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Posted: 1/8/2005 8:27:15 PM EDT
story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&e=1&u=/chitribts/mysteriousjettiedtotortureflights

Seems like the CIA is using a Gulfstream registered to a dummy corporation to fly al-qaida terror suspects to countries that are less PC in dealing with war situations. This process is called "rendition"; frankly its turning terrorists over to folks who will torture them and then pass along the intell.

Yea or nay to this?

Or, should we even know about it?

And who are these people spotting the aircraft and logging their trips? Don't they know/care they are helping out our enemy?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:30:05 PM EDT
As long as they make every effort to make sure they've got the right bad guys, it doesn't really bother me too much.

Bu the second they start rounding up innoncent dutch danish legal residents in the U.S., then it'll bother me  
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:31:30 PM EDT
i dont need to know.
so long as they got the right guys.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:32:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PrivateJoker:
i dont need to know.
so long as they got the right guys.



If you dont know, how do you know who they have? Or if they have the right guys at all?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:33:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:33:55 PM EDT
"Don't ask - don't tell".

Learn it.
Know it.
Live it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:35:45 PM EDT
What flights?  
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:37:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CWO:
"Don't ask - don't tell".

Learn it.
Know it.
Live it.



Uhhh...

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:38:37 PM EDT
This sort of thing has been done for years (maybe not with that specific aircraft) and most people on this board have commented on it in the past.

It's only news to those reporters who need something anti-Bush to shriek about now that the armor thing has gone stale.

To answer your second question, people are fucking stupid and always feel the urge to know about stuff they shouldn't know about.  Stupid behavior ensues when they act on these urges, as they inevitably do.

Things are secret because most people seldom need to know everything that the US government is doing in the world at every instant.  Telling everyone would be somewhat counterproductive to the idea of keeping a secret and thus keeping the advantages that information brings.  You are in the 10% of the population of this country that understands that.  Most people don't.

It comes down to the same reason why people bitch about the President when they don't have 1/10 of the information he does.  Self-importance.  They, for some inexplicable reason, think they are more qualified to do the job.  They also think they deserve to know everything about everything even though they probably wouldn't understand the intricacies of it and couldn't keep their mouths shut about it for longer than a fraction of a second anyway.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:41:26 PM EDT
Good for them. Hopefully they do a bit of rough interrogation themselves. In my opinion this, like all other information about the intimate details of military operations and wars in general should be regulated, if released at all.

War is not a game. It should not have play by play footage broadcast live into American homes. It seems to me that the average person is not the same as the kind of people that fight wars. Giving the press a blank check to report whatever they want is an invitation to have the worst infomation possible fed to the people who are least able to deal with it.

There is nothing happening today that hasn't happened in previous wars. The difference is that today, the media is able to report whatever they want, however they want. During WWII, nobody in the United States saw footage of Marines cutting gold teeth from the mouths of dead and dying Japanese soldiers, and there were no broadcasts of submarine sailors using machineguns to kill survivers of sunk Japanese troop ships. These things happened, as they do in all wars. That is how war is. It is an ugly thing that few who haven't participated in truly understand. The American public doesn't need to know anything more than that we are winning. The means that are used to reach that goal will never be fully understood by the majority of the public, and broadcasting footage of it only serves to create a bad impression of American troops, which I suspect, is the goal of most journalists.  
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:45:41 PM EDT
A Ok, as long as they don't give them any peanuts for the flight over  
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:47:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By PrivateJoker:
i dont need to know.
so long as they got the right guys.



If you dont know, how do you know who they have? Or if they have the right guys at all?



Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:52:47 PM EDT

how much should we know?


0
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:56:53 PM EDT
The press will whine if we drop bad guys off in Egypt for "energetic" interrogation to learn of future terrorist acts, and they will whine if something bad happens because we didn't learn about it in advance.  You can't win with these guys - f*ck them.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:58:09 PM EDT
I could care less
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:00:00 PM EDT
This is what I call some good "out-sourcing"! I have no problem with it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:01:47 PM EDT

To answer your second question, people are fucking stupid and always feel the urge to know about stuff they shouldn't know about


Like, running to the beach to see the tsunami wave?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:03:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 9:05:05 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
BTW, when I opened this thread and saw the word "torture flights", I expected something a bit Vietnam'ish. I have heard stories (and confirmed at least one through a Marine Force Recon guy who I know was there) that some CIA operators used to take VC prisoners up in Hueys and if they didn't tell them what they wanted to hear, would dump them out the cargo doors. He said it was a weird sight seeing a black pajama clad man falling a couple thousand feet through the air.

If what we do now freaks out the bleeding hearts, they'd die if they knew some of things we have done in the past.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:13:05 PM EDT
the classical administer pain  or tremendous fear torture isn't nearly as effective as trickery and befriending a subject....
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:27:25 PM EDT
All I care to know is that they opened the doors in the back of the C-130/C-17 somewhere over the Atlantic or Indian Ocean at 10,000 ft and that some sharks had a good meal.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:34:23 PM EDT
Yea its no big deal for now because we're at war and they are the enemy. But someday, it will be acceptable to do this to American citizens. It's in the fine print of the patriot act for sure.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:35:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
All I care to know is that they opened the doors in the back of the C-130/C-17 somewhere over the Atlantic or Indian Ocean at 10,000 ft and that some sharks had a good meal.



Is that like half a helicopter ride?






Why waste so much of the taxpayers money on jet fuel and manpower. I think a helicopter would save $$.


Just shoot them. Not all of them, just "them." You know who I'm talking about.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:35:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&e=1&u=/chitribts/mysteriousjettiedtotortureflights

Seems like the CIA is using a Gulfstream registered to a dummy corporation to fly al-qaida terror suspects to countries that are less PC in dealing with war situations. This process is called "rendition"; frankly its turning terrorists over to folks who will torture them and then pass along the intell.

Yea or nay to this?

Or, should we even know about it?

And who are these people spotting the aircraft and logging their trips? Don't they know/care they are helping out our enemy?



I'd like to know about it.

Here is one.. the C.I.A. can not legaly spy on domestic citizens.. so they ask the British to do it.  
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:36:49 PM EDT
I don't care. If they've got the right guy and it saves one Marine/Sailor/Soldiers life,

Red is positive and Black is negative!

Ben
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:36:52 PM EDT
Interesting scenario, eodtech2000...

Ethical question: If you were say a loadmster on such a hypothetical C-130/C-17, the CIA guys aked you to open the ramp at 10,000 feet and chucked a couple of terrs out the door, what should your proper reaction be?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:40:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
There were no broadcasts of submarine sailors using machineguns to kill survivers of sunk Japanese troop ships.  



What about "NO vacancy" do you not understand!  
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:45:56 PM EDT
If someone from their fucked up counrty wants to bomb ours, and they won't give him up, they can

take whatevery torture they have comming!



WELCOME TO WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And the Libs in the Media that have no idea what the fuck is going on don't even need to be in iraq!!!

If you don't like the way things are in the US, get the fuck out!
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:46:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
Interesting scenario, eodtech2000...

Ethical question: If you were say a loadmster on such a hypothetical C-130/C-17, the CIA guys aked you to open the ramp at 10,000 feet and chucked a couple of terrs out the door, what should your proper reaction be?



WWWWHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWW­WWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEE! YOU BOYS ARE GOING FOR A RIDE! YEEEHAW!

Ben(the cowboy) Texan
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:50:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Neutral_Observer:
This sort of thing has been done for years (maybe not with that specific aircraft) and most people on this board have commented on it in the past.

It's only news to those reporters who need something anti-Bush to shriek about now that the armor thing has gone stale.

To answer your second question, people are fucking stupid and always feel the urge to know about stuff they shouldn't know about.  Stupid behavior ensues when they act on these urges, as they inevitably do.

Things are secret because most people seldom need to know everything that the US government is doing in the world at every instant.  Telling everyone would be somewhat counterproductive to the idea of keeping a secret and thus keeping the advantages that information brings.  You are in the 10% of the population of this country that understands that.  Most people don't.

It comes down to the same reason why people bitch about the President when they don't have 1/10 of the information he does.  Self-importance.  They, for some inexplicable reason, think they are more qualified to do the job.  They also think they deserve to know everything about everything even though they probably wouldn't understand the intricacies of it and couldn't keep their mouths shut about it for longer than a fraction of a second anyway.



Well said.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:52:43 PM EDT
just fine with me,,,you know threatening one with a quick death ie. bullet to the brain housing group sure beats a long fall etc. thats the differance,,should have a pool of piranas etc..or better yet a slow dip into a vet of acid....if the liberal traitors don't like it they can stand in for the TERRORIST,,and give the terrorist 9 lives,,lives of liberal(socialists) then his would go after. see how many lib's volunteer,,hel you see how fast they line up to serve US!
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:12:05 PM EDT
I just wish we could do it ourselves instead of having let others do it for us.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:44:36 PM EDT
I say buy them a bigger jet or at least two more gulf streams,we don't don't want a back log of terriosts being transported
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:57:55 PM EDT
See nothing
Hear nothing
Know nothing

LIVE LONG TIME!
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:04:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
BTW, when I opened this thread and saw the word "torture flights", I expected something a bit Vietnam'ish. I have heard stories (and confirmed at least one through a Marine Force Recon guy who I know was there) that some CIA operators used to take VC prisoners up in Hueys and if they didn't tell them what they wanted to hear, would dump them out the cargo doors. He said it was a weird sight seeing a black pajama clad man falling a couple thousand feet through the air.

If what we do now freaks out the bleeding hearts, they'd die if they knew some of things we have done in the past.



The Koreans did one better than this, they would take up two or more and throw one out before the questions began just to set the pace of things.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:15:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 11:15:40 PM EDT by soowah]
I don't want to know what they are doing (details) just that they are doing it........

As far as the media goes, shouldnt be there anyway. War is managed chaos, and when you have too many Chiefs trying to run the tribe the Calvary sneeks in the treeline and wipes everyone out.......
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:25:59 PM EDT
Personally I have no problem with it all. In my mind's fantasies I'd love to see a scene out of one of the Hannibal movies where the swine eat the terrorist in front of the others.................... bet you'd get some intel fast
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:40:06 PM EDT
and you people have the audasity to call someone else "un American"

May just as well set saddam free and pay him. be the same fuking thing.

Chris
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:42:03 PM EDT
Hmmmmmmmmm
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:43:12 AM EDT
bump
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:50:10 AM EDT
I'm cool with it.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:59:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:03:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:
I do beleive that Bill Clinton originally authorized this.  I believe I heard about it on the radio.



is that supposed to make it ok?

Chris
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:03:43 AM EDT
Call me 'Sergeant Schultz'!
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:05:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
Call me 'Sergeant Schultz'!



+1 "I know nothing... noth-ing!!"  LOL
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:15:05 AM EDT
StormSurge,

Did you also find a link for those seeking employment?

I'm available.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:16:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
Interesting scenario, eodtech2000...

Ethical question: If you were say a loadmster on such a hypothetical C-130/C-17, the CIA guys aked you to open the ramp at 10,000 feet and chucked a couple of terrs out the door, what should your proper reaction be?



"No! There's no way I'm giving one of those assholes an air bottle so they'll be conscious when they hit the ground!"




Personally, I don't see a problem with any of this. Let's say Boris the Chechen has committed atrocities in Russia, was involved in that Theater thing, blew up some busses of schoolkids, etc. Say we catch him in Afghanistan helping the Taliban or something.

We got three choices:

A) send him to gitmo and announce to the world we captured him
B) shoot, shovel, shut up
C) "Excuse me, Mr. Putin? Yah..we got Boris here. No, we didn't tell anyone we captured him. No, no problem forking him over to you..and no, we won't let anyone know about that, either."

Option C) is sounding pretty good to me. In fact, let Boris hear that exchange. Guarantee he'll flip on whomever faster than a $5 hooker if he thinks it'll stop him from going to the people that want his ass. Pump him for info...THEN send him off to the Motherland with a hearty "Dosvidania, Comrade!".
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 12:54:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NightWatchman:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
BTW, when I opened this thread and saw the word "torture flights", I expected something a bit Vietnam'ish. I have heard stories (and confirmed at least one through a Marine Force Recon guy who I know was there) that some CIA operators used to take VC prisoners up in Hueys and if they didn't tell them what they wanted to hear, would dump them out the cargo doors. He said it was a weird sight seeing a black pajama clad man falling a couple thousand feet through the air.

If what we do now freaks out the bleeding hearts, they'd die if they knew some of things we have done in the past.



The Koreans did one better than this, they would take up two or more and throw one out before the questions began just to set the pace of things.



Story time.

During one operation, in which the objective was to find and capture/kill an NVA general, a LRRP team took two prisoners, an elderly Vietnamese man and a younger Vietnamese man.  They were picked up in a helicopter for interrogation; two individuals came along with the helicopter to begin their interrogation on the flight back, as speedy interrogation is important, and they also had the above in mind.

One of the individuals began asking the younger man the whereabouts of the general, which the younger man refused to answer.  The elderly man was then tossed out of the helicopter, in an effort to get the younger man to talk.  After the elderly man was ejected from the aircraft, fear was evident in the younger man's eyes.  Success!  He would talk now!

They repeated the question about the whereabouts of the general.  In response, the frightened young man pointed out the door of the helicopter with his chin.

The two individuals abandoned this interrogation technique shortly thereafter.  
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 12:59:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
Interesting scenario, eodtech2000...

Ethical question: If you were say a loadmster on such a hypothetical C-130/C-17, the CIA guys aked you to open the ramp at 10,000 feet and chucked a couple of terrs out the door, what should your proper reaction be?


Do you use the pallet loading system or do it by hand?  Hmmm, interesting question.

Kharn
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 1:04:24 PM EDT
should we know? if the CIA was competent there'd never even be suspicious rumors about whether or not it might be happening

just remember this. what they do now is practice for when they decide gun owners are terrorists
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 1:13:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 1:19:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By virginia22:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
I do beleive that Bill Clinton originally authorized this.  I believe I heard about it on the radio.



is that supposed to make it ok?

Chris



Did I say it was ok?  Did I say it wasn't ok?  Did I make any judgement whatsoever on the situation.



it was a question dig dug, I didn't say one way or the other. just asked a question.

Chris
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