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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:05:45 PM EDT
I contacted someone who does CCW cources in WI and he told me it will for sure qualify me for a MN or FL CCW permit.

Can anyone with either of these tell me what the shooting requirements are?

I am NOT a great shot, but I put my bullets close to the target. Once in awhile my bullets miss the paper target at 15 yards I belive is where McMiller in WI has one of the distances. between 10-15 yards is where the target goes.

I want to practice since I have not been to the range in almost 4 months before I take a course like this.

I'm very new to this idea and do not know the best of it. But he is pretty sure that this would qualify for WI as well. He said it is AACFI certified.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:50:18 PM EDT
anyone?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:59:35 PM EDT
Only advice I can give is to practice more. If you are going to be carrying, then you need to know where all your shots are going to be going. You are responsible for every shot that comes out of your firearm, and if one hits anything other than the bad guy you are in big trouble.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:01:15 PM EDT
Did you serve in the military? Florida considers a DD214 as qualifying for the shooting.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:02:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 9:03:47 PM EDT by Colt_SBR]
I would suggest, take a basic shooting class prior to the CCW class. After the basic class, practice, practice, practice.

Good luck and hope you never have to use your CCW.

BTW

<<<<<<<<<<<<--------------------------------- 3900.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:26:38 PM EDT
I hope i never have to actually use my ccw.

I tried to go into the military but was denied do to my lung surgeries :(

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:28:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I hope i never have to actually use my ccw.

I tried to go into the military but was denied do to my lung surgeries :(




Some stats let you use any gun to qualify -- so use a 22lr if you can.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:29:13 PM EDT
I only have a glock 26. I am confident with this firearm, and I would not want to qualify with something I wouldn't be using. I wouldn't personaly know if I would be good enough to pass then.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:35:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Luxan:
Once in awhile my bullets miss the paper target at 15 yards



To be blunt - If you are missing the target at 15 yards you have no business carrying a concealed weapon.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:36:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 9:38:32 PM EDT by Luxan]
with both hands I always hit the target. but will I have to fire with only one hand for it? I should have stated with one hand I can miss the paper sometimes.

I don't seem to shoot much worse then other people. Just not great? when I was talking to bill he seemed to think my skill was adequate?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:40:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLGreg:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
Once in awhile my bullets miss the paper target at 15 yards



To be blunt - If you are missing the target at 15 yards you have no business carrying a concealed weapon.



I've seen PD officers miss at 15yds.

I would however be at the range more and practice as much as possible. You are only hurting yourself (for now) by not bringing your skill matrix up.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:41:16 PM EDT
I don't think I'll have the money for at least a month or two. So that should give me some more time to hit the range once a week or so I hope.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:44:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Luxan:
with both hands I always hit the target. but will I have to fire with only one hand for it? I should have stated with one hand I can miss the paper sometimes.

I don't seem to shoot much worse then other people. Just not great? when I was talking to bill he seemed to think my skill was adequate?



I dont know about your state, but you should be shooting the course of fire 2 handed. I cant think of any state offhand that shoot it one handed or even weak side.

Maybe Packing.org will clarify your test requirements better.

Packing.org
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:45:08 PM EDT
I am glad to hear that. I am a pretty bad shot with my weak hand.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:04:48 PM EDT
In my CCW class we had people who could not load their magazine, or their revolver. We shot at ridiculously close ranges and there were no requirements other than to shoot 50 rounds.

At the closest range the muzzle blast from my .40 S&W blew the target up so far that I had to wait for it to settle back down before shooting again.

Other than the legal issues regarding CCW the entire class was a joke. I just loaded and shot 50 rounds and left the range before someone could "accidentally" shoot me.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:06:09 PM EDT
OMG that is scary!

At least I know if I went there I would not have to worry about thorwing away 150 dollars and not pass
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:33:36 PM EDT
does anyone else here who has taken a ccw course wish to be more specific on the target size and target requirements?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:19:47 PM EDT
For the class I took in Florida for a Florida CWP the targets were 8.5 x 11 sheets of paper at 3 and 7 yards. I don't know how they scored. I shot a few magazines at the paper and passed (all my shots hit the paper). I believe the instructor was more concerned about safety that accuracy, muzzle and trigger finger discipline, dropping mag and showing clear when finished.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:21:03 PM EDT
can you explain the dropping mag part more? I know how to switch magazines but did you have to let it hit the floor for the class? Just wondering.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:44:51 PM EDT
I don't know about WI, but I (not a great shot) could probably pass the NC requirements with my eyes closed.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 2:20:45 AM EDT
Qualification standards, if any, vary by state. In my state of Virginia AFAIK there is no shooting standard at all.

You might do better posting this in the Hometown forum for your state. You also might want to try the packing.org Wisconsen forum here: www.packing.org/community/stateview/?statepk=51

I see lots of folks at our local range who have trouble keeping all their bullets in a smaller target at 15 yards. I doubt you’re as bad as you think.

Or – to put another way – I think you’ll find many people are much worse than you.

Still, improving your skill is always a good idea. Assuming you’re careful enough to do it safely, dry fire can really help develop your skills.

Good luck!!
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 2:31:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Luxan:
can you explain the dropping mag part more? I know how to switch magazines but did you have to let it hit the floor for the class? Just wondering.


I can’t speak for c-wheeler of course, but I suspect he meant simply removing the mag during the clearing of your pistol by dropping it into your hand.

During LEO or tactical type training actually dropping a mag on the ground is pretty standard, but I wouldn't think it’d be part of a basic CCW course.

Just my guess, of course.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 3:21:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FLGreg:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
Once in awhile my bullets miss the paper target at 15 yards



To be blunt - If you are missing the target at 15 yards you have no business carrying a concealed weapon.



Our local cops fired 40+ rounds at a suspect recently hitting him zero times. Guess its back to billy clubs for them.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:03:28 AM EDT
I have gone through MN CCW training. The shooting part is up to the individual instructor, the (at least law that was in effect then) didn't prescribe an exact course of fire, it simply mentioned that "a test showing proficiency with a pistol" was required.

My instructor chose a 30 round CoF, broken down like this:

6 rounds 5 yards both hands
6 rounds 5 yards strong hand
6 rounds 10 yards both hands
6 rounds 10 yards strong hand
6 rounds 20 yards both hands

I think you had to score something like 70% on an FBI sillouhette target (don't remember the exact scoring, 5 points per shot, down a point per ring or something like that).

I thought the 20 yards was kind of a stretch for a CCW course, but whatever. I scored 147/150 BTW

You could shoot whatever pistol you wanted. A couple taking the course shot some sort of .22 I shot my P220. Others shot revolvers.

One guy out of my class of 30 failed the shooting qualification. He had borrowed a compact glock (think it was a 19 - 9mm) from a buddy, and couldn't even hit the paper past 5 yards. The instructor allowed him to spend some time on the range and retake the shooting portion a week later.

He was a scary individual. He was a deer hunter from Wisconsin, and some of the questions he was asking made me think he was taking the class for all the wrong reasons ("can I draw to scare a guy" "can I just shoot them in the arm/leg?" questions of that sort. I don't think he had shot a pistol more than twice in his life.

Personally I would rather have someone carrying a CCW that isn't an IPSC/IDPA master that has a good grasp on the responsibilities of carrying than an expert shooter that's a hothead that wants to draw down every opportunityhe gets.

Anyway, the shooting qualification is nothing to sweat if you have shot a pistol and are semiproficient with it. If the above CoF scares you, spend some time at the range. You should anyway
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:11:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 6:18:47 AM EDT by Dolomite]
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firearmstrng.com firearmstrng.com firearmstrng.com firearmstrng.com firearmstrng.com firearmstrng.com

You know where you're going to find a place to take LFI-1 for $300 less than anywhere else in the country?

Nowhere.

You've got less than a few weeks to take advantage of this deal and you will be goddamn sorry if you don't.

Read this article from the ultra-liberal Boston Phoenix about this class (the 4 day course has changed a little, but you'll get the jist of it as the writer begins to come around to the right way of thinking):
weeklywire.com/ww/11-29-99/boston_feature_1.html

Get your LFI-1 certificate, get a FL non-res permit, carry in 27 states. It's that easy.

If you want to go cheap with someone else besides Masaad Ayoob - that's fine - but I highly doubt any instructor in the mid-west is going to arm you better in terms of the legal knowledge you're going to be immersed in during Ayoob's 20 hour "Judicious Use" lecture. The lecture alone is the kick in the ass most people need.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:21:30 AM EDT
I'm sure this will cause a real "fine print" storm, but here goes. There is NO shooting requirement for the Florida CCW. Yes, I'm reading an old copy, and yes I am willing to be corrected by someone who actually has the official current copy of FL statute, Chapter 790. But, (and please don't take this the wrong way...) I don't want to hear your opinions. I want to see the facts ... in black and friggin white.
Again; There is NO shooting requirement for the Florida CCW. You have to "demonstrate competence..." by "completion of..." and various courses are mentioned. I can find NO MENTION of any standard beyond a reference to demonstrating "competence". I took Ayoob's LFI course back in '86, (BEST $500 I EVER Spent) and even he mentioned that Florida requires "completion" of the course and that nowhere does it mention the word "passing" any course. Depending on your point of view, good or bad, in Florida, you can take a 20 minute written-only test at a gun show and recieve credit towards "competence". That is in no way my recommendation. Practice as much as you can afford. Study. Work with your weapon and challenge yourself. Take Ayoob's course (or another good one) as soon as you can. There will always be better and worse shots than you. Be the best shot you can be. But start now to read the actual text of the law for yourself and to challenge politely any and all opinions. That, by the way, is one of Ayoob's greatest strengths. Good luck. Stay safe
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:33:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 7:38:45 AM EDT by RugerNiner]
Florida.
6 shots slow fire.
6 shots quick fire.
Must be able to hit side of barn at 21 feet.
Size of target was a full size silhouette.
Also I had to take a 2 hr video course.

If you can't get a Florida CCW you shouldn't be handling guns.
By the way, I live in PA and have my Florida license.
PA is good in 8 States.
FL is good in 28 States.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:42:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fast351:
I have gone through MN CCW training. The shooting part is up to the individual instructor, the (at least law that was in effect then) didn't prescribe an exact course of fire, it simply mentioned that "a test showing proficiency with a pistol" was required.

My instructor chose a 30 round CoF, broken down like this:

6 rounds 5 yards both hands
6 rounds 5 yards strong hand
6 rounds 10 yards both hands
6 rounds 10 yards strong hand
6 rounds 20 yards both hands

I think you had to score something like 70% on an FBI sillouhette target (don't remember the exact scoring, 5 points per shot, down a point per ring or something like that).

I thought the 20 yards was kind of a stretch for a CCW course, but whatever. I scored 147/150 BTW

You could shoot whatever pistol you wanted. A couple taking the course shot some sort of .22 I shot my P220. Others shot revolvers.

One guy out of my class of 30 failed the shooting qualification. He had borrowed a compact glock (think it was a 19 - 9mm) from a buddy, and couldn't even hit the paper past 5 yards. The instructor allowed him to spend some time on the range and retake the shooting portion a week later.

He was a scary individual. He was a deer hunter from Wisconsin, and some of the questions he was asking made me think he was taking the class for all the wrong reasons ("can I draw to scare a guy" "can I just shoot them in the arm/leg?" questions of that sort. I don't think he had shot a pistol more than twice in his life.

Personally I would rather have someone carrying a CCW that isn't an IPSC/IDPA master that has a good grasp on the responsibilities of carrying than an expert shooter that's a hothead that wants to draw down every opportunityhe gets.

Anyway, the shooting qualification is nothing to sweat if you have shot a pistol and are semiproficient with it. If the above CoF scares you, spend some time at the range. You should anyway


No time limits either but I said fuck it and did it as fast as I could with my HK. I figured if I failed I shouldn't be carrying. Of course the 2 guys that bought their Ruger mkII with 8" barrels took their sweet ass time. They scored really well but they were also still shooting 30 seconds after I got done with my shooting.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:49:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FLGreg:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
Once in awhile my bullets miss the paper target at 15 yards



To be blunt - If you are missing the target at 15 yards you have no business carrying a concealed weapon.

Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:50:54 AM EDT
Montana is just as bad. All we have to have is proof that we took some sort of firearms training. I used my hunters education card from 18 years ago.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:20:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 8:23:34 AM EDT by photoman]
No one can qualify you for a Wisconsin CCW(when the bill is passed) unless they are a DOJ certified instructor. DOJ has not certified any instructors yet as the bill is not law yet. And even at that it's probably just a matter of registering with the DOJ as an instructor. I didn't read it over that carefuly sorry.

Who is the instructor? What does the class cover? How long is the class? How much does it cost? Know anyone that has taken a class from this person that can tell you thier experiances with this instructor? If it's one of those 4/8 hour classes where ya spend an hour or two on the range and shoot 100 rounds or less it's not worth it IMO. Your not learning a damn thing.

Luxan if yer paying $150 for a CCW class and it's not two days and you don't learn how to fight with yer gun don't take it. It's a rip off.

For $150 you can take the Defensive Edge 1/2 pistol course. Completing it will be more then enough to get a MN or FLA CCW permit. And you will learn to shoot better, and you will learn the basics of fighting with a gun from somone that does it for a living. Yer other option is the place Dolomite gave you, I've not gone through them, but Dolomite seems to be mighty taken with them, and LFI-1 is probably one of the best classes you can take if yer planning on getting a CCW from what I have heard and read.

But hey if you really want to pay somone $150 dollers to get you minimum of what you need to get the permit, I'll do it for you, I'm an NRA certified instructor.

Just kidding on that last part, execpt for the NRA certified instructor part I really am. I'd never run somone through and just cover the minimum of what you need to know, thats a piss poor thing to do.

If your going to take the time to get a CCW and take a class make sure it's a quality class. Not only that but make the commitment to get more training then just that one class and the commitment to practice the skills you learn. Once a month is not good enough IMO. These are degradable skills, if you don't keep working them you will lose them. Anyone who makes the decision to carry a gun for protection needs to be commited to getting training and continue that training through more classes and lots of range time. You owe that not only to yourself, but to anyone who may be around if you need to use that gun. Don't settle for a minimum coverage course when you can get a better one for the same price or a little more.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 10:30:39 AM EDT
William Schmitz <williowen@voyager.net> this is his email address. It looks like most of the classes are in Milwaukee and Appleton. He said this

Keep in mind, that at this point, there is no one who is currently certified for Wisconsin.

AACFI’s class is accepted in several states, as am I, to instruct.

My personal and consistent promise to my students is: If the WPPA is passed this session; if there are updates needed to qualify for the WI permit, I will pass those updates on to my alumni at my materials cost.

I do hope that I have adequately answered your questions.


He seems like a nice person, and I like how his class is set up from what he told me.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 10:52:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 10:57:27 AM EDT by FLGreg]

Originally Posted By soowah:

Originally Posted By FLGreg:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
Once in awhile my bullets miss the paper target at 15 yards



To be blunt - If you are missing the target at 15 yards you have no business carrying a concealed weapon.



I've seen PD officers miss at 15yds.



Like I said, some people have no business carrying a firearm. The majority of LEO's are the worse shots ever. Other than the annual requirement to qualify with their weapon, they seldom shoot.

A few years ago the weapons instructor for a local SWAT team observed an IDPA match I was at. He said that he ought to make it mandatory for the officers on his department to attend IDPA matches. We've had many cops come shoot with us. Very few come back after the first time once they realize how inadequate their marksmen skills are. Many do not like getting shown up by "mere civilians". So as not be accused of cop bashing, some of the best shooters I've ever seen were LEO's but as a whole they are more of a liability than an asset.

There is no shooting test requirement for a FL Concealed Weapons License. I've got a hard copy of Chapter 790 right here as I just renewed my license. All you need to do is "demonstrate competence with a firearm by any one of the following:..." and it goes to list a whole bunch of ways to do that - Hunter Safety Course, NRA class, police or military service, ect.

ETA: Now there might be a shooting requirement to get your certificate from these "classes". I used my Hunter's Safety Course card that I took when I was a boy scout to satisfy my requirement.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:05:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 11:12:10 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Luxan:
William Schmitz <williowen@voyager.net> this is his email address. It looks like most of the classes are in Milwaukee and Appleton. He said this

Keep in mind, that at this point, there is no one who is currently certified for Wisconsin.

AACFI’s class is accepted in several states, as am I, to instruct.

My personal and consistent promise to my students is: If the WPPA is passed this session; if there are updates needed to qualify for the WI permit, I will pass those updates on to my alumni at my materials cost.

I do hope that I have adequately answered your questions.


He seems like a nice person, and I like how his class is set up from what he told me.



Do you have a class outline or something you could share with us, I'd like to see it. How long is the class? how much range time Vs "classroom" time. What is he teaching on the range? Lots of things left un answered.

A couple other things, whats his background? Where is his experiance comming from? Who trained him?

Part of why I haven't taught any classes as of yet is because I don't feel I have enough experiance to. Not teaching experiance, but real world BTDT experiance. I could teach some classes on geting out of a active shooter situation when you don't have a gun, I've BTDT more then once. I'd have a hard with somone telling me to do this or that if they have never been in that situation because they have no real world basis for thier recomendations.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:26:51 AM EDT
Lux,

IM inbound.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:44:27 AM EDT
Photoman knows what he's talking about. We have trained from the same organization.
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