Does he know he's walking a very dangerous line towards a dictatorship?

That's it, everytime something happens, call up the military!

So why do we have a CDC then? The military can handle it. Why do we have the Department of Homeland Security? The military can handle it. Why do we have police officers? The military can handle it. This use of the military for domestic duties is going to get out of hand. Now Bush wants to use the military to control a flu?

Time to call the White House and tell him to quit relying on the military for civilian duties. The military is for killing. PERIOD! Not police work, not for forcing the American public around. For KILLING our ENEMIES! HOOHA!!!

Time to call the White House!

reuters.myway.com/article/20051004/2005-10-04T185015Z_01_DIT460356_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-BUSH-BIRDFLU-DC.html

Bush wants right to use military if bird flu hits Oct 4, 2:50 PM (ET) By Charles Aldinger WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush asked Congress on Tuesday to consider giving him powers to use the military to enforce quarantines in case of an avian influenza epidemic. He said the military, and perhaps the National Guard, might be needed to take such a role if the feared H5N1 bird flu virus changes enough to cause widespread human infection. "If we had an outbreak somewhere in the United States, do we not then quarantine that part of the country? And how do you, then, enforce a quarantine?" Bush asked at a news conference. "It's one thing to shut down airplanes. It's another thing to prevent people from coming in to get exposed to the avian flu. And who best to be able to effect a quarantine?" Bush added. "One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move. So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have." Bird flu has killed more than 60 people in four Asian nations since late 2003 and has been found in birds in Russia and Europe. Experts fear that the H5N1 bird flu virus, which appears to be highly fatal when it infects people, will develop the ability to pass easily from person to person and would cause a pandemic that would kill millions. "And I think the president ought to have all ... assets on the table to be able to deal with something this significant," Bush said. He noted that some governors may object to the federal government commandeering the National Guard, which is under state command in most circumstances. POLICE DUTIES BANNED "But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the president to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak," Bush said. The active duty military is currently forbidden from undertaking law enforcement duties by the federal Posse Comitatus Act. That law, passed in 1878 after the U.S. Civil War, does not prohibit National Guard troops under state control from doing police work. But, unless the law is changed, it would keep them from doing so if they were activated by Washington under federal control. While the law allows the president to order the military to take control and do police work in an extreme emergency, the White House has been traditionally reluctant to usurp state powers. Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman told reporters he was not aware of any current planning by the military to help respond to a flu pandemic. But he noted that after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita devastated the Gulf region, Bush had asked Congress to consider giving the military control over initial response in dealing with major natural or other domestic disasters. "Obviously the (Defense) Department has a tremendous amount of capability in a lot of areas. And we are a large force," Whitman said, noting also that the military had deployed field hospitals to Louisiana after the hurricanes. Health experts are working to develop vaccines that would protect against the H5N1 strain of flu, because current influenza vaccines will not. And countries are also developing stockpiles of drugs that can reduce the risk of serious disease or even sometimes prevent infection -- but supplies and manufacturing capacity are both limited. Bush said he was involved in planning for an influenza pandemic, which experts say will definitely come, although they cannot predict when, or whether it will be H5N1 or some other virus. (Additional reporting by Maggie Fox)

His administration totally drops the ball, then blames it on structural problems in the government. "We didn't screw up, only the military could have handled it well."

Don't bring in the military, put some professionals in charge of FEMA. Its a much simpler solution.

EDIT: Putting on my nomex suit because some ideologues in this forum don't believe Bush has ever or could ever make a mistake. Oh, and it doesn't really matter if anyone else would have done worse ... anyone else isn't the president.

Authority, not right. Only people have rights.

But this then brings up the question, if not the Army then WHO?

This is the same with a terrorist NBC attack.

Who else BUT the US Army has the capability to decontaminate large areas?  

Bird Flu could be the real world equivilant of the Zombie virus.

Panicking ARMED people in infected areas will want to run, but many of them WILL be carying the diesease if it becomes airborne.

How do you otherwise keep in terrified ARMED people who beleve that they will die if they remain home?  And what if that isnt just a beleif, what if it proves virulant enough that infection IS a death sentence?  There is no treatment or vaccine so the only solution IS to confine all infected people untill they die.  How are police going to inforce that?

Or is the ARFCOM Army going to run to the containment line and shoot all the people, including women and children, trying to cross?

Jorge W. Boosh has to be among the worst 'leaders' we've ever had.

I about shit when I heard him say we need the miltary to handle disasters.

Who is running in '08??? Chaney isn't a vianle candidate..... so who will be propped up and trotted before the ignorant masses???

Quoted: But this then brings up the question, if not the Army then WHO?

No, we don't have to bring in the World Health Organization. (OK, awful, stupid joke.)

To really answer your question, there's a difference between bringing in the military to do a job at which it has expertise, and putting the military in charge.

FEMA has the authority to call on military resources in its management of a disaster, but the civilians stay in charge.

Quoted: But this then brings up the question, if not the Army then WHO? This is the same with a terrorist NBC attack. Who else BUT the US Army has the capability to decontaminate large areas?   Bird Flu could be the real world equivilant of the Zombie virus. Panicking ARMED people in infected areas will want to run, but many of them WILL be carying the diesease if it becomes airborne. How do you otherwise keep in terrified ARMED people who beleve that they will die if they remain home?  And what if that isnt just a beleif, what if it proves virulant enough that infection IS a death sentence?  There is no treatment or vaccine so the only solution IS to confine all infected people untill they die.  How are police going to inforce that? Or is the ARFCOM Army going to run to the containment line and shoot all the people, including women and children, trying to cross?

You have enunciated the obvious… this is not 1850… or even 1950. We live in a era in which a pandemic can cross oceans and jump coast-to-coast overnight If you do have a pandemic outbreak and the need to quarantine a large area the CDC and police cannot handle it.

So for you that don’t like the military plan what is your alternative?

Pretend the police and CDC can handle it and let maybe millions die?

Put up… what is your plan?

Quoted: Quoted: But this then brings up the question, if not the Army then WHO? No, we don't have to bring in the World Health Organization. (OK, awful, stupid joke.) To really answer your question, there's a difference between bringing in the military to do a job at which it has expertise, and putting the military in charge. FEMA has the authority to call on military resources in its management of a disaster, but the civilians stay in charge.

The President is a civilian, he will be in charge.
Plus nothing in the statment talks about putting the military "in charge".
It is about clarifying the Posse Comitatus OR getting a pre-clerance for the Regular Army and Federalized National Guardsmen to act as police, to arrest and detain US citizens, and kill those that resist if they are suspected of carrying a fatal contagious disease or violating containment lines.

A worst case scenereo if there ever was one.  And one whos validity could only be based on EXACTLY how deadly the virus is.

It would have to be significantly more deadly than the 2.2% fatality rate of the 1918 flue to justify this.  But what if something that deadly ever DID appear?.

I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point.

Quoted: I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point.

Cop out.

Blame the Dems who basically begged for military intervention for Katrina. The governors don't want it; the Bush admin didn't want it. But if they don't make plans now, they're going to get blamed for a "failure" later.

PS I don't like the military's seemingly widening role either, but when you have people in government that don't understand why it's a bad idea, nor do they care about freedomes, then this is what you get.

Quoted: But this then brings up the question, if not the Army then WHO? This is the same with a terrorist NBC attack. Who else BUT the US Army has the capability to decontaminate large areas?   Bird Flu could be the real world equivilant of the Zombie virus. Panicking ARMED people in infected areas will want to run, but many of them WILL be carying the diesease if it becomes airborne. How do you otherwise keep in terrified ARMED people who beleve that they will die if they remain home?  And what if that isnt just a beleif, what if it proves virulant enough that infection IS a death sentence?  There is no treatment or vaccine so the only solution IS to confine all infected people untill they die.  How are police going to inforce that? Or is the ARFCOM Army going to run to the containment line and shoot all the people, including women and children, trying to cross?

You sound like you want to put the cart before the horse. If they know the flu might be "that" bad, then why don't they make preparations with the civilian authorities and the civilian corps, to get this think organized, just in case?

You sound like you are right in step with letting the military do everything. Do you want some Army soldier or Marine stopping you to give you a traffic ticket? I believe in the Consitution and the way it was intended. We DON'T need the military to do everything. If we could get competent leaders on the job, instead of childish politicians, we wouldn't need the military to clean up every mess. The CDC involved with the civilian authorities should be the first step if this flu has a break out. Not everyone is going to be going around shooting it up when the flu hits, like what you seem to want. With the vast majority of America, all you have to do is tell them what to do and most of them will do it. If they tell my neighborhood to stay home, because the neighborhood might be infected, I don't know of too many of my neighbors that will venture out. In big cities, that's another story, but you shouldn't run first thing to the 82nd Airborne to keep people in their homes. Ever hear of the Constitution? And don't you want our Military killing terrorists right now, instead of babysitting you?

Quoted: Blame the Dems who basically begged for military intervention for Katrina. The governors don't want it; the Bush admin didn't want it. But if they don't make plans now, they're going to get blamed for a "failure" later. PS I don't like the military's seemingly widening role either, but when you have people in government that don't understand why it's a bad idea, nor do they care about freedomes, then this is what you get.

And another person who doesnt understand the situation.

You dont beleve in the existance of pandemics or something?  

Quoted: I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point.

+1.  There would be no way to quaranteen a city the size of Houston, Denver, etc....  If the disease is that virulent, its going to infect the aid workers who will have to go in and out of the city.  You can't just cordon off a city of that size as it will need regular shipments of food, medicine and other necessities.  

You sound like you want to put the cart before the horse. If they know the flu might be "that" bad, then why don't they make preparations with the civilian authorities and the civilian corps, to get this think organized, just in case?

You do not seem to grasp just how many hundreds of thousands of people this may entail.  On short notice.  Also I do hope you were never one of those who posted berating the police for becoming "militiriazed"...

So in addition to supporting the US Military we now have about double the number of police and arm and train them to the level of the US Military in order to simply maintain political orthodoxy?

very interesting thoughts..........

Quoted: Quoted: Blame the Dems who basically begged for military intervention for Katrina. The governors don't want it; the Bush admin didn't want it. But if they don't make plans now, they're going to get blamed for a "failure" later. PS I don't like the military's seemingly widening role either, but when you have people in government that don't understand why it's a bad idea, nor do they care about freedomes, then this is what you get. And another person who doesnt understand the situation. You dont beleve in the existance of pandemics or something?

I understand the situation quite well thank you, but do you really believe there would be this emphasis without Katrina?

Right now we have the Administration pitching the military to be the lead agency for these sorts of situations. The military should be used as a resource, not a lead agency.

Quoted: Quoted: I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point. +1.  There would be no way to quaranteen a city the size of Houston, Denver, etc....  If the disease is that virulent, its going to infect the aid workers who will have to go in and out of the city.  You can't just cordon off a city of that size as it will need regular shipments of food, medicine and other necessities.

It would infect CIVILIAN aid workers... it would NOT infect US military personnel in MOPP gear....

And yes you can quaranteen such a large area, IF you have shoot to kill orders and use armed helicopters and AFVs

Quoted: Quoted: But this then brings up the question, if not the Army then WHO? This is the same with a terrorist NBC attack. Who else BUT the US Army has the capability to decontaminate large areas?   Bird Flu could be the real world equivilant of the Zombie virus. Panicking ARMED people in infected areas will want to run, but many of them WILL be carying the diesease if it becomes airborne. How do you otherwise keep in terrified ARMED people who beleve that they will die if they remain home?  And what if that isnt just a beleif, what if it proves virulant enough that infection IS a death sentence?  There is no treatment or vaccine so the only solution IS to confine all infected people untill they die.  How are police going to inforce that? Or is the ARFCOM Army going to run to the containment line and shoot all the people, including women and children, trying to cross? You sound like you want to put the cart before the horse. If they know the flu might be "that" bad, then why don't they make preparations with the civilian authorities and the civilian corps, to get this think organized, just in case? You sound like you are right in step with letting the military do everything. Do you want some Army soldier or Marine stopping you to give you a traffic ticket? I believe in the Consitution and the way it was intended. We DON'T need the military to do everything. If we could get competent leaders on the job, instead of childish politicians, we wouldn't need the military to clean up every mess. The CDC involved with the civilian authorities should be the first step if this flu has a break out. Not everyone is going to be going around shooting it up when the flu hits, like what you seem to want. With the vast majority of America, all you have to do is tell them what to do and most of them will do it. If they tell my neighborhood to stay home, because the neighborhood might be infected, I don't know of too many of my neighbors that will venture out. In big cities, that's another story, but you shouldn't run first thing to the 82nd Airborne to keep people in their homes. Ever hear of the Constitution? And don't you want our Military killing terrorists right now, instead of babysitting you?

He's a liberal, he doesn't believe in the Constitution or terrorists...they are simply figments of Conservatives' imaginations

Quoted: Quoted: I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point. Cop out.

Reality Check;

The government can't protect you from everything.
Some times bad stuff happens.

Some time people die.


Life's rough.....get a helmet.

all those assholes sqwaking for government relief for katrina victims have helped deal a blow to freedom. now politicians know that shitting on posse comitatus and wiping their ass with the constitution will win them political points if they swoop in with the military and start handing out MREs. the people on camera yelling "WE NEED HELP, WHERES GEORGE BUSH" lack a fundamental knowledge of how our government works but their canted view becomes accepted as mainstream thanks to popularization in the media.

ITS NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS JOB TO HELP YOU.

states rights are dead
posse comitatus is on the rocks
and its not looking good for individual freedom

the coming bird flu will be the final straw

Quoted: Blame the Dems who basically begged for military intervention for Katrina. The governors don't want it; the Bush admin didn't want it. But if they don't make plans now, they're going to get blamed for a "failure" later. PS I don't like the military's seemingly widening role either, but when you have people in government that don't understand why it's a bad idea, nor do they care about freedomes, then this is what you get.

BINGO!

Here's the put up...

- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
Public Health Emergency Preparedness and Response

- Local Authorites along with CitizenCorps.gov

We all have a role in hometown security Citizen Corps asks you to embrace the personal responsibility to be prepared; to get training in first aid and emergency skills; and to volunteer to support local emergency responders, disaster relief, and community safety.

- Federal Emergency Management Agency

- National Guard under State Control

ArmdLbrl...Why do you want the President handling State issues? Why are you so quick to let the Federal Government control everything with the military? Do you WANT a dictatorship to come from this? Are you a liberal that would just love to see Bush become a dictator, so you could say..."told you so!"? You say put up, but "why" do you want the first option to be all out martial law?

Quoted: Does he know he's walking a very dangerous line towards a dictatorship? That's it, everytime something happens, call up the military! So why do we have a CDC then? The military can handle it. Why do we have the Department of Homeland Security? The military can handle it. Why do we have police officers? The military can handle it. This use of the military for domestic duties is going to get out of hand. Now Bush wants to use the military to control a flu?

And you guys thought CLINTON was the one that would impose Martial Law!

I'm not going to call anyone stupid, but how long will it be before the general population realizes that there IS no longer a difference between the parties.  They are both working towards the same goal, just at different speeds.

Just think: If Kerry was prez right now and HE even gave a HINT that he would use the military in such a way...the VastRightWingConspiracy would be so up in arms that he could never EVER do it.  The posts here would be about buying mags, ammo, making the cache stash out in the woods for the dark day that the DemonCraps send in the mil to round up your guns due to the Avain flu.  



I think it's disgustingly ironic that this is coming from Bush, and there will be no call to arms, nobody disturbed, and everyone ready to bend over and take it from The First Daddy because this guy is a Republican.



Holy friggin moley, I haven't laughed so hard in...well, 12 hours maybe.  

At what point do you question Bush and his decisions?

Of course, if there was a massive epidemic in a given area, sealing it off would make perfect sense.  I mean, yeah, the military HAS to be used, right?  Hmmm...

Courtsey of Dictionary.com:

avian: Of, relating to, or characteristic of birds.

Right...so, we'll quarantine NYC, LA, or BFE Kansas, because you know those birds will really pay attention to that there quarantine!



Oh, wait!  The military has Patriot Missiles!  We'll shoot down those evil bird flu carrying birds!  



Oh god, somebody stop me before I suffocate from laughing so hard.

Clinton?  Clinton, you were worried about Clinton the whole time?  

Phew!  Alright...let me save you guys from typing here:

"Fuckin' America-hating troll!"
"What are you, a stupid democrat?"
"I bet you'd vote for Hitlery too!"
", you've got [<500] posts."
"Rooting for the ragheads, eh?"
"So if you hate America so much, leave!"

Alright, if I missed any flames go ahead and flame.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Blame the Dems who basically begged for military intervention for Katrina. The governors don't want it; the Bush admin didn't want it. But if they don't make plans now, they're going to get blamed for a "failure" later. PS I don't like the military's seemingly widening role either, but when you have people in government that don't understand why it's a bad idea, nor do they care about freedomes, then this is what you get. And another person who doesnt understand the situation. You dont beleve in the existance of pandemics or something?   I understand the situation quite well thank you, but do you really believe there would be this emphasis without Katrina? Right now we have the Administration pitching the military to be the lead agency for these sorts of situations. The military should be used as a resource, not a lead agency.

Show me a source where they are going to be the lead agency for all disasters?

But when the only people able to go into a area ARE the military, because they are the only ones with the equipment to survive there, WHY would FEMA interfere with those units chain of command?

Quoted: Quoted: Does he know he's walking a very dangerous line towards a dictatorship? That's it, everytime something happens, call up the military! So why do we have a CDC then? The military can handle it. Why do we have the Department of Homeland Security? The military can handle it. Why do we have police officers? The military can handle it. This use of the military for domestic duties is going to get out of hand. Now Bush wants to use the military to control a flu? And you guys thought CLINTON was the one that would impose Martial Law! I'm not going to call anyone stupid, but how long will it be before the general population realizes that there IS no longer a difference between the parties.  They are both working towards the same goal, just at different speeds. Just think: If Kerry was prez right now and HE even gave a HINT that he would use the military in such a way...the VastRightWingConspiracy would be so up in arms that he could never EVER do it.  The posts here would be about buying mags, ammo, making the cache stash out in the woods for the dark day that the DemonCraps send in the mil to round up your guns due to the Avain flu.   I think it's disgustingly ironic that this is coming from Bush, and there will be no call to arms, nobody disturbed, and everyone ready to bend over and take it from The First Daddy because this guy is a Republican. Holy friggin moley, I haven't laughed so hard in...well, 12 hours maybe.   At what point do you question Bush and his decisions? Of course, if there was a massive epidemic in a given area, sealing it off would make perfect sense.  I mean, yeah, the military HAS to be used, right?  Hmmm... Courtsey of Dictionary.com: avian: Of, relating to, or characteristic of birds. Right...so, we'll quarantine NYC, LA, or BFE Kansas, because you know those birds will really pay attention to that there quarantine! Oh, wait!  The military has Patriot Missiles!  We'll shoot down those evil bird flu carrying birds!   Oh god, somebody stop me before I suffocate from laughing so hard. Clinton?  Clinton, you were worried about Clinton the whole time?   Phew!  Alright...let me save you guys from typing here: "Fuckin' America-hating troll!" "What are you, a stupid democrat?" "I bet you'd vote for Hitlery too!" ", you've got [<500] posts." "Rooting for the ragheads, eh?" "So if you hate America so much, leave!" Alright, if I missed any flames go ahead and flame.

So you think fatal disease is a fary tale then?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point. +1.  There would be no way to quaranteen a city the size of Houston, Denver, etc....  If the disease is that virulent, its going to infect the aid workers who will have to go in and out of the city.  You can't just cordon off a city of that size as it will need regular shipments of food, medicine and other necessities.   It would infect CIVILIAN aid workers... it would NOT infect US military personnel in MOPP gear.... And yes you can quaranteen such a large area, IF you have shoot to kill orders and use armed helicopters and AFVs

They just don’t get it…

The only hope you would have in this situation is the Military.

Notice they are still short on alternatives.

If you want to guarantee gross violations of civil rights
If you want to guarantee the Constitution gets scraped.

Go ahead and bury your heads in the sand and not face up to real possibilities.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point. +1.  There would be no way to quaranteen a city the size of Houston, Denver, etc....  If the disease is that virulent, its going to infect the aid workers who will have to go in and out of the city.  You can't just cordon off a city of that size as it will need regular shipments of food, medicine and other necessities.   It would infect CIVILIAN aid workers... it would NOT infect US military personnel in MOPP gear.... And yes you can quaranteen such a large area, IF you have shoot to kill orders and use armed helicopters and AFVs

The notion also helped fill a void left by the end of the Cold War: "All at once viruses had replaced the A-bomb as the object of the apocalyptic vision." Noting that "Ebola kills 88 percent of its victims," a participant in an Internet discussion group called it "the mightiest threat mankind has yet faced." But in the end, Ebola killed less than one-tenth of 1 percent of Kikwit's population--300 people out of half a million, in a crowded city with poor medical care and abysmal sanitary conditions. And as Regis shows, it was stopped through utterly prosaic methods. A physician with the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention describes the first order of business when he and his colleagues arrived at Kikwit General Hospital, the main locus of transmission for Ebola: "We just went in, cleaned the floor, removed the needles, removed the cadavers, put them in body bags, did the cleaning." Wearing protective clothing, they cleared out and carefully disposed of the vomit, urine, excrement, dirty needles, and dead bodies, liberally applying bleach solution to everything. They instituted basic sanitary procedures, including the wearing of gloves and face masks. Thus was the "doomsday disease" conquered.

So you'd be willing to fire bomb a city, just because you are scared?





I hope you never get to be in charge.

Quoted: Show me a source where they are going to be the lead agency for all disasters?

Here you go:

Atlanta Journal-Constitution September 26, 2005 Pg. 1 Let GIs Run Storm Relief? Bush critics say military role must be limited By Ken Herman San Antonio, Texas -- President Bush on Sunday advanced his call for putting the military in charge of responding to disasters, now under state and local control, a change some critics contend could have dangerous implications. During a Randolph Air Force Base briefing at which military leaders detailed problems with the Hurricane Katrina response, Bush said a key part of his weekend trip, which included a Saturday briefing at the U.S. Northern Command in Colorado, was to find out whether there was "a circumstance in which the Department of Defense becomes the lead agency." "Clearly, in the case of a terrorist attack, that would be the case," Bush said. "But is there a natural disaster . . . of a certain size that would then enable the Defense Department to become the lead agency in coordinating and leading the response effort? That's going to be a very important consideration for Congress to think about." Such a change could require revision of an 1878 federal act that bans the use of the military for law enforcement. Military expert Gene Healy of the Cato Institute, in an analysis published Sunday, warned against tinkering with that law. "Having already wrecked a legendary American city, Hurricane Katrina may now be invoked to undermine a fundamental principle of American law," Healy wrote, concluding that "when it comes to domestic policing, the military should be a last resort, not a first responder." In addition to shifting authority away from local officials, the change contemplated by Bush would take power away from the much-maligned Federal Emergency Management Agency. FEMA was established in 1979 by President Jimmy Carter after the National Governors Association asked for an entity to streamline state-federal links during emergencies. At the time, 16 major agencies were folded into FEMA. In March 2003, FEMA itself was folded into the Department of Homeland Security. On "CNN Live Today" on Wednesday, Carter said the agency's diminished role under Homeland Security led to its recent failures. "I made three promises. One was that the leaders of FEMA would always be highly qualified in handling a disaster. The second promise I made was that FEMA would always be an independent agency, and would not be part of another larger agency. And the third promise I made was that FEMA would always be adequately financed. Well, as you know, all three of those promises have been violated." Bush's comments came as he wrapped up a trip to watch response to Hurricane Rita. En route to Washington on Sunday, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush would like to see a "clear line of authority" established to respond to disasters. The need for a revised structure, he said, is "one of the lessons learned" from Hurricane Katrina. In Baton Rouge, Bush had visited the FEMA Joint Field Office for an update on Rita-related damage in Louisiana, including a new round of flooding in New Orleans. Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco, who had been at odds with the White House in the early days after Katrina, told Bush that federal, state and local officials now were working well together. But, without offering specifics, she said structural changes were needed. Bush first broached the topic of increased military authority during a Sept. 15 speech from New Orleans' Jackson Square, where he referred to the military's unmatched manpower and resources. "It is now clear that a challenge on this scale requires greater federal authority and a broader role for the armed forces, the institution of our government most capable of massive logistical operations on a moment's notice," he said in the wake of the confused response to Katrina. On Sunday, Bush picked up evidence for his case from Maj. Gen. John White, a member of the federal joint military task force for hurricane relief, who said search-and-rescue operations after Katrina amounted to a "train wreck." He cited an incident in which five helicopters were sent to rescue the same person. "With Rita, we had the benefit of time," White told Bush. "We may not have that time in an earthquake scenario or similar incident." Air Force Gen. Marvin Mayes told Bush a national plan would give the military "a quicker jump-start and an opportunity to save more people." Under current law, disaster preparedness and response primarily is a state responsibility. Federal assistance can be requested by governors. Any federal military assistance is handled through the Northern Command, which was put in place as part of a post-9/11 military shake-up. Federal, active-duty troops and equipment were mobilized in New Orleans to help with evacuations and rescues, but steered clear of law enforcement. Any increase in military authority over disaster response could require revisions in a ban on use of military for law enforcement in the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which was passed to preclude military intervention in post-Reconstruction elections in the former Confederate states. The law allows several exceptions, including when a president waives it in a time of emergency. On the day Bush spoke in New Orleans, Sen. John Warner (R-Va.), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, told colleagues, "I believe the time has come that we reflect on the Posse Comitatus Act." He called for giving the president and defense secretary "correct standby authorities" to oversee disaster response. The military is a natural, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said, "when one looks around at institutions that have the size and the equipment and the capacity and the ability to deploy people." Healy disputed Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita's recent claim that Posse Comitatus is "very archaic" and restricts a president's ability to respond to crisis. "The Posse Comitatus Act is no barrier to federal troops providing logistical support during natural disasters. Nor does it prohibit the president from using the Army to restore order in extraordinary circumstances, even over the objection of a state governor," Healy wrote. Current law, he noted, sets an appropriately "high bar for the use of federal troops in a policing role." "That reflects America's traditional distrust of using standing armies to enforce order at home, a distrust that's well-founded," Healy wrote. "The Katrina tragedy ought to be an occasion for rethinking a number of federal policies, including our promiscuous use of the Guard abroad. Instead, Washington seems poised to embrace further centralization and militarization at home. That has the makings of a policy disaster that would dwarf Hurricane Katrina."

But when the only people able to go into a area ARE the military, because they are the only ones with the equipment to survive there, WHY would FEMA interfere with those units chain of command?

If you can't understand why the military needs to be subject to civilian oversight in CONUS then I probably can't explain it to you.

The President as civilian oversight is not enough. The military needs to be under the control of civilian agencies. If they are not we will approach the decisions in a military manner, and you won't like it.

Washington Times
September 27, 2005
Pg. 1

Bush Seeks To Federalize Emergencies

Plan would skip states after disasters, terrorism

By Bill Sammon, The Washington Times

President Bush yesterday sought to federalize hurricane-relief efforts, removing governors from the decision-making process.

"It wouldn't be necessary to get a request from the governor or take other action," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said yesterday.

"This would be," he added, "more of an automatic trigger."

Mr. McClellan was referring to a new, direct line of authority that would allow the president to place the Pentagon in charge of responding to natural disasters, terrorist attacks and outbreaks of disease.

"It may require change of law," Mr. Bush said yesterday. "It's very important for us as we look at the lessons of Katrina to think about other scenarios that might require a well-planned, significant federal response -- right off the bat -- to provide stability."

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) accused Mr. Bush of attempting a power grab in the wake of fierce criticism that he responded too slowly to Hurricane Katrina a month ago.

"Using the military in domestic law enforcement is generally a very bad idea," said Timothy Edgar, national security policy counsel for the ACLU. "I'm afraid that it will have unforeseen consequences for civil liberties."

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour declined the president's offer to federalize the state's National Guard troops in the aftermath of Katrina. So Mr. Bush wants Congress to consider empowering the Pentagon with automatic control.

Currently, the lead federal agency responsible for disaster relief is the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which has just 2,500 employees and is a division of the Homeland Security Department. Mr. Bush has suggested that a more appropriate agency is the Department of Defense (DoD), which has 1.4 million active-duty troops.

"I was speculating about was a scenario which would require federal assets to stabilize the situation -- primarily DoD assets -- and then hand back over to Department of Homeland Security," the president said.

But stabilizing a crisis might require federal troops to arrest looters and perform other law-enforcement duties, which would violate the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878. The law was passed in the wake of the Civil War and Reconstruction to prevent the use of federal troops from policing elections in former Confederate states.

The White House wants Congress to consider amending Posse Comitatus in order to grant the Pentagon greater powers.

"There are two committees that are moving forward on hearings to look at what went wrong and what went right with Hurricane Katrina and to apply lessons learned," Mr. McClellan said. "And this is an issue that they should look at as they're discussing these issues.

"We are also doing a comprehensive review within the federal government," he added.

The ACLU cautioned against such a change of law.

"The Posse Comitatus Act is sometimes criticized as some sort of obscure, centuries-old law," Mr. Edgar said. "But you know, most of our liberties are centuries old. So that would be like saying the Bill of Rights is obscure and old.

"Our strict separation between military and civilian power is one of the things that separates us from Latin America, for example," he added. "Changing that would put us on a huge slippery slope."

Meanwhile yesterday, outgoing FEMA Director Michael D. Brown reportedly said he should have sought help faster from the Pentagon after Katrina hit.

Mr. Brown spoke to congressional aides from both parties a day before he is scheduled to testify before a special House committee probing the government's response to the storm.

According to a memo from a Republican staffer who was at the 90-minute briefing, Mr. Brown expressed regrets "that he did not start screaming for DoD involvement" sooner. The first substantial numbers of active-duty troops responding to the Gulf Coast were sent Sept. 3 -- five days after the storm hit and after a flooded New Orleans had plunged into anarchy.

The memo, obtained by the Associated Press, said Mr. Brown took several shots at Mrs. Blanco and New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin. He said the two officials "sparred during the crisis and could not work together cooperatively."

He also called the governor "indecisive" and said she would not cede control of the Louisiana National Guard to federal authorities because "it would have undercut her image politically," the document said.

Quoted: So you think fatal disease is a fary tale then?

I don't.  I don't think this is a case of 'wag the dog'.  

My point is it's AVAIN flu.  Birds!

Kill the friggin birds!  Forget the quarantine.  The best you can do is get people to stay home from work if they feel sick (unlikely), and push personal hygene.

By it's very nature, the thing that makes the Avian flu so deadly is the fact that you cannot quarentine birds!  Good luck!  They're the vector if you wanna get bio-warfare technical on it.  A pefect carrier that isn't harmed (as far as I know?) by the deadly flu they carry.

So go ahead, quarantine yourself, seal your windows and put in an over-pressure HVAC system in your house.  Have fun.

I'm going to work in the morning.  Nobody lives forever.

Quoted: If you can't understand why the military needs to be subject to civilian oversight in CONUS then I probably can't explain it to you. The President as civilian oversight is not enough. The military needs to be under the control of civilian agencies. If they are not we will approach the decisions in a military manner, and you won't like it.

Fuckin'-A right.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point. +1.  There would be no way to quaranteen a city the size of Houston, Denver, etc....  If the disease is that virulent, its going to infect the aid workers who will have to go in and out of the city.  You can't just cordon off a city of that size as it will need regular shipments of food, medicine and other necessities.   It would infect CIVILIAN aid workers... it would NOT infect US military personnel in MOPP gear.... And yes you can quaranteen such a large area, IF you have shoot to kill orders and use armed helicopters and AFVs They just don’t get it… The only hope you would have in this situation is the Military. Notice they are still short on alternatives. If you want to guarantee gross violations of civil rights If you want to guarantee the Constitution gets scraped. Go ahead and bury your heads in the sand and not face up to real possibilities.

Alternatives... WTF?

This nation had flu outbreaks before. This nation even had a lethal flu outbreak…

The quarantines were enforced by state governments. Why is now any different than then?  

Depends on which side of the quarantine you're on.

I wonder if Bush would quarantine Texas, or Jeb in Florida?

He should quarantine CA today for that matter.

Let me ask the most obvious fucking question of all. Since H5N1 is spread by birds since it is an avian flu, ¿How the fuck do you quarantine an area that was first infected by birds flying over and shitting on it? If H5N1 has already spread from IndoChina to Siberia, WTF is putting some troops around one area going to do once this shit goes pandemic??

I cannot wait for the next dumb ass suggestion such as "Get all the skeet clubs out and shoot every damn bird that they see fly out of the area. Get AAA and lay up a steel wall for the crows and high flying geese."

The last report I saw was that it was 40% fatal on healthy adults which means that shit holes like NOLA with a SubSaharan level of HIV+ of 30% are going to really get stomped. And TamiFlu has already been proven ineffective in treating it.

The S will definitely HTF in biblical apocalyptic proportions when this one gets dancing. And everyone is going rectal defilade on this one.

wganz
¶

Quoted: Quoted: So you think fatal disease is a fary tale then? I don't.  I don't think this is a case of 'wag the dog'.   My point is it's AVAIN flu.  Birds! Kill the friggin birds!  Forget the quarantine.  The best you can do is get people to stay home from work if they feel sick (unlikely), and push personal hygene. By it's very nature, the thing that makes the Avian flu so deadly is the fact that you cannot quarentine birds!  Good luck!  They're the vector if you wanna get bio-warfare technical on it.  A pefect carrier that isn't harmed (as far as I know?) by the deadly flu they carry. So go ahead, quarantine yourself, seal your windows and put in an over-pressure HVAC system in your house.  Have fun. I'm going to work in the morning.  Nobody lives forever.

Quite clearly then you are ignorant.

Bird to human transmission has already happend.  It isnt a major problem, unless you are a worker  in the poultry industry.

What is a concern is that the formerly 'Avian' flu will mutate and become able to spred from person to person through the air, something that right now it has not been able to do but something that flu strains have demonstrated a tendancy to do in the past.  That is what happened in 1918.

Though many times more deadly than a normal flu strain the 1918 flu was still weak enough that a largely voluntary quarantine, along with closing public buildings and public transportation were enough to halt it.  That was a VERY leaky quarantine, but since "only" a little over 2% of those infected died it sufficed.  People felt they had some control over it and so panic was averted.  But the effectiveness of such a lose, voluntary measure is proportional to how deadly the infection was.  If 20% of those infected were dying, the psychological effect would have been very different and people would not have cooperated, they would try and get away, and cause a cascade effect that would greatly increase the death toll.

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

Quoted: Alternatives... WTF? This nation had flu outbreaks before. This nation even had a lethal flu outbreak… The quarantines were enforced by state governments. Why is now any different than then?

An execellent point.

Quoted: Let me ask the most obvious fucking question of all. Since H5N1 is spread by birds since it is an avian flu, ¿How the fuck do you quarantine an area that was first infected by birds flying over and shitting on it? If H5N1 has already spread from IndoChina to Siberia, WTF is putting some troops around one area going to do once this shit goes pandemic?? I cannot wait for the next dumb ass suggestion such as "Get all the skeet clubs out and shoot every damn bird that they see fly out of the area. Get AAA and lay up a steel wall for the crows and high flying geese." The last report I saw was that it was 40% fatal on healthy adults which means that shit holes like NOLA with a SubSaharan level of HIV+ of 30% are going to really get stomped. And TamiFlu has already been proven ineffective in treating it. The S will definitely HTF in biblical apocalyptic proportions when this one gets dancing. And everyone is going rectal defilade on this one. wganz ¶

Uh you get it... we are talking complete civil breakdown.

i'm surprise to see all the critics of bush here, i thought everyone here had a hard-on for him?

Quoted: Quoted: Alternatives... WTF? This nation had flu outbreaks before. This nation even had a lethal flu outbreak… The quarantines were enforced by state governments. Why is now any different than then?   An execellent point.

Uh no... only proves he don't understand the situation.

Actually, he wants the power to use the military.  The government does not have rights.

Regarding the use of the military - not arguing for or against, but there is not another government organization that has the budget or capabilities of DoD.  DHS - not even close to DoD.  I am not arguing for or against using the military for disaster relief, but there really is no other organization that comes remotely close to being able to bring to bear the logistics capability that the military can.  If you want FEMA, CDC, of DHS to be able to do that, open your checkbooks because it don't come cheap.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would guess, that given internation air travel AND porous borders....by the time you detect an outbreak, quarantine is a moot point. +1.  There would be no way to quaranteen a city the size of Houston, Denver, etc....  If the disease is that virulent, its going to infect the aid workers who will have to go in and out of the city.  You can't just cordon off a city of that size as it will need regular shipments of food, medicine and other necessities.   It would infect CIVILIAN aid workers... it would NOT infect US military personnel in MOPP gear.... And yes you can quaranteen such a large area, IF you have shoot to kill orders and use armed helicopters and AFVs They just don’t get it… The only hope you would have in this situation is the Military. Notice they are still short on alternatives. If you want to guarantee gross violations of civil rights If you want to guarantee the Constitution gets scraped. Go ahead and bury your heads in the sand and not face up to real possibilities. Alternatives... WTF? This nation had flu outbreaks before. This nation even had a lethal flu outbreak… The quarantines were enforced by state governments. Why is now any different than then?

The difference is what percentage of those infected will die.

In 1918 it was 2.2% in the US.  At that death rate, a loose largely voluntary quarantene and shutting down public transit, theaters, sporting events, schools, ect. reduced the infection rate, and therefore the number of deaths enough that people beleved that what they were doing was working and so they continued to STAY home and kept up sanatation measures untill the weather changed and conditions got too dry for flu transmission.

Those same measures would still reduce deaths regardless of the death rate.  But if the death rate got substatially higher, psychologically people would break.  They would panic.  Then a ENFORCED quarantine would be needed.

If Avian flu is just a rerun of 1918 the measures Bush wants would not be needed, even if authorised by Congress and for sheer reasons of cost alone would not be implemented.

If Avian flu is as fatal as the 1346 pnumonic plague epidemic in Europe, the so called "Black Death" then the measures Bush wants might not go far enough.

Quoted: Quite clearly then you are ignorant. Bird to human transmission has already happend.  It isnt a major problem, unless you are a worker  in the poultry industry. What is a concern is that the formerly 'Avian' flu will mutate and become able to spred from person to person through the air, something that right now it has not been able to do but something that flu strains have demonstrated a tendancy to do in the past.  That is what happened in 1918. Though many times more deadly than a normal flu strain the 1918 flu was still weak enough that a largely voluntary quarantine, along with closing public buildings and public transportation were enough to halt it.  That was a VERY leaky quarantine, but since "only" a little over 2% of those infected died it sufficed.  People felt they had some control over it and so panic was averted.  But the effectiveness of such a lose, voluntary measure is proportional to how deadly the infection was.  If 20% of those infected were dying, the psychological effect would have been very different and people would not have cooperated, they would try and get away, and cause a cascade effect that would greatly increase the death toll.

Perfect!  You've got the solution, and you didn't even mention the military once!  

And that's my point. I believe I said to encourage people to stay home from work if they feel sick, and push personal hygene.

Why not have a national sick day or two?  I'm sure that would work.

And guess what?  The military wouldn't be needed then either!

And are poultry-birds the only carriers?  What about birds that are more wild?  Crows, bluejays, anything?  Even if it kills other non-poultry birds, how about it's picked up by your cat?  A dog?  Some other domesticated animal?

Oh my god, the sky is falling!

If an epidemic breaks out, have a national sick-couple-of-days.  I'm sure nobody is going to complain.  If it worked in 1918, I'm quite sure it will work in 2005--even if we haven't had a study done on it.  Hell, even let the military in on it and give everyone 96 hours of leave to spend some time at home.

As long as they don't have pet birds.  Or chickens.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So you think fatal disease is a fary tale then? I don't.  I don't think this is a case of 'wag the dog'.   My point is it's AVAIN flu.  Birds! Kill the friggin birds!  Forget the quarantine.  The best you can do is get people to stay home from work if they feel sick (unlikely), and push personal hygene. By it's very nature, the thing that makes the Avian flu so deadly is the fact that you cannot quarentine birds!  Good luck!  They're the vector if you wanna get bio-warfare technical on it.  A pefect carrier that isn't harmed (as far as I know?) by the deadly flu they carry. So go ahead, quarantine yourself, seal your windows and put in an over-pressure HVAC system in your house.  Have fun. I'm going to work in the morning.  Nobody lives forever. Quite clearly then you are ignorant. Bird to human transmission has already happend.  It isnt a major problem, unless you are a worker  in the poultry industry. What is a concern is that the formerly 'Avian' flu will mutate and become able to spred from person to person through the air, something that right now it has not been able to do but something that flu strains have demonstrated a tendancy to do in the past.  That is what happened in 1918. Though many times more deadly than a normal flu strain the 1918 flu was still weak enough that a largely voluntary quarantine, along with closing public buildings and public transportation were enough to halt it.  That was a VERY leaky quarantine, but since "only" a little over 2% of those infected died it sufficed.  People felt they had some control over it and so panic was averted.  But the effectiveness of such a lose, voluntary measure is proportional to how deadly the infection was.  If 20% of those infected were dying, the psychological effect would have been very different and people would not have cooperated, they would try and get away, and cause a cascade effect that would greatly increase the death toll.

You are pro OIF… right.

What make you willing to send American boys off to die?


…Freedom is more important than life.


Your concern over a hypothetical porous quarantine for a hypothetical virus hardly validates an urgent need to abandon Posse Comitatus.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Alternatives... WTF? This nation had flu outbreaks before. This nation even had a lethal flu outbreak… The quarantines were enforced by state governments. Why is now any different than then?   An execellent point. Uh no... only proves he don't understand the situation.

I understand "the situation" quite well thanks.

Quoted: Let me ask the most obvious fucking question of all. Since H5N1 is spread by birds since it is an avian flu, ¿How the fuck do you quarantine an area that was first infected by birds flying over and shitting on it? If H5N1 has already spread from IndoChina to Siberia, WTF is putting some troops around one area going to do once this shit goes pandemic?? I cannot wait for the next dumb ass suggestion such as "Get all the skeet clubs out and shoot every damn bird that they see fly out of the area. Get AAA and lay up a steel wall for the crows and high flying geese." The last report I saw was that it was 40% fatal on healthy adults which means that shit holes like NOLA with a SubSaharan level of HIV+ of 30% are going to really get stomped. And TamiFlu has already been proven ineffective in treating it. The S will definitely HTF in biblical apocalyptic proportions when this one gets dancing. And everyone is going rectal defilade on this one. wganz ¶

Hey Padre, let me help you get those Avian Quarantine cages ready.

Right after I set up this here Patriot SAM site to shoot down the ones that get away.

Quoted:

Ryan, your post on page one has summed up just about all my thoughts on this matter, and the concerns i thought of when i read the thread title/first post...

Quoted: Your concern over a hypothetical porous quarantine for a hypothetical virus hardly validates an urgent need to abandon Posse Comitatus.

Nice to meet you.

Quoted: [ Alternatives... WTF? This nation had flu outbreaks before. This nation even had a lethal flu outbreak… The quarantines were enforced by state governments. Why is now any different than then?

The democratization of travel.  During the last flu pandemic could the average working class citizen travel across several state lines in a matter of hours?  in a privately owned vehicle? traverse the country in under a day on an airplane?

Increased mobility of goods.  You couldn't get all kinds of fruits and vegetables year round.

The world is a lot different now than during the last flu pandemic.  Surely you realize that much.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So you think fatal disease is a fary tale then? I don't.  I don't think this is a case of 'wag the dog'.   My point is it's AVAIN flu.  Birds! Kill the friggin birds!  Forget the quarantine.  The best you can do is get people to stay home from work if they feel sick (unlikely), and push personal hygene. By it's very nature, the thing that makes the Avian flu so deadly is the fact that you cannot quarentine birds!  Good luck!  They're the vector if you wanna get bio-warfare technical on it.  A pefect carrier that isn't harmed (as far as I know?) by the deadly flu they carry. So go ahead, quarantine yourself, seal your windows and put in an over-pressure HVAC system in your house.  Have fun. I'm going to work in the morning.  Nobody lives forever. Quite clearly then you are ignorant. Bird to human transmission has already happend.  It isnt a major problem, unless you are a worker  in the poultry industry. What is a concern is that the formerly 'Avian' flu will mutate and become able to spred from person to person through the air, something that right now it has not been able to do but something that flu strains have demonstrated a tendancy to do in the past.  That is what happened in 1918. Though many times more deadly than a normal flu strain the 1918 flu was still weak enough that a largely voluntary quarantine, along with closing public buildings and public transportation were enough to halt it.  That was a VERY leaky quarantine, but since "only" a little over 2% of those infected died it sufficed.  People felt they had some control over it and so panic was averted.  But the effectiveness of such a lose, voluntary measure is proportional to how deadly the infection was.  If 20% of those infected were dying, the psychological effect would have been very different and people would not have cooperated, they would try and get away, and cause a cascade effect that would greatly increase the death toll. You are pro OIF… right. What make you willing to send American boys off to die? …Freedom is more important than life. Your concern over a hypothetical porous quarantine for a hypothetical virus hardly validates an urgent need to abandon Posse Comitatus.

You lack perspective.  
Since there is neither talk of abandoning Posse Comitatus universally, nor is this a inevitable loss of freedom.  If you are alive rights can always be taken back, by force if need be, but death is perminent.

Disasters are always hypothetical untill they hit.  Louisianians thought that a Cat 4 hurricane was just hypothetical, the Federal goverment it seems didn't think enough suicidal people could be found to crash multiple airliners into buildings for it to have even honored the idea as a "hypothetical".   There is no scientific evidence to say something as leathal as the Black Death cannot happen again.

If you actually think that someone can pull off a fake flu and use this modification of Posse Cometatus for the purpose of declaring martial law- and then do exactly what once they have done it- and then somehow keep it perminant when no dead bodies can be found?  You need to check into a hospital.

Quoted: Quoted: [ Alternatives... WTF? This nation had flu outbreaks before. This nation even had a lethal flu outbreak… The quarantines were enforced by state governments. Why is now any different than then?   The democratization of travel.  During the last flu pandemic could the average working class citizen travel across several state lines in a matter of hours?  in a privately owned vehicle? traverse the country in under a day on an airplane? Increased mobility of goods.  You couldn't get all kinds of fruits and vegetables year round. The world is a lot different now than during the last flu pandemic.  Surely you realize that much.

I’m sure you could hypothesize a coming pandemic that would make the world quake.

How does your imagination concern my freedom?

Short answer: It does not. Nor will it ever.