor and have a few choice words with him about his whimpering sniveling, thinks he has special rights so called police officer.  Ha ha! I'd have some jbt and lawyer ass! It would be good!

If this cops kid got hurt at this range by some accident that he didn't foresee, say muzzle flash, or getting his hand messed up on the table becasue of recoil or something, you can bet he'd be trying to sue the range for his own violation of the rules.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:58:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jeep29:
I think a phone call or letter from a lawyer would be a nice wake up call to management. Perhaps it would prompt them calm down some of their more zealous range nazis. Shows that you can't push folks around since some of them may push back.



Skip the lawyer for now and YOU write the letter (or call) whoever owns/is really in charge of the range.

Seems you had the situation well under control and I sure as hell don't have any issues with letting a child shoot under the conditions you described.

Let them know CLEARLY that you think it was horseshit.  The crack about "Assault rifle" (which the AR ISN"T ONE) really pisses me off.

While the range may have some rule you broke, the whole thing stinks of "PC"/Nanny/Range Nazi bullshit.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:14:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:17:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:28:01 AM EDT
May this be the worst you have in 2005.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:34:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combatvet:
...I think even though it is private property I will make some phone calls to an attorney friend of mine.



Don't make matters worse by stirring up trouble. If you don't like the rules, find somewhere else to shoot.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:39:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 9:40:29 AM EDT by NoVaGator]
I agree with the RO, but he probably could have handled it better.

I know I wouldn't be too thrilled shooting in the lane next to a 5 yr old with anything other than a .22, regardless of the capabilities of the father.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:46:09 AM EDT
I am glad you are exposing your son to shooting.  I do think the rangemaster should be in charge however.
I was not there so i can't comment on his or your attitude I hope both with polite and professional.
If the range was not real busy maybe you could have asked if the rangemaster would be willing to stand there directly supervising for just a few minutes to see that you in fact where safe and completely in control of the firearm.  Maybe you could have ceased fire for a little bit and had a conversation with the rangemaster and convinced him everything was OK.
Or if not find a new range.

I think if more children shot with there parents the world would be a better place.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:50:36 AM EDT
I have a 4 year old boy now.  I just can't imagine him being ready to operate a firearm in a year.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:53:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 9:54:58 AM EDT by windom]
He had his son on his lap, and was probably helping him aim. Although the RO was just trying to keep an incident from happening, because there are idiots out there that have no clue what they are doing. While he was wrong in calling your rifle an "assault rifle", unless it was FA, you have to remember that most sheeple see something that looks evil and immediately call it an assault weapon/rifle. I wouldn't worry about it too badly. It's their range, and like others have stated, there is nothing much you can do about it. I would suggest finding a new one to teach your son on.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 10:13:10 AM EDT
Man, funny how things turn into a fight on almost every post.

As I was taught in the military, you follow orders first and ask questions later. So the guy told you to leave. Now you review the range policy and see if he is right or not. You are a cop. Follow this in the legal and professional manner you would anything else. If it turns out there is expressly no bylaw stating your 5 yr. old son cannot shoot, then talk to the owner. If it says each individual must retain control of their own weapon then the rangemaster was right.

I know you came here for help and I am sorry you have to take shit just to ask opinions, but I guess that comes with the territory. Calm down and take care of this thing rational. Good luck and let us know what you find out.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 10:29:23 AM EDT
Lets just hope that the RO WASN'T the owner.....
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 10:36:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTacticalSolution:

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Sounds like a certain rangfe here in Houston, TX.



I thought you were going to say, "You should have choked him"



Link Posted: 1/9/2005 10:37:40 AM EDT
and in other news, a man was thrown out of a convenient store because he thought the "No shirt, No Shoes, No Service" sign didn't apply to him.

seriously, though...it's a private range. they should be able to do as they please.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 10:39:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 10:52:50 AM EDT
The range rules were posted but nowhere does it state age limits, or any other rule that I may have violated. I also saw a kid about 12 years old shooting at the pistol range...by himself. The guy that came out and yelled at me is not the owner, so I will follow up after I do talk to the owner. I decided to call my attorney friend at home and ask him what to do. He said he will draft a letter on my behalf just to ask the owner to clarify the rules so future incidents could be avoided. Yes, it is a private range but I am sure the owner does want to keep it open to the public. I am sure the state can shut them down if there are clear violations. I guess I am just pissed off and ranting right now and yes I do like the free donuts that my badge brings.
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