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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/12/2002 7:25:17 AM EDT
Justify invading a sovereign country?
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:28:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:29:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 7:30:24 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:31:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 7:36:02 AM EDT by 2whiskeyP]
I didn't get to listen to it. How about filling us in. What were the reasons of justification or the proof that he said that he was going to present? Other than that, go gettum GWB![50]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:31:55 AM EDT
Works for me.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:33:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: He made it very clear why we should invade iraq, and said in a very diplomatic way, we'd do it with or without the help of the UN. I liked it when he said "The US founded the UN, and we intend to see its resolutions adhered to" or something to that effect.
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I'd love to have heard him say to teh UN "We brought you into this world, and we can take you out!!" [:D] I'm waiting for tonites speech. Still, I want it to go to a vote of Congress, so that every one of them critters is on record as to what they believed on teh matter. Theoretically, thay are all more knowledgeable to the specifics than I am. Theoretically. Besides, the Constitution mandates that ONLY Congress can declare war. AFTER that, POTUS is the CinC.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:33:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:35:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:37:36 AM EDT
One guy on radio this A.M. mentioned this: Bush oughtta walk down to teh U.N. building and address the general Assembly as follows: "Hey France - who saved yer butt from Nazi occupation?" "Russia - who saved you from financial collapse and severe poverty?" "Bosnia - Been to war lately? Who saved you bacon?" And go down the list of ALL the nations that OWE us.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:38:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP: I didn't get to listen to it. How about filling us in. What were the reasons of justification or the proof that he said that he was going to present?
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Same old stuff. Evil this, evil that. Killed his own people, violating UN accords. Lieing, breaking deals and conditions, etc... Bush gave a long list of compliance issues for Iraq to follow if it wants to save it's ass. I don't know. Lot's of rhetoric & broad, unsupported statements.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:40:48 AM EDT
Bush laid out the case for war with Iraq in several ways...obviously he had to make a case in front of the UN He named UN resolution upon resolution that the Iraquis had violated and ignored. The UN has given Iraq over 11 years to conform they have not...they have been amassing weapons for the last 4 years and to give them more time to give inspectors the run arround and continue to build WMD would not only not be prudent but it would be in violation of everything the UN was formed to prevent.. Bush used their own laws and charters to prove Sadam must go and go now... Kaffi Annan of course gave a speech that played Iraq conflict down and made the Paly Israel question most important.. (with Israel responsible naturally) One of the best speeches a US Prez every made to that 'august' body [/sarcasm] [img]http://focusonjerusalem.com/annan.jpg[/img] [img]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/70000/images/_70445_annanarafat150.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:41:48 AM EDT
GWB sure can make a GREAT speech when he truly believes and is committed to what hes speaking about. I believe this was the case. His speech in my mind fully justifies an attack on iraq. Thats the way to address the UN, by telling them we don't need you if you don't want to help. We'll go it alone. Give Em Hell GWB!
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:43:06 AM EDT
I kept hoping to hear, "...So this is why I am here now to tell you that we started bombing Baghdad about 15 minutes ago."
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:43:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 7:44:37 AM EDT by lostwildcat]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:50:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:53:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 7:54:19 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: I have to agree there was a ton of rhetorical bs, but he did refrence specific UN resolutions, ie. the number and what it said, and pointed out that Iraq had not complied with them one by one. I thought he did a good job justifying (not that he needed to) why invasion is necessary.
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But does that justify an invasion? Saddam has been in defiance of the UN Resolutions for 11 years! Nobody has cared. [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=143769]Why Iraq and Why Now?[/url]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:56:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/70000/images/_70445_annanarafat150.jpg[/url] WTF is this shit !
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[:o] sausage fest?
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:57:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP: I didn't get to listen to it. How about filling us in. What were the reasons of justification or the proof that he said that he was going to present?
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Same old stuff. Evil this, evil that. Killed his own people, violating UN accords. Lieing, breaking deals and conditions, etc... Bush gave a long list of compliance issues for Iraq to follow if it wants to save it's ass. I don't know. Lot's of rhetoric & broad, unsupported statements.
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Therein lies my reservations. Since its IMPOSSIBLE for me to ever know the truth abotu Iraq without endangering sources / our armed forces, I may just have to trust Pres Bush's honesty, and the Constitutional method of Congress declaring war. Sucks, but I thinks that all I can go on.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:10:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 8:11:15 AM EDT by Zaphod]
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: But does that justify an invasion? Saddam has been in defiance of the UN Resolutions for 11 years! Nobody has cared. Why Iraq and Why Now?
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Three reasons, taken in series: 1) George Bush 41 forged an alliance with the express intent of removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait in order to liberate an ally and secure the free flow of oil at market prices. Doing so saved the bacon of the entire world economy. The mission was NOT to topple Hussein, although we sure tried to take him out under the old "fog of war" thing. Frankly, I didn't agree with the idea of not rolling into Baghdad, but he did what he need to do to preserve the alliance that was needed to accomplish the mission. 2) Billy Boy defeated George Bush 41 and spent the next 8 years seeing to it that the military was gutted in any way possible. He was much happier to use the armed forces as an international meals-on-wheels program or as target practice for every little tinhorn asshole he could find, rather than for the purpose for which it exists: to DEFEND AMERICA. When he finally left (thank GOD!), he left behind a hollow shell that had neither the support nor the morale for an Iraqi campaign. 3) GW was in office less than a year before 9/11 happened and all hell broke loose. Fortunately, he had begun rebuilding our forces as soon as he took office, so we were actually able to DO something. So.... One year between George 41 kicking Saddam's ass and losing the election... Eight years of Billy boy turning the White House into a brothel... One year of GW rebuilding the military after taking office, and one year since the attacks (during which time we actually started using the intelligence services to collect data on the likes of Hussein rather than on the Michigan Militia)... 1+8+1+1=11 years! That's why NOW. Why Iraq? Anyone who thinks that Saddam is NOT involved in terrorism, or that he is NOT a threat to us, or that he can be trusted with WMD's, is either in complete denial or is a liberal democrat. Q.E.D.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:14:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/70000/images/_70445_annanarafat150.jpg[/url] WTF is this shit !
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Man, what I would give to have arafat wired with one of his suicide bombs! Take out two terds with one stone... Keving67
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:16:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 8:20:40 AM EDT by trickshot]
Almost nothing in that speech related to anything less than 10 years old! I could not believe the level of rhetoric in that speech! It also hit home to me just how much of an actor Bush is--he sounds so good when he puts his brain in neutral and just reads from the teleprompter. Our president, like the rest of our government, is selling us out. Lots of countries violate UN Resolutions--why is the US not invading them also? The truth is that the UN is ineffective and always has been and it needs to go. The fact that our president feels that making his case before the UN is more important than making it to our own Congress is alarming to the max. Stop believing the propaganda--Iraq is not a threat to the world. Everything Bush said about Iraq is also true about the United States--talk about a country with tons of WMDs and the will to use them! I can understand why other countries think the US is a threat to the world.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:18:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:28:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:30:30 AM EDT
[img]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/70000/images/_70445_annanarafat150.jpg[/img] Wow, what a picture! I think that guy is actually much closer to the camera than Arafart, but still. . .what a perfect photo!
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:43:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: Almost nothing in that speech related to anything less than 10 years old! I could not believe the level of rhetoric in that speech! It also hit home to me just how much of an actor Bush is--he sounds so good when he puts his brain in neutral and just reads from the teleprompter. Our president, like the rest of our government, is selling us out. Lots of countries violate UN Resolutions--why is the US not invading them also? The truth is that the UN is ineffective and always has been and it needs to go. The fact that our president feels that making his case before the UN is more important than making it to our own Congress is alarming to the max. Stop believing the propaganda--Iraq is not a threat to the world. Everything Bush said about Iraq is also true about the United States--talk about a country with tons of WMDs and the will to use them! I can understand why other countries think the US is a threat to the world.
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You really don't have a clue. From what source(s) do you base your assertion that Iraq is not a threat? Scott Ritter? You accuse many of listening to propaganda, but apparently you listen to Saddam's propaganda. You really are not any smarter than the rest of us, as you insinutate. The truth is probably exactly the opposite. You slam GWB constantly. Who would you rather have, Gore? Maybe you are upset the Slick Willy is not still in office. I really am beginning to believe that you are a DU mole. Some others here seem like liberals as well, but you take the cake. Yes, the US has many WMDs, but we would not use them except as a last resort. Saddam has shown that he will use WMDs on the Iranians and his own people. If you can't see the difference, then you really are warped.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:45:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 8:47:29 AM EDT by longshot_va]
[img]news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/70000/images/_70445_annanarafat150.jpg[/img] That's how they give bl_wjobs in "Pali-." Being well hung in the nasal department and all... [}:D] --LS
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:52:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: Almost nothing in that speech related to anything less than 10 years old! I could not believe the level of rhetoric in that speech! It also hit home to me just how much of an actor Bush is--he sounds so good when he puts his brain in neutral and just reads from the teleprompter. Our president, like the rest of our government, is selling us out. Lots of countries violate UN Resolutions--why is the US not invading them also? The truth is that the UN is ineffective and always has been and it needs to go. The fact that our president feels that making his case before the UN is more important than making it to our own Congress is alarming to the max. Stop believing the propaganda--Iraq is not a threat to the world. Everything Bush said about Iraq is also true about the United States--talk about a country with tons of WMDs and the will to use them! I can understand why other countries think the US is a threat to the world.
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Be careful trickshot, it sounds like you are a traitor. Iraq is a serious threat to the world, Saddam is a lunatic, and he will push the button as soon as he can. However I am not one to say that we should just nuke the place and turn it into a sheet of glass either. Personally I don't want to kill Saddam, it would be much more fun to strip him naked, roll him in molasses, tie him to the ground, cover him with ground corn, and let chickens peck him to death. We will prevail and GWB is just the man to lead us there.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:59:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Archery720: Be careful trickshot, it sounds like you are a traitor. Iraq is a serious threat to the world, Saddam is a lunatic, and he will push the button as soon as he can.
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Well I'm old enough to remember the same things being said about Col. Quadafi of Libya. He turned out to be a paper tiger.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:05:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/70000/images/_70445_annanarafat150.jpg[/url] WTF is this shit !
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The traditional greeting between men in many other parts of the world is a kiss on the cheek. In the M.E., it's been around since biblical times (This was the gesture that Judas used to betray Jesus), and that is what Kofi is doing. There are many renditions of why we in the US & UK use a handshake, and I'm not going to snopes to check them out... The 2 I've heard are (a) it goes back to the Judas/Jesus encounter, and (b) It was a way of saying 'I'm friendly, here is my sword-hand (i.e. same vein as the military salute)'... Legends aside, they exchange cheek kisses (Russians & some european cultures do too), we try to crush eachother's right hands...
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:09:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:13:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 9:14:22 AM EDT by Dave_A]
He turned out to be a paper tiger.
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Well, That can easily be explained by his little encounter with the USAF.... Watching a 'vark blow up the palace you just left 5 min ago can have that effect....
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:17:04 AM EDT
Damn good speech, IMO. Eric
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:34:11 AM EDT
Well, IMHO, it doesn't take a speech to the UN to justify an invasion... It just takes a worthwile strategic objective, and there are plenty to cite with Iraq: First, there's the ability to re-shape the Iraqi government in our image. Japan was a fudal, backwards dictatorship prior to 1945. After loosing WWII, we occupied them and turned them into the most prosperous, democratic country in the far east. Japan's example has spread to Korea, Taiwan, and many others. Basically, it's the old 'Domino Effect' theory again, except it will be *US*, not the soviets tipping over the first domino. Second, there's control of a large supply of oil. Now, I'm not reccommending we go in there to take the oil, but I am reccommending that any OPEC actions tampering with the supply be countered by an increase in Iraqi production. Basically, break the cartel by rendering it useless (and buy (not take, buy - they need their economy back) all our oil from Iraq & Russia after we occupy it & start redoing the government)...
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:47:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Zaphod, excellent post, my respect for you just went up several notches. [:)]
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Thank you, sir, for the kind words. I appreciate them a great deal.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:48:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 9:51:44 AM EDT by liberty86]
Here's what I heard...
The United Nations was born in the hope that survived a world war, the hope of a world moving toward justice, escaping old patterns of conflict and fear. The founding members resolved that the peace of the world must never again be destroyed by the will and wickedness of any man. We created a United Nations Security Council so that, [red]unlike the League of Nations, our deliberations would be more than talk, our resolutions would be more than wishes.[/red] After generations of deceitful dictators and broken treaties and squandered lives, we've dedicated ourselves to standards of human dignity shared by all and to a system of security defended by all.
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Yay UN!!
Our commitment to human dignity is challenged by persistent poverty and raging disease. The suffering is great. [red]And our responsibilities are clear. The United States is joining with the world to supply aid where it reaches people and lifts up lives, to extend trade and the prosperity it brings, and to bring medical care where it is desperately needed.[/red] As a symbol of our commitment to human dignity. The United States will return to UNESCO.
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Yay world socialism!!
Above all, our principles and our security are challenged today by [red]outlaw groups[/red] and regimes that accept no law of morality and have no limit to their violent ambitions. In the attacks on America a year ago, we saw the destructive intentions of our enemies. This threat hides within many nations, [red]including my own.[/red]
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Wonder who he means by that??
The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a [red]threat to the authority of the United Nations[/red]
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My, my, my.....
Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding or will it be irrelevant?
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And as daddy Bush stated, in Iraq act 1, we know that the purpose is "a new world order"....
The United States helped found the United Nations. [red]We want the United Nations to be effective and respectful and successful.[red] We want the resolutions of the world's most important multilateral body to be enforced. And right now those resolutions are being unilaterally subverted by the Iraqi regime.
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I guess this speaks volumes, the leader of the US delegation was Alger Hiss, shown to be a Soviet, (read communist), spy. most our environmental law comes out of "Agenda 21" from the UN. How about the convention on small arms? Read that one??
But the purposes of the United States should not be doubted. The Security Council resolutions will be enforced, the just demands of peace and security will be met or action will be unavoidable and a regime that has lost its legitimacy will also lose its power.
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In other words, we'll do it with the international law we helped found,...or without it. Kinda like a bank robber saying give me your money, or I'll hold you up! I wonder if he thinks the same way about the US Constitution. Oh silly me, he signed the "campaign finance" bill at the same time he said it was un-constitutional... Not to mention the "Patriot Act"...
And we will show that the promise of the United Nations can be fulfilled in our time.
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And that promise was again?? [b]A New World Order![/b] (World socialist govt.)
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:53:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Well I'm old enough to remember the same things being said about Col. Quadafi of Libya. He turned out to be a paper tiger.
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I'm old enough to remember a certain gentleman by the name of Ronald Reagan kicking the good colonel's balls up into his throat one spring evening in 1986. Took out the bastard's daughter and blew his tent into next week. Sure, Lybia took out the Pan Am flight over Lockerbie, but God only knows what our response was that DIDN'T make the headlines. The moral is that he became a paper tiger [b]after[/b] we went in and kicked his ass to remind him what a shit he was. Now it's Saddam's turn, and I guarantee you that "regime change" doesn't mean leaving him alive...
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 11:31:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 11:32:39 AM EDT by Archangel]
I didn't hear the speech, and I usually stay out of these sort of threads, but work's slow today, so here goes. Does the thought of the US invading a sovereign country, relatively unprovoked, bother me? Yes. However, the thought of Iraq with WMD's bothers me quite a bit as well. Saddam has demonstrated both the will to use them (Kurds and Iranians) and the means to deliver them (Scuds). Now, how does Saddam having WMD equipped TBM's affect us as Americans? Will he be able to deliver a WMD to CONUS? Well, no, probably not. Could he hit any of our bases or other interests in the Middle East? Yeah, he could. Will he germ / gas / nuke the living daylights out of Isreal? I'd put money on it. And then Isreal will go nuclear in retaliation. Regardless of what you think of our involvement with Isreal, I don't think anyone would be real happy to sit back and watch that level of genocide happen without doing something to prevent it. Hence our current situaltion with Iraq. I think it's a good idea to go through the UN first. We're a little short on allies on this issue, and with a Klinton-weakened military, we may need some. And Iraq has been violating UN resolutions, so the UN should be the one to call them on it. Even if it's the US on behalf of the UN. That will give us a little better justification in the eyes of the rest of the world. So - here is my armchair general plan of action (and for that matter prediction of what will happen). Do what we're doing, ie get the UN to enforce those WMD restrictions on Iraq. If the UN doesn't go for it, well then we do it on our own. Get weapons inspectors into Iraq. If they resist/refuse, we install them by force. That is where the shooting will start. Actually, it will probably be bombing, but you know what I mean. From there, depending on Isreal and the other countries in the area, things could get messy. But I won't speculate on that. Too scary. That's my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth. I'm no political / military analyst. I just play one on TV.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 3:07:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/70000/images/_70445_annanarafat150.jpg[/url] WTF is this shit !
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As Chimbo alluded to in a previous post, Kofi plays for the other team. [;)]
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