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Posted: 2/7/2015 11:05:08 PM EDT
short version
im 18, i want to build a rifle and need a stripped lower receiver, how can i get one legally without legal suspicion ?
long version
i wanted to build an ar15, and after tons of research and searching. i finally bought all my parts and they all came in. The last thing i went to go pick up from my local ffl is my stripped spikes tactical lower receiver that i bought online. I went up there, and they said (what all FFLs should say) that we are sorry, and we are going to have to ship this back because this is considered an "other" and you are not old enough for us to sell you this. I was embarrassed and devastated. so now, i have everything i need, but a lower receiver. What i am asking is that, how do i get one legally and what is the boardline between a star purchase and a gift. My parents wont buy me one, and they dont even want me to have a gun, because they are from jersey, and are also extremely anti gun. I can buy a completed lower, but that would be really expensive, and i also already have every part i need. A family friend of mine, who also has the same last name as me, is pro-gun, and would be willing to buy a lower for me, if i asked him. but, can he do so legally? what if i were to "give him all the parts" and he were to "build the rifle" and then were to gift me the rifle as a whole?. Also, would i be able to legally purchase or aquire a stripped lower from a private seller face to face without going to a FFL, would that be legal.
ive tried looking online and i couldnt find an answer. im 18 and a week old right now, and live in Texas. Any help or advice would be great.
Thank You
Link Posted: 2/7/2015 11:07:19 PM EDT
From a non-FFL or buy a rifle from an FFL and sell all the parts.
Link Posted: 2/7/2015 11:22:10 PM EDT
Not sure about all your questions but what ever you do I'd do it legally. At your age you'd be mincemeat in prison. No reason to take a chance.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 4:27:33 AM EDT
I'm a wee bit past 18 so the age factor doesn't apply, but in AZ, which, like TX is a border state, per the ATF "OTHERS" are not subject to ATF notification requirements of multiple AR purchases nor multiple handgun purchases.

"OTHER" is neither pistol nor rifle.

IOW, find a different FFL and have the FFL in question send it to him. Granted, he may not do it since he thinks he is right and if he has ½ a brain he'll figure out what you're up to. You're screwed because under his interpretation (I assume), he can't transfer an "OTHER" to you since it could be turned into a pistol...for which you must be 21.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 5:17:15 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
I'm a wee bit past 18 so the age factor doesn't apply, but in AZ, which, like TX is a border state, per the ATF "OTHERS" are not subject to ATF notification requirements of multiple AR purchases nor multiple handgun purchases.

"OTHER" is neither pistol nor rifle.

IOW, find a different FFL and have the FFL in question send it to him. Granted, he may not do it since he thinks he is right and if he has ½ a brain he'll figure out what you're up to. You're screwed because under his interpretation (I assume), he can't transfer an "OTHER" to you since it could be turned into a pistol...for which you must be 21.

Good luck.
View Quote

The FFL is correct. A dealer cannot transfer a lower to someone under 21.

Private party is the answer unless he wants to buy a complete rifle from a dealer as suggested above.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 6:30:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2015 6:31:28 AM EDT by KILLERB6]
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
<snip>
The FFL is correct. A dealer cannot transfer a lower to someone under 21.

Private party is the answer unless he wants to buy a complete rifle from a dealer as suggested above.
View Quote


Oh, yea, OP is SOL with respect to a stripped lower.

Funny that the definitions change based on circumstance...and "OTHER" wasn't always restricted to 21+; that' a relatively recent change (last 5 years or something like that).
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 6:49:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2015 6:52:10 AM EDT by Mach]
From the back of the 4473

You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
View Quote


that should answer your gift question, but it must be a real gift, no money or favors exchanged. An honest gift.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 12:03:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
.....IOW, find a different FFL and have the FFL in question send it to him. Granted, he may not do it since he thinks he is right and if he has ½ a brain he'll figure out what you're up to. You're screwed because under his interpretation (I assume), he can't transfer an "OTHER" to you since it could be turned into a pistol...for which you must be 21......
View Quote

Its not the dealers interpretation, its federal law......read the instructions on the 4473.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 12:09:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KILLERB6:.....Funny that the definitions change based on circumstance...and "OTHER" wasn't always restricted to 21+; that' a relatively recent change (last 5 years or something like that).
View Quote

Only if you consider 1968 recent.
Federal law requires the buyer to be at least 21 to buy any firearm from a dealers, then gives an exemption for 18yr olds to buy rifles or shotguns.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 12:20:52 PM EDT
Your going to have to find a used one/second hand. If you can find one on the EE in TX they can mail it to you without going through an FFL(as long as the individual you purchase it from is not an FFL).

My reccomendation is to place a want to buy add on the EE for an in state lower. Explain how you can't buy one from an FFL because of your age but can legally buy one second hand. Someone will probably havr a spare they're willing to sell.

Option B is to order an 80% lower and mill it out. If you don't have the tools to mill it out you can probably find someone in the hometown forums who could help you.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 3:22:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2015 3:25:02 PM EDT by shivamlong]
i might end up having to buy one second hand

nevermind, i just found out what "EE" was

i try looking into there
thanks again for your guys' help
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 3:25:39 PM EDT
Equipment Exchange, the orange button at the top right of page takes you to the EE where you can buy and sell guns and gun parts.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 4:15:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:

Only if you consider 1968 recent.
Federal law requires the buyer to be at least 21 to buy any firearm from a dealers, then gives an exemption for 18yr olds to buy rifles or shotguns.
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:.....Funny that the definitions change based on circumstance...and "OTHER" wasn't always restricted to 21+; that' a relatively recent change (last 5 years or something like that).

Only if you consider 1968 recent.
Federal law requires the buyer to be at least 21 to buy any firearm from a dealers, then gives an exemption for 18yr olds to buy rifles or shotguns.

To be fair while the law didn't change there was no option on the 4473 other than handgun or long gun so a dealers options were pretty limited. Guy buying a pistol gripped shotgun you still had to pick one.

Just goes to show how silly our laws are.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 4:38:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: .....If you can find one on the EE in TX they can mail it to you....
.
View Quote

Nope.
While anyone can mail a rifle or shotgun via USPS, only licensed dealers and manufacturers can mail firearms other than rifles and shotguns. USPS classifies any firearm capable of being concealed on the body the sane as a "handgun", this includes frames and receivers.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 4:49:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shivamlong:
......My parents wont buy me one, and they dont even want me to have a gun, because they are from jersey, and are also extremely anti gun....
View Quote

Honor thy father and thy mother......even if they are from Jersey.
If you live in their house, it's their rules.
Part of being a grown assed man is not lying to grownups to get the toys all men need.
Save your $$$$ once in a place of your own, buy all the guns you want. They will still be here.


A family friend of mine, who also has the same last name as me, is pro-gun, and would be willing to buy a lower for me, if i asked him. but, can he do so legally?
View Quote

That would be a violation of Federal law, a felony. If caught, you and your neighbor will never be able to lawfully possess a firearm again. Google U.S. vs Abramski.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 5:11:35 PM EDT
am i able to privately buy a stripped lower receiver from a texas state resident who is in state and already has the lower

also, what if my cousin were to just give/gift me one of his old lower receivers that he already has had without the exchange of any money.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 5:16:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2015 5:17:33 PM EDT by rocky59]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shivamlong:
am i able to privately buy a stripped lower receiver from a texas state resident who is in state and already has the lower

also, what if my cousin were to just give/gift me one of his old lower receivers that he already has had without the exchange of any money.
View Quote

Your getting real close to some laws you don't want to be on the wrong side of. My suggestion, buy a built rifle and use that lower for whatever you need. Then 3 short years from now, buy a case of beer, and a stripped lower and never have to worry about this again.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 5:21:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By shivamlong:
am i able to privately buy a stripped lower receiver from a texas state resident who is in state and already has the lower
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Originally Posted By shivamlong:
am i able to privately buy a stripped lower receiver from a texas state resident who is in state and already has the lower

Yes.

also, what if my cousin were to just give/gift me one of his old lower receivers that he already has had without the exchange of any money.

Yes. You could even buy it from him if he is a Texas resident.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 5:46:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rocky59:

Your getting real close to some laws you don't want to be on the wrong side of. My suggestion, buy a built rifle and use that lower for whatever you need. Then 3 short years from now, buy a case of beer, and a stripped lower and never have to worry about this again.
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Originally Posted By rocky59:
Originally Posted By shivamlong:
am i able to privately buy a stripped lower receiver from a texas state resident who is in state and already has the lower

also, what if my cousin were to just give/gift me one of his old lower receivers that he already has had without the exchange of any money.

Your getting real close to some laws you don't want to be on the wrong side of. My suggestion, buy a built rifle and use that lower for whatever you need. Then 3 short years from now, buy a case of beer, and a stripped lower and never have to worry about this again.


The law is black and white, nobody needs to stay away from what is legal.

Somebody can legally give him a gift and he can buy one FTF from another Tx resident.

This idea that we must stay away from what is legal is part of the problem
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 8:45:54 PM EDT
DFFL is correct.
The way the federal law is written, no one under 21 can buy a firearm.
It then adds an exception for long arms, defined as shotguns and rifles.

A shotgun is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder. So no PG shotguns under 21.

A receiver is NOT a shotgun or a rifle.
It is an 'other.'
A few years ago someone at BATFE finally noticed what the law said and advised the FFLs no 'other' to under 21.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 6:06:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:

Only if you consider 1968 recent.
Federal law requires the buyer to be at least 21 to buy any firearm from a dealers, then gives an exemption for 18yr olds to buy rifles or shotguns.
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:.....Funny that the definitions change based on circumstance...and "OTHER" wasn't always restricted to 21+; that' a relatively recent change (last 5 years or something like that).

Only if you consider 1968 recent.
Federal law requires the buyer to be at least 21 to buy any firearm from a dealers, then gives an exemption for 18yr olds to buy rifles or shotguns.


Funny. I built my first AR-15 when I was 19. I had no problem buying a stripped lower from an FFL. I don't think "OTHER" even existed back then. They were transferred as either "Long Guns" or "Handguns".
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 6:16:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2015 6:17:25 PM EDT by cc48510]
Couldn't a seller temporarily attach an upper and stock to convert it from "other" to "long gun" and then sell it as a "long gun"? I wonder if it would even have to be able to fire or if just slapping a stock on it would make it a "long gun" forevermore.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 6:21:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By cc48510:


Funny. I built my first AR-15 when I was 19. I had no problem buying a stripped lower from an FFL. I don't think "OTHER" even existed back then. They were transferred as either "Long Guns" or "Handguns".
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Originally Posted By cc48510:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:.....Funny that the definitions change based on circumstance...and "OTHER" wasn't always restricted to 21+; that' a relatively recent change (last 5 years or something like that).

Only if you consider 1968 recent.
Federal law requires the buyer to be at least 21 to buy any firearm from a dealers, then gives an exemption for 18yr olds to buy rifles or shotguns.


Funny. I built my first AR-15 when I was 19. I had no problem buying a stripped lower from an FFL. I don't think "OTHER" even existed back then. They were transferred as either "Long Guns" or "Handguns".

"Other firearm" existed back then (Federal law has defined what is a rifle, shotgun, pistol, frame, etc since 1934), but it wasn't until August 2008 that ATF figured out the Form 4473 didn't match Federal law or ATF regulations.
Prior to the fall of 2008, the only options for the dealer to check on the 4473 were "Handgun", "Long Gun" or "Both"........since relatively few dealers ever bother to read the instructions on the 4473, much less any Federal law or ATF regulations they were ignorant of how the transfer of frames and receivers were to be treated. Most just asked the customer "Whatta ya gonna build?"

Even today you see dealers arguing that complete AR lowers with buttstock are "Long Guns" or that Pistol Grip Only shotguns are Long Guns. All they need to do is read the damn instructions to Que 18.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 6:27:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By cc48510:
Couldn't a seller temporarily attach an upper and stock to convert it from "other" to "long gun" and then sell it as a "long gun"?.....
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Originally Posted By cc48510:
Couldn't a seller temporarily attach an upper and stock to convert it from "other" to "long gun" and then sell it as a "long gun"?.....

That would be manufacturing and require an 07FFL, ITAR registration and paying Federal excise tax on the firearm you just manufactured.





I wonder if it would even have to be able to fire or if just slapping a stock on it would make it a "long gun" forevermore

Receiver +16" barrel + shoulder stock= rifle.

If built first as a rifle, it is always a rifle.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:05:29 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By cc48510:
Couldn't a seller temporarily attach an upper and stock to convert it from "other" to "long gun" and then sell it as a "long gun"? I wonder if it would even have to be able to fire or if just slapping a stock on it would make it a "long gun" forevermore.
View Quote

If the transfer dealer is licensed as an 07 or 10 then yes the manufacturer (not dealer) could build it out to a rifle (requires both stock and barrel) and hand it over to the OP. OP would end up paying more than the transfer fee though, figure hourly labor + whatever FAET needs to be remitted. The manufacturer also has to engrave the lower with his info.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:16:32 PM EDT
Where are you in Texas?
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 6:46:27 PM EDT
Well, guess what happened fifteen minutes ago?

Twenty year old comes in to fill out a 4473 for an AR lower he bought from AIM.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:20:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Well, guess what happened fifteen minutes ago?

Twenty year old comes in to fill out a 4473 for an AR lower he bought from AIM.
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Too bad you're not an 07.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:39:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bubbles:

Too bad you're not an 07.
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Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Well, guess what happened fifteen minutes ago?

Twenty year old comes in to fill out a 4473 for an AR lower he bought from AIM.

Too bad you're not an 07.

Wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Kid wants to build his own.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:38:50 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:

Wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Kid wants to build his own.
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Well, guess what happened fifteen minutes ago?

Twenty year old comes in to fill out a 4473 for an AR lower he bought from AIM.

Too bad you're not an 07.

Wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Kid wants to build his own.

LOL tell him you'll seee him on his 21st birthday then.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 1:11:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bubbles:

LOL tell him you'll seee him on his 21st birthday then.
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Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Well, guess what happened fifteen minutes ago?

Twenty year old comes in to fill out a 4473 for an AR lower he bought from AIM.

Too bad you're not an 07.

Wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Kid wants to build his own.

LOL tell him you'll seee him on his 21st birthday then.

I did, he'll be back in December.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:50:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Well, guess what happened fifteen minutes ago?

Twenty year old comes in to fill out a 4473 for an AR lower he bought from AIM.
View Quote


Some days I miss AIM customers...
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