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5/18/2018 7:39:40 PM
Posted: 3/11/2005 8:57:20 PM EDT
Ok, I'm 21 now and I want to CCW, but I'm a poor college student. The only handgun I have is a P22 I got for my 21st birthday. I've been looking around and there seems to be some potent self-defense rounds for .22LR. I know that .22 isn't much, but it's better than nothing and I really can't afford to get anything else, maybe eventually I could afford a Makarov or something, but this is it. Should I use the P22? or just give up on the idea?
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 8:59:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2005 9:00:07 PM EDT by Palo_Duro]
You're better off with barbed comments.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:01:23 PM EDT
so I should just give up the idea of CCW for now?
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:02:24 PM EDT
I'm in the same boat and trust me, if you REALLY wanted to afford it, you could.

Switch from Budweiser to Beast, kb to shwag, whatever it is you must do.

Check out the gunshows and pick up a centerfire.

If you just cannot do this, use CCI stingers.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:04:11 PM EDT
Get something that doesn't have sharp corners. Easier on you when some big fucker shoves it sideways up your ass.

I can hear some commenting already that statistics show that more people are killed by .22's that any other weapon, but I certainly wont rely on mine. Give me something larger than .30 caliber please, and usually something in the .45 flavor.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:06:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
so I should just give up the idea of CCW for now?



When I was in Airborne School, there was a story floating around about a blackhat who got shot multiple times by his estranged wife. The weapon she used was a .22

He got up and kicked her ass.

Spring for something better or carry a knife.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:07:52 PM EDT
If you live on campus then you might end up getting yourself into more trouble than it's worth.

If not, then it'd be worth it just to have the CCW.

You should be carrying something bigger than a .22 though. Makarov's are cheap (as you noted), but CZ52's are cheaper. AIM surplus has them for like $75 bucks. Then again, if you can't aford a Makarov, what are the chances someone's gonna rob you?
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:09:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Then again, if you can't aford a Makarov, what are the chances someone's gonna rob you?



Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:09:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
so I should just give up the idea of CCW for now?



When I was in Airborne School, there was a story floating around about a blackhat who got shot multiple times by his estranged wife. The weapon she used was a .22

He got up and kicked her ass.

Spring for something better or carry a knife.



There was also a lady serial killer in Florida who offed all of her victim's with .22's.

Oh, and .22's have killed more Mobsters than anything else except maybe piano wire.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:10:04 PM EDT
A P-22 is better than nothing. Much better. Get some Stingers and pack what you have.

However, I am living proof that money can ALWAYS be found for guns.

Don't let people here talk you out of concealed carry because your gun isn't big enough. It is still a gun, and will still kill someone. It isn't the best choice, but it beats walking around on credit hoping that noone will bother you.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:10:19 PM EDT
Put 500 rounds a week through that shooter while training to make headshots exclusively. If you can't afford to shoot 500 rds of 22LR a week then you need to make some adjustments in your lifestyle.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:11:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
so I should just give up the idea of CCW for now?



When I was in Airborne School, there was a story floating around about a blackhat who got shot multiple times by his estranged wife. The weapon she used was a .22

He got up and kicked her ass.

Spring for something better or carry a knife.



There was also a lady serial killer in Florida who offed all of her victim's with .22's.

Oh, and .22's have killed more Mobsters than anything else except maybe piano wire.



Hardly a comparrison, Steve.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:11:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
so I should just give up the idea of CCW for now?



When I was in Airborne School, there was a story floating around about a blackhat who got shot multiple times by his estranged wife. The weapon she used was a .22

He got up and kicked her ass.

Spring for something better or carry a knife.


Maybe I could compromise and carry the .22 and carry a knife?
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:11:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2005 9:12:50 PM EDT by jeager001]
Get a glock.
You should be able to snag one for about $400-$450, new. Quality weapon for a very reasonable price. Also exercising the spending discipline necessary to buy the gun will allow you to make sure you have ammo money so you can go practice like you should after you get it.

ETA: It will be worth saving up for it. I know with the weapons I get it always is.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:12:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
so I should just give up the idea of CCW for now?



When I was in Airborne School, there was a story floating around about a blackhat who got shot multiple times by his estranged wife. The weapon she used was a .22

He got up and kicked her ass.

Spring for something better or carry a knife.



There was also a lady serial killer in Florida who offed all of her victim's with .22's.

Oh, and .22's have killed more Mobsters than anything else except maybe piano wire.



Hardly a comparrison, Steve.



Don't pay any attention to me. I'm just being an argumentative prick.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:14:34 PM EDT
Oh yea, what would you think about selling the P22 and getting a 38 revolver or the Mak?
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:16:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2005 9:17:29 PM EDT by Zack3g]
Shot placement. Practice. A .22 will kill someone just like any other gun will. Just gotta be a better aim to do it, that's all. Practice Practice Practice.


Edit: Practice of course, in hope that you never have to actually use the .22 to defend yourself. But, if that does happen, best to be prepared to use what you have available to you. It's better than throwing rocks. Somewhat.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:21:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
I can hear some commenting already that statistics show that more people are killed by .22's that any other weapon, but I certainly wont rely on mine.



"Killed" doesn't mean squat. CCW is useless if it can't stop an attacker.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:23:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Maddogkiller:
Put 500 rounds a week through that shooter while training to make headshots exclusively. If you can't afford to shoot 500 rds of 22LR a week then you need to make some adjustments in your lifestyle.



So far I'm alloting myself 2 500 round bricks a month for training. I practice failure drills, 2 COM 1 head, FTE drills, reloads both stationary and while moving at various ranges from 4 to 15 yards and I already carry a small kershaw auto knife that was given to me years ago. I'd also keep my shotgun in my car if I didn't spend so much time on campus and don't need someone seeing and calling the cops on me. The Makarovs are looking good to me, small compact, do-or-die reliable(at least all the ones I've seen) and I can get them local for 150 bucks. I'm sure that I'll be able to afford one eventually, I guess I should change my question to should I use the P22(along with my auto knife) until I get the Makarov?
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:26:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jeager001:
Get a glock.
You should be able to snag one for about $400-$450, new. Quality weapon for a very reasonable price. Also exercising the spending discipline necessary to buy the gun will allow you to make sure you have ammo money so you can go practice like you should after you get it.

ETA: It will be worth saving up for it. I know with the weapons I get it always is.



I've not liked the glocks I've shot, they don't fit my hand well at all. I've even had one KB on me, not wanting to start that can of worms. I'm just not a glock fan. Sorry.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:27:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By svi40:
Oh yea, what would you think about selling the P22 and getting a 38 revolver or the Mak?



Well the problem there is, I don't want to sell my guns I had to work hard to get them and I want to keep them, plus I really like the P22, it's a great little gun, another problem is it was a gift so it's not exactly nice to take a gift sell it and buy something else. So I don't really consider it an option.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:32:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
I can hear some commenting already that statistics show that more people are killed by .22's that any other weapon, but I certainly wont rely on mine.



"Killed" doesn't mean squat. CCW is useless if it can't stop an attacker.

True, but a .22 in your hand is going to have a better chance of stopping someone than a palm full of air and a sad look. Carrying a knife as a last ditch backup isn't a bad idea, but choosing a knife over a gun for defense is like choosing the Boy Scouts to launch an amphibious invasion. If you are going to be at contact distance, jam the .22 into his head, face, eye socket, ear, mouth, sternum, nutsack, etc. and shoot him.

Granted, the .22 isn't likely to help if someone else goes on a rampage, or is really dedicated to killing you, but it sure as hell ain't gonna hurt anything either.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 10:07:48 PM EDT
While it’s certainly not a great choice for CCW, it’s far better than nothing.

If you doubt that, track down and take a look at the old press video of Hinkley trying to assassinate President Reagan. He used a .22 LR revolver to put Press Secretary Brady, a DC policeman, and a Secret Service agent on the ground. And he very nearly killed Reagan with it.

I’ve also seen a really unpleasant dash cam video showing a (IIRC) NC trooper putting maybe three .357 Magnum’s into a bad guy who ultimately survived, while the bad guy put a single .25 ACP (ballistic equivalent of a .22 LR) into the trooper, who died.

The key IMHO is making multiple fast, accurate headshots (though both Regan and the SS agent received center mass shots – as did the trooper I mentioned above).

Frankly, learn how to use it well, throw in some knowledge of tactics and survival mindset, and I’ll put my money on you over some gang banger with a Glock!

Plus, simply sticking a handgun in the face of someone trying to harm you may succeed in stopping things without having to pull a trigger.

When selecting a carry round, I’d worry about reliability first. Just a guess, but I suspect (despite what I read in gun rags) that your best bet is a heavy HV bullet that isn’t a hollowpoint. You want penetration.

All of the above notwithstanding, you do want to get a larger caliber handgun as soon as you can afford it.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 10:44:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By Maddogkiller:
Put 500 rounds a week through that shooter while training to make headshots exclusively. If you can't afford to shoot 500 rds of 22LR a week then you need to make some adjustments in your lifestyle.



So far I'm alloting myself 2 500 round bricks a month for training. I practice failure drills, 2 COM 1 head, FTE drills, reloads both stationary and while moving at various ranges from 4 to 15 yards and I already carry a small kershaw auto knife that was given to me years ago. I'd also keep my shotgun in my car if I didn't spend so much time on campus and don't need someone seeing and calling the cops on me. The Makarovs are looking good to me, small compact, do-or-die reliable(at least all the ones I've seen) and I can get them local for 150 bucks. I'm sure that I'll be able to afford one eventually, I guess I should change my question to should I use the P22(along with my auto knife) until I get the Makarov?



I should have added that you should get a pistol that shoots a larger round at your first opportunity. The above advice was meant as a stop gap measure until a better weapon( for the purpose) could be procured.

BTW, I am a fan of the 45ACP cartridge for CCW.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 10:52:32 PM EDT
yeah, I'm a huge fan of .45ACP and I really like the ergonomics of that P22, makes me think long and hard about the SW99 after I graduate.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 11:14:33 PM EDT
Carry the .22 Most confrontations end without shots fired. Several accurate .22 holes will stop an attacker. Most perps are practical enough that they do not wish to be perforated by even a small bullet. The odds of actually using it are very small, and you will be training yourself for when you can afford something better. Don't let the gun snobs get you down!
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 11:33:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 199:

I’ve also seen a really unpleasant dash cam video showing a (IIRC) NC trooper putting maybe three .357 Magnum’s into a bad guy who ultimately survived, while the bad guy put a single .25 ACP (ballistic equivalent of a .22 LR) into the trooper, who died.




That was the late SC Trooper Mark Coates. He was killed with a single .22 Magnum round into his armpit and heart. He emptied his .357, hitting his attacker 5 times with full power .357 rounds, but none of his shots were into vitals, because of the mans large amount of fat.

This video, more than any other should demonstrate several things. First, Trooper Coates was NOT stopped by the .22 round, even though it penetrated his vitals. After being shot, he then make a very good attempt to kill his attacker, then ran to a safe position and lived long enough for help to arrive.

While I feel that a .22 is better than no gun, I would worry more about the reliability of a rimfire round more than the stopping power. .22 Rimfires(to me) do not have the reliability that I would expect from a defense gun. When I say reliability, I do not mean the weapon, but the ammunition itself.

As far as .25's go, the .25ACP is hardly the defensive equivalent of the .22 Long Rifle. The .25 is more the defensive equivalent of the .22 Short.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 11:37:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 11:38:14 PM EDT
Anything is better than nothing; you point a 22 at me and you'll get the same response if it was a 45.
YMMV
M
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 11:53:37 PM EDT
beats nothing at all.
before I got my 1911 i carried a raven 25 on a daily bases.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 1:34:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
… Trooper Coates was NOT stopped by the .22 round, even though it penetrated his vitals. …


True – but neither IIRC was the bad guy, he stood there soaking up the .357 rounds. Supposedly, barring a strike the brain or spinal cord, no traditional handgun round can guarantee a one-round stop (the FBI Miami-Dade gunfight leaps to mind, of course), and I’m certainly not suggesting that happened here.


…As far as .25's go, the .25ACP is hardly the defensive equivalent of the .22 Long Rifle. The .25 is more the defensive equivalent of the .22 Short….

Many years ago (again IIRC) there was an American Rifleman article which claimed that a .22 LR and a .25 ACP had similar velocities when fired out of the same length (3 inch or so) barrels. Published stats for .22 LR’s are usually out of a rifle barrel, and thus are much higher.


... .22 Rimfires(to me) do not have the reliability that I would expect from a defense gun. When I say reliability, I do not mean the weapon, but the ammunition itself.
….


Agreed. The overall quality of a .22 LR round, especially regarding the priming setup, seems vastly inferior to centerfire rounds. Also, their exposed soft lead bullets don’t seem to feed as reliability as jacketed bullets.

Link Posted: 3/12/2005 1:39:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2005 1:39:56 AM EDT by macro]
Two ways to look at it.....

1 - A .22 is better than a knife
2 - A .22 is just going to piss off a real attacker (unless you double tap from point blank range in thier face)

My personal suggestion...just wait a few months and save your change.....get a few more buck together and get a CCW in a decent caliber.....and get some training.....a person doesnt just go out and buy a gun, carry it....and become instantly safe. Get some real, professional training....you are asking for trouble if you just strap on a CCW and head out into the world as if nothing changed.

ETA - Feel free to IM me with any questions
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 2:07:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Carry the .22 Most confrontations end without shots fired. Several accurate .22 holes will stop an attacker. Most perps are practical enough that they do not wish to be perforated by even a small bullet. The odds of actually using it are very small, and you will be training yourself for when you can afford something better. Don't let the gun snobs get you down!



I carried my P22 for about 2 months till i got my SP101. I used a fobus holster and never felt bad. I had 11 rounds of CC stingers, if that dont work well shit, i should start running. The chances of actually useing it are slim and theres no better practice then a .22 you can get in soooooo much trigger time with sooooo little money.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 2:34:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 3:57:40 AM EDT
If a .22 is all you can get then I would advise a revolver over a pistol. I have found for .22 handguns revolvers are more reliable.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 4:44:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
You guys really need to check the stats. More people are killed by .22 caliber than any other caliber.



True, but there are 2 problems with applying that statistic to self defense:

(1) I imagine that .22LR is the most common caliber used, period. A more useful statistic would be the number killed relative to the number of shootings.

(2) Killing is not the goal. The guy bleeding out several minutes later doesn't mean squat.

I'm certainly not volunteering to get shot with a .22, but I wouldn't trust my life to the reliability of the P22 or the ammunition.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 5:13:46 AM EDT
y'all are gonna piss on me for this, i know, but what's a P22? is that a ruger?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 5:28:13 AM EDT
It's a .22 cal version of the Walther P99.

As for the topic starter, a Makarov can be had pretty cheap. .380 is a bit of an improvement over .22.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 5:52:40 AM EDT
Dont forget that it'll cost atleast 90 bucks to get your CHL in Oregon..and it can take a bleeding long time...and least it seems so...

so you'll have a couple of months to save up....I was broke as hell when I started carrying...and I worked my way up...

Check your local gunshops...You should be able to pick up a decent pistol in a respectable caliber for under a couple hundred dollars...

A guy I work with carries a Glock 17 on duty..and then straps on a P.O.S. Smith and Wesson 2" five shot revolver for concealed carry....He feels comfortable with it...and he only paid a hundred dollars for it...

Link Posted: 3/12/2005 1:16:36 PM EDT
the gander mountain flyer I got in the mail has a beretta .32 for around $250. that's gotta be better than .22
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 1:23:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2005 1:50:42 PM EDT by arowneragain]
I've saw some pretty rough, but still serviceable, .38 or .357 magnum revbolvers for well under $200, sometimes not much over $100.

edit: there's a .38 snubbie in the EE for $100.

Link Posted: 3/12/2005 2:10:01 PM EDT
How about this no brainer....

Sell the P-22 and buy a Mak, holster, 500 rounds of Wolf, a box of Corbon, and a bacon cheeseburger from Wendys.

Seriously, if you are worried about protection, sell the toy and buy a Mak. Donate blood, sperm, kidney, and sell your DVD porn colletction and you could probably splurge and get 1000 rounds of Wolf

Link Posted: 3/12/2005 2:19:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WesDesRat:
Seriously, if you are worried about protection, sell the toy and buy a Mak.



I love my Mak. It was inexpensive, and it has been accurate and reliable. While your .22 is better than nothing, I would not want to have to trust my life to rimfire. And 9x18 makes a much bigger hole than a .22
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 4:39:20 AM EDT
check out CDNN , they have great deals on police trade ins, you can get a glock 9mm for around $300
or a ruger for less

good luck
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:37:56 AM EDT
cut down on food, beer, tobacco, and all of the other useless crap in life and save your cash for a cheap police turn-in glock or something

check out CDNN and aimsurplus for some ~$300 glocks

for the time being, carry the .22lr and LOTs of mags and knives!
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:45:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 9:46:16 AM EDT by Hank_Rearden1]
For what's it worth... I have several handguns, including a glock 30 (45 ACP, compact). However, my choice for daily carrying is my $115 Bulgarian Makerov. The ammo is powerful enough. It's reliable, and compact. But...it's also cheap. If the the situation ever presents itself where I need to use it... I am counting on either needing to discard the weapon or "donate" it to the evidence room.... I would not at all miss the makerov, but I would miss one of my nicer weapons.

For swanky occassions where more formal attire is required however I tend to wear the G30 instead.

Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:46:29 AM EDT
If you need a permit buy that training and permit first.

If you can, shop around for a used recent manufactured .38 special taurus model 85. I have seen these in Gander Mtns used for about $220. That gun and a $15 nemisis pocket holster are a perfect match for college carry, and are the most affordable option for you.

If the new .38 is totally out of the question, buy federal solids. I have seen these go through a rabbit when fired from a .22 pistol. Keep in mind that the .22 is perhaps your worst choice for caliber, so only go this route if you can't raise $250 ($220 for the model 85 used, $15 for the holster, and 100 rounds of ammo--50 for practice all at once, and then 20 at a time from the carry box every few weeks).
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:15:24 AM EDT
Look at trading that .22 for a Kel Tec .32 or.380, you can get them new for 250$ and they are good quality firearms, and BTW i took my CCW class with a S&W .22 auto
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:45:25 AM EDT
Ok, so lets clear up a few things.
1. I don't drink, smoke, or eat out all that much because I'm going to college and have bills to pay.
2. I'm not looking at buying the P22, I already have it.
3. No I'm not going to sell or trade it because it was a gift for my 21st birthday.
4. I'm not wanting this to be a perminate thing, just a temporary solution until I can afford to carry something better. My original question, for those that bothered to read it, was would this P22(which is a walther btw) be a acceptable temporary solution.

Thank you.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 12:10:29 PM EDT
billofrights is correct.

IIRC, per the NRA, like 70% of the time all you need to do is pull the handgun and the perp is off and running.

A .22 is better than a knife or a pointy stick. Pop a knife-weilding lowlife in the face 5 or 6 times with .22 hollowpoints and I'm 100% certain you'll change his mind for him.

I DO advocate getting something a bit more powerful at your earliest convenience.

There are LOTS of people here that truly believe you shouldn't carry anything less than an expensive hand cannon.

A quality 9MM will work. I sometimes even carry a .380-and I own .357, .45ACP, 9MM and .40 as well.
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