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Posted: 3/3/2006 4:04:41 AM EDT
Ok, Bush can officially kiss my ass. I can't wait for his term to be over because I am sick and tired of him. If you read the article it sounds like he is almost happy that we are losing jobs here in America becuase "it's the future". WTF.

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060303/ts_nm/bush_india_dc

HYDERABAD, India (Reuters) - President George W. Bush on Friday defended job outsourcing to India during a whistlestop tour of an Indian technology city as Muslims clashed with police in protests against his visit.

Bush's five-hour trip to the southern city of Hyderabad came a day after he sealed a landmark civilian atomic cooperation deal with New Delhi that recognizes India's status as a responsible nuclear power.

"People do lose jobs as a result of globalization. And it's painful for those who lose jobs," Bush told an entrepreneur during a discussion at Hyderabad's Indian School of Business.

The United States would counter it by educating people with the skills needed to be employed in jobs emerging in the 21st century rather than discouraging outsourcing, he said.

"The United States will reject protectionism. We won't fear competition. We welcome competition, but we won't fear the future either because we intend to shape it through good policies," Bush said

"People in America should, I hope, maintain their confidence about the future," said Bush, whose job approval ratings have been tumbling in part because of concerns about the U.S. economy.

Outsourcing and software exports are forecast to earn India more than $20 billion in the fiscal year ending March, with about 60 percent of that coming from U.S. companies.

As Bush spoke, hundreds of Muslim youths fought pitched battles with policemen outside a mosque about 16 km (10 miles) away in the city's old quarters, throwing stones and bricks as they protested against his visit.

Four people including two policemen were injured as police caned the demonstrators, an officer said.

"Allah-u Akbar (God is Great)," the youth, many of them wearing prayer caps, shouted as they rushed out of the mosque and tried to breach a police cordon in the street.

"Bush Enemy" read a black banner on the wall of the mosque.

FARMING, CATTLE

Traffic was very sparse in the usually choked streets and bylanes of Hyderabad's old quarters as markets and businesses shut down in protest.

"Osama is our ideal, we can die for Osama," shouted some Muslim engineering students as they marched through the streets carrying posters of al Qaeda leader bin Laden.

"He is a freedom fighter. He is our leader. We love him more than our parents," said Mohtassin, a 19-year-old student who gave only one name.

Protests were also staged in the capital New Delhi, the northern city of Lucknow and Srinagar, the summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir state, India's only Muslim-majority state.

Earlier, Bush visited an agriculture university and toured the seed research area where women in sarees bent and tended to green patches where peanuts and soybeans had been planted.

The university began collaborating with Cornell University of the United States in 2004 to develop Indian agriculture.

Bush was also shown a huge, black Indian buffalo and university officials wanted a farmer couple to milk the animal with their hands in front of the visitor but the U.S. president was apparently not keen to see it, officials said later.

Security for Bush in the region has been stepped up.

In Pakistan, the president's next stop, a suicide bomber killed an American diplomat and two others outside the U.S. consulate in Karachi on Thursday.

Bush said terrorists would not stop his Pakistan visit, where he is due to hold talks on Saturday.

The nuclear deal, which would make U.S. nuclear fuel and technology available to New Delhi despite concerns in the United States, put the seal on Bush's India visit.

But it still needs to be endorsed by the U.S. Congress and, in an indication of possible rough water ahead, a leading Democrat called the pact a "historic failure."

(Additional reporting by S. Radha Kumar in HYDERABAD and Steve Holland and Kamil Zaheer in NEW DELHI)

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:27:08 AM EDT
Those are private companies who have jobs to fill. Non of the governments business where they go too. Free trade works for everyone. If the market is so bleak why is GDP increase while unemployment is decline?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:38:01 AM EDT
Great then the next time my credit card company calls me from INDIA and tells me I've missed a payment (which has never happened, nor have I been late) I'll give them HIS phone number.

Happened a couple months ago, kinda went like this:

Them: Hello, this is STEVE, calling for XXXX, we we're wondering when you will submit payment? (gotta love this - actually heard on somewhere that they have have been TOLD to give themselves AMERICAN NAMES so we'll relate to them better)

Me: I already have, sent before the due date. What information do you have regarding my account?

Them: Well, we don't actually have your account information on file....only that you have not sent payment.

Now at the risk of starting an international incident...but also realizing that there are no laws in threatening an overseas employee......

Me: Listen up f@^%stick - First your never going to call me again, second you going to stop calling yourself STEVE......otherwise, I'm going to fly to India, find you, and beat you and your entire family within an inch of your lives.

Called the CC company in America (who were actually even more clueless), and closed my account - told'em if they were going to outsource - they arent getting my business.

FWIW - Its is (was) Chase Bank and I'll never associate with them again.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:45:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 4:47:15 AM EDT by Gunner1X]
I have two friends that lost their admin jobs to out sourcing.
First it was manufacturing, now it's administration. We've sold our soul.
Hey bush, stop kissing all the foreign ass and take care of your own. Bush has lost his mind.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:45:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 4:48:47 AM EDT by slaughter]
Bush is an idiot.

And anyone that supports him is lacking smarts.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:50:09 AM EDT
It sucks that people lose thier jobs, but, just goes to show
that nobody is irreplaceable.

The free market is the free market.

Capitalism is Darwinian by it's nature.

Adapt or die.......Or give Communism a shot.

I'm no GW fan but outsourceing's been going on for decades
and decades now.

I find it comical people are just now getting riled up about it.

Follow where the MSM leads you....follow....follow..
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:53:15 AM EDT
When will the sale of America end??????
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:54:32 AM EDT
If the US didn't punish companies, tax profits and create a hostile business environment maybe those companies wouldn't have left.

Hell look what Maryland is doing to Wal-Mart (the nation's largest private employer BTW). You better spend more money on your employees or we are going to take it and redistribute it.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:54:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
I have two friends that lost their admin jobs to out sourcing.
First it was manufacturing, now it's administration. We've sold our soul.
Hey bush, stop kissing all the foreign ass and take care of your own. Bush has lost his mind.



Tough shit. Learn to adapt or you won't survive. You can't single-handedly change global capitalism. I have lost more jobs than I care to recall, but I didn't whine about it and blame .gov - I went out, got the skills I needed to stay competitive, and kept living my life.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:56:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
I have two friends that lost their admin jobs to out sourcing.
First it was manufacturing, now it's administration. We've sold our soul.
Hey bush, stop kissing all the foreign ass and take care of your own. Bush has lost his mind.



Tough shit. Learn to adapt or you won't survive. You can't single-handedly change global capitalism. I have lost more jobs than I care to recall, but I didn't whine about it and blame .gov - I went out, got the skills I needed to stay competitive, and kept living my life.



That takes effort.

It'll never be popular.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:58:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
I have two friends that lost their admin jobs to out sourcing.
First it was manufacturing, now it's administration. We've sold our soul.
Hey bush, stop kissing all the foreign ass and take care of your own. Bush has lost his mind.



Tough shit. Learn to adapt or you won't survive. You can't single-handedly change global capitalism. I have lost more jobs than I care to recall, but I didn't whine about it and blame .gov - I went out, got the skills I needed to stay competitive, and kept living my life.



That takes effort.

It'll never be popular.



That's right! We need a law to force companies to hire me damnit! I want a job, and they should be forced to hire me for it!
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:00:12 AM EDT
Running into this more and more. Tried to switch phone companies ...ran into the problem...

ME: I want to swtich my local service
Operator says: "what does local service mean" in obvious Indian accent
me: I want to switch my local service to ATT...my regular home phone"
Operator: I dont understand...home phone? local service?
Me: where are you located?
OPerator: I am sorry sir, we are not allowed to disclose where we are.
Me: Ok, are you in the United States?
Operator: No
Me: CLICK

I either hang up or switch to my very good Indian impersonation...and piss them off.

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:17:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
I have two friends that lost their admin jobs to out sourcing.
First it was manufacturing, now it's administration. We've sold our soul.
Hey bush, stop kissing all the foreign ass and take care of your own. Bush has lost his mind.



Tough shit. Learn to adapt or you won't survive. You can't single-handedly change global capitalism. I have lost more jobs than I care to recall, but I didn't whine about it and blame .gov - I went out, got the skills I needed to stay competitive, and kept living my life.



That takes effort.

It'll never be popular.



That's right! We need a law to force companies to hire me damnit! I want a job, and they should be forced to hire me for it!



There is a big difference between forcing a company to hire someone and going to a foreign country and praising them for stealing our jobs. I keep my skills current and stay competitive in my field, that's not what this is about. The cost of living and wages in India are cheap, so why pay an American $50,000 when you can pay someone in India for $5,000. Of course the work sucks, they do what they want when they feel like it, they don't support their work, you have to call them at 2am to get them during their work day, but so what if it screws the workers here, ruins moral, and just plain makes life suck, it saves the company some money in the short term and that is all those that outsource care about.

It's about selling out America to foreign countries just to save a buck and Bush is praising that. That's why I'm pissed.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:28:34 AM EDT


There is a big difference between forcing a company to hire someone and going to a foreign country and praising them for stealing our jobs. I keep my skills current and stay competitive in my field, that's not what this is about. The cost of living and wages in India are cheap, so why pay an American $50,000 when you can pay someone in India for $5,000. Of course the work sucks, they do what they want when they feel like it, they don't support their work, you have to call them at 2am to get them during their work day, but so what if it screws the workers here, ruins moral, and just plain makes life suck, it saves the company some money in the short term and that is all those that outsource care about.

It's about selling out America to foreign countries just to save a buck and Bush is praising that. That's why I'm pissed.



I just re-read that article and, I didn't see that at all.

You're just getting mad about a free market, basically.

The world's a changeing stage. It would be nice if we could ignore it, or not
be a part of it, but, it's just not an option.

If somone is able to provide a good or service better/cheaper then
they are going to gain market share.

It's a big boy world. We've just got to wear big boy pants.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:34:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 5:36:07 AM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Those are private companies who have jobs to fill. Non of the governments business where they go too. Free trade works for everyone. If the market is so bleak why is GDP increase while unemployment is decline?



You're on drugs.

ETA - can you translate that sentence in red?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:35:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
I have two friends that lost their admin jobs to out sourcing.
First it was manufacturing, now it's administration. We've sold our soul.
Hey bush, stop kissing all the foreign ass and take care of your own. Bush has lost his mind.



Tough shit. Learn to adapt or you won't survive. You can't single-handedly change global capitalism. I have lost more jobs than I care to recall, but I didn't whine about it and blame .gov - I went out, got the skills I needed to stay competitive, and kept living my life.



That takes effort.

It'll never be popular.



That's right! We need a law to force companies to hire me damnit! I want a job, and they should be forced to hire me for it!



There is a big difference between forcing a company to hire someone and going to a foreign country and praising them for stealing our jobs. I keep my skills current and stay competitive in my field, that's not what this is about. The cost of living and wages in India are cheap, so why pay an American $50,000 when you can pay someone in India for $5,000. Of course the work sucks, they do what they want when they feel like it, they don't support their work, you have to call them at 2am to get them during their work day, but so what if it screws the workers here, ruins moral, and just plain makes life suck, it saves the company some money in the short term and that is all those that outsource care about.

It's about selling out America to foreign countries just to save a buck and Bush is praising that. That's why I'm pissed.



They didn't 'steal' shit. They underbid us and outcompeted us.

Now go invent a robotic call center and get back at them. It's the capitalist way.



It's a simple matter of efficiency, some jobs just aren't worth $50,000 no matter how you add it up. Answering phones and reading a script is not a high level skill.

Not like the person who lost the job is permanently unemployed either. The person who lost his job has more resources and education available to him than the dirt poor indian, so he can go get a better job that is a more efficient use of his manhours.

It's a win-win in the long run, as has been shown over and over several times in the past half century. It used to be we were selling our whole country to the japanese, but it never happened, because every time we sold them something, we used the capital from that sale to invent something brand new. This is how capitalism works. The money saved from using cheaper call centers enables companies to focus on all kinds of new innovations that will benefit us muchj more than that call center job did.

You must be careful not to focus on what is seen to the detriment of what is not seen. The economy is a complicated interwoven network. To just look at the initial effect (the guy who lost his job) does not give you anywhere close to enough information to tell if the initial cause (outsourcing) was a good or bad thing in total.

If the guy who lost his job was replaced by an indian (or 1.5-2 more likely as they probably aren't quite as skilled as the person they replaced), and himself got a new job paying the same or better, this is a net positive, no? So it seems to me, you should not focus on protecting his job, but rather in easing his transition to an even better job.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:41:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
When will the sale of America end??????


Spare me the melodrama.

If you are doing some bullshit, menial job that a guy in New Dehli can do for a third the salary, cry me a river. I'm not going to sit here and lament the loss of customer service, clerical, and put-peg-in-hole manufacturing jobs. We've gotten by with an under-educated workforce for long enough. If it takes a resession or depression to kick people in the ass to get a good education, then so be it.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:46:58 AM EDT
whats the big deal?

the towlies are just taking jobs that americans dont want.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:47:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By slaughter:
Bush is an idiot.

And anyone that supports him is lacking smarts.



Truly eloquent.
It brings to mind George Bernard Shaw, Cicero, maybe even Alexander Hamilton.
It's very rare to find someone these days who exhibits such a mastery of rhetoric.
I salute you sir!

No one will ever call YOU an "idiot".

Are you a writer? Perhaps a Professor in the Classics department of some ivy-covered, northeastern University?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:48:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
That's why I'm pissed.


You're gonna be pissed no matter what happens.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:53:36 AM EDT
This country needs all kind of jobs because all kinds of people live here. We manufacture things to sell. People without jobs cannot buy them. Besides the analysts, technicians, programmers, CEOs, welders, police, firemen, doctors, etc., we also need floor sweepers, janitors, window washers, fast food workers too. People make a living doing what they can do. Just because our government chooses to draw our standard of living down to the lowest common denominator while raising other countries doesn't make it right. We have had one of the highest standards for decades because we used what we made and our markets were protected by our government. After NAFTA someone in Washington must have decided that the only way to make the rich even richer was to lower our living conditions.

I don't give a shit about globalization or India or anywhere else. I do care about my country and the ability of people here to make a living. Poverty and hunger start wars. I do not believe that the average U.S. citizen living like someone in Bombay is where we want to be. I think the president is completely wrong about globalization because only the third world countries benefit at the expense of the more prosperous nations. We have it. Let's keep it.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:55:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 5:56:31 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Do you support the government clamping down on private companies, forcing them to employ people from regions determined by the government?
It sounds like you do.

I assume then, you won't be surprised when this bloated, empowered government "clamps down" on you for some reason.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:56:56 AM EDT
Yeah, capitalism sucks. I can't believe those companies are trying to increase their efficiency to raise profits for their shareholders. We must force them all to stay in America at any cost.

Commie revolution time! Who's with me?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:59:45 AM EDT
Dey turk ma jurb!!
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:02:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rn45:
This country needs all kind of jobs because all kinds of people live here. We manufacture things to sell. People without jobs cannot buy them. Besides the analysts, technicians, programmers, CEOs, welders, police, firemen, doctors, etc., we also need floor sweepers, janitors, window washers, fast food workers too. People make a living doing what they can do. Just because our government chooses to draw our standard of living down to the lowest common denominator while raising other countries doesn't make it right. We have had one of the highest standards for decades because we used what we made and our markets were protected by our government. After NAFTA someone in Washington must have decided that the only way to make the rich even richer was to lower our living conditions.

I don't give a shit about globalization or India or anywhere else. I do care about my country and the ability of people here to make a living. Poverty and hunger start wars. I do not believe that the average U.S. citizen living like someone in Bombay is where we want to be. I think the president is completely wrong about globalization because only the third world countries benefit at the expense of the more prosperous nations. We have it. Let's keep it.



There will always be ditch-digging positions open.

Nobody has a right to a job. It's somthing you have to work for.

The days of the US giant collective farm are coming to an end.

I work in alot of unionized plants and, facilitites...All you have to do
is look around and there is wasted money everywhere.
We did it to ourselves.

Lazy, inefficent workers are going to wind up being replaced at some point, and,
it's been happening for a loooooong long time.

Americans have been fat, coddled and provided for, for long enough.
Putting up barriers to goods/services coming in winds up with the same for our outbound
goods/services.

Change is scary, but, it's here, and, it's going to stay.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:03:00 AM EDT
The people in India (and China) are just hard working, law abiding people trying to make a living doing jobs Americans won't do . . . like design FPGAs for $15k/year.

I work with engineers that think it's great to have illegal Mexicans here to "do jobs Americans won't do" so they can get their lawn mowed and edged for $25, but they get upset when companies move engineering jobs to India and China.

If it's ok to bring in loads of people, legal and illegal, to drive down the cost of labor, both skilled and unskilled, then it must be ok to move hi-tech jobs to places where the engineers are paid much less to drive down the cost of engineering.

I don't like the idea of using foreign workers to drive down the earnings of Americans in either case, but at least GW is consistant on this issue - drive down everyone's wages.

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:05:21 AM EDT
And your solution is to have the Government pass laws, forcing private companies to do what they're told?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:07:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bitmap:
The people in India (and China) are just hard working, law abiding people trying to make a living doing jobs Americans won't do . . . like design FPGAs for $15k/year.

I work with engineers that think it's great to have illegal Mexicans here to "do jobs Americans won't do" so they can get their lawn mowed and edged for $25, but they get upset when companies move engineering jobs to India and China.

If it's ok to bring in loads of people, legal and illegal, to drive down the cost of labor, both skilled and unskilled, then it must be ok to move hi-tech jobs to places where the engineers are paid much less to drive down the cost of engineering.
I don't like the idea of using foreign workers to drive down the earnings of Americans in either case, but at least GW is consistant on this issue - drive down everyone's wages.




Pretty much. If they can to the job just as well, and, at a lower cost.

It's the way Capitalism works, comrade.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:09:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bitmap:
at least GW is consistant on this issue - drive down everyone's wages.



That is EXACTLY what outsourcing and "free trade" is doing in the United States. Americans are losing their jobs to overseas competition and forced to take lower paying jobs. The quality of life for Americans IS declining (I'm watching it happen to friends and relatives) and the quality of life for Indians and Chinese is improving.

Maybe George can run for President of India when he gets done with us. God knows he's paid for it with our jobs.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:09:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 6:11:44 AM EDT by rn45]

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Do you support the government clamping down on private companies, forcing them to employ people from regions determined by the government?
It sounds like you do.

I assume then, you won't be surprised when this bloated, empowered government "clamps down" on you for some reason.



They already do that. It's called affirmative action. I support a government that helps it citizens by protecting their jobs. No country on earth can make things cheaper than China. So by globalization they end up with all the manufacturing in the world. What does that leave us? Service jobs. Where does it leave the country's security? In the toilet. When we lose the ability to make and invent, research and improve, we are screwed. People can say, "Well, go get another job.' That's easy to say if you're working. It's not if you just got downsized so someone in Malaysia can make $4000 a year a so your company's stockholders can get bigger dividends. There is reasonable profit, then there is profit at all costs while cutting our own throats.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:16:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 6:47:56 AM EDT by imposter]
Family values does not stop at the Ganges.

It is a fact of life that some low-value American jobs will be lost to cheap foreign labor, but it makes me a little uncomfortable when the President actually seems excited by it. Bush is too much the global citizen for my taste, along with the rest of our political elite.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:16:49 AM EDT
The shift to Globalism cannot and will not be stopped. The best strategy for anyone is to seek out training in fields that are 1) in-need and 2) cannot be outsourced. Policeman, fireman, doctor, lawyer, dentist all come to mind. Diesel mechanic, welder and plumber would also be good career choices (granted, you would have to actually work...)
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:17:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Bitmap:
at least GW is consistant on this issue - drive down everyone's wages.



That is EXACTLY what outsourcing and "free trade" is doing in the United States. Americans are losing their jobs to overseas competition and forced to take lower paying jobs. The quality of life for Americans IS declining (I'm watching it happen to friends and relatives) and the quality of life for Indians and Chinese is improving.

Maybe George can run for President of India when he gets done with us. God knows he's paid for it with our jobs.



Well, it's essentially about market correction.

Quality of life on the decline? Maybe.

The days of a guy being able to go to work at a factory for 8 hours a day,
sit on his ass for about 3 of those hours, and, then go home to
enjoy his boat, his three cars, etc are growing to a close.

You don't want .gov controlling your life.

I don't want them controlling .biz, with very few exeptions.

If your job needs .gov protection, you might need to find another job.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:18:54 AM EDT
Capitalism is a bitch ain't it?



Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:19:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rn45:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Do you support the government clamping down on private companies, forcing them to employ people from regions determined by the government?
It sounds like you do.

I assume then, you won't be surprised when this bloated, empowered government "clamps down" on you for some reason.



I support a government that helps it citizens by protecting their jobs...


So that's "yes", you support a government that forces private companies to do what the government says.
Be careful what you wish for.

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:30:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Bitmap:
at least GW is consistant on this issue - drive down everyone's wages.



That is EXACTLY what outsourcing and "free trade" is doing in the United States. Americans are losing their jobs to overseas competition and forced to take lower paying jobs. The quality of life for Americans IS declining (I'm watching it happen to friends and relatives) and the quality of life for Indians and Chinese is improving.

Maybe George can run for President of India when he gets done with us. God knows he's paid for it with our jobs.



Well, it's essentially about market correction.

Quality of life on the decline? Maybe.

The days of a guy being able to go to work at a factory for 8 hours a day,
sit on his ass for about 3 of those hours, and, then go home to
enjoy his boat, his three cars, etc are growing to a close.



The typical "union slug" reference. Very good, you're maintaining the talking points well.


You don't want .gov controlling your life.

I don't want them controlling .biz, with very few exeptions.



ENORMOUS difference! Government in the United States is severely limited in the ways in which it can "control" the lives of it's citizens, but it is specifically tasked with the responsability of regulating interstate and international commerce. Business and commerce are not rights they are privelages and whats more they are privelages that the government has a specific mandate to regulate.


If your job needs .gov protection, you might need to find another job.


Yes, yes...it comes around every time the debate comes up. "If YOU are worried about YOUR job then blah, blah, blah". Well, I'm not worried about my job. What I'm worried about are the people around me and the future of this nation.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:33:19 AM EDT
Indians and India... just doing the jobs americans won't do...

man, you guys have to get the difference between free trade and fair trade...

Bush = globalist + NWO
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:36:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandguard:
The shift to Globalism cannot and will not be stopped. The best strategy for anyone is to seek out training in fields that are 1) in-need and 2) cannot be outsourced. Policeman, fireman, doctor, lawyer, dentist all come to mind. Diesel mechanic, welder and plumber would also be good career choices (granted, you would have to actually work...)



So the electrical engineer, mechanical engineer, chemist, computer programer, architect and accountant should become firemen, policemen, plumbers, welders and diesel mechanics? How about security guards, fry cooks, bartenders and sanitation workers too?

Just how many of these security guards, welders and diesel mechanics do you think this country needs?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:40:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Bitmap:
at least GW is consistant on this issue - drive down everyone's wages.



That is EXACTLY what outsourcing and "free trade" is doing in the United States. Americans are losing their jobs to overseas competition and forced to take lower paying jobs. The quality of life for Americans IS declining (I'm watching it happen to friends and relatives) and the quality of life for Indians and Chinese is improving.

Maybe George can run for President of India when he gets done with us. God knows he's paid for it with our jobs.



Well, it's essentially about market correction.

Quality of life on the decline? Maybe.

The days of a guy being able to go to work at a factory for 8 hours a day,
sit on his ass for about 3 of those hours, and, then go home to
enjoy his boat, his three cars, etc are growing to a close.



The typical "union slug" reference. Very good, you're maintaining the talking points well.


You don't want .gov controlling your life.

I don't want them controlling .biz, with very few exeptions.



ENORMOUS difference! Government in the United States is severely limited in the ways in which it can "control" the lives of it's citizens, but it is specifically tasked with the responsability of regulating interstate and international commerce. Business and commerce are not rights they are privelages and whats more they are privelages that the government has a specific mandate to regulate.


If your job needs .gov protection, you might need to find another job.


Yes, yes...it comes around every time the debate comes up. "If YOU are worried about YOUR job then blah, blah, blah". Well, I'm not worried about my job. What I'm worried about are the people around me and the future of this nation.



Well, the ol' union slug reference wasn't hyperbole or
a talking point.....It's my life.

I see more examples every day than I can shake a stick at
of the lazy workforce, restrictive work rules, and, bloated
labor structure that are what is killing the manufactureing sector.

Am I worried about my job? Sure I am.
If you aren't looking over your shoulder every day and
makeing yourself as indespensible as possible, you're
going to be in trouble one day.

You cavalierly point out that buisness and commerce are
privileges, but, then feel that a job is a right. It can't work both ways.

I do not trust the government to control anything.

I do not want the government telling buisnesses what they can and can't sell,
and what they can or cannot do, or be located.

The times of jobs for life at the tractor plant went out with the Soviet Union.



Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:40:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By iamblades:
It's a simple matter of efficiency, some jobs just aren't worth $50,000 no matter how you add it up. Answering phones and reading a script is not a high level skill.



Answer phones and reading scripts has never been a $50,000 a year job, it's been a slightly better than minimum wage job. I'm talking about hi-tech jobs like engineers and developers.



If the guy who lost his job was replaced by an indian (or 1.5-2 more likely as they probably aren't quite as skilled as the person they replaced), and himself got a new job paying the same or better, this is a net positive, no? So it seems to me, you should not focus on protecting his job, but rather in easing his transition to an even better job.



A net positive? Um no. When an engineering job leaves the US that means you have more engineers here than open positions, employers have more to chose from so they offer less money for the same job. The guy that just lost his job now has to take a 20% to 50% pay cut just to keep his same type of job even though his all the current skills and certifications that are in demand. I've been out of college for 7 years now. If I were to switch jobs my starting salary with 7 years of experience would be very close to what I started making right out of college. I would lose most of the benefits of my current job so I would basically be back to square one. How is that a win-win or a net positive?

About 6 months ago I interviewed with a company that is starting to take off. They have amazing potential and could be huge. They have a very small software development department and half the people there came from where I currently work and we all work great together. If the company invested in it's development staff they would grow exponentially. I came in and smoked the interview, was liked by everyone, had the background they wanted, had the history with their current staff. I current have a government job, no worries about outsourcing here, with low pay but good benefits. They came in with an offer that was 3% higher than I was making at my government job, less vacation, no personal time, almost no sick time, and no retirement. There offer was a slap in my face. They had no reason to offer more because they knew they had a ton of people to chose from since all the jobs are going to India. Of course it was a stupid business decision on their part to let such a qualified person go just to save some money. Since then one of their really good guys has quit and the company is stagnate and not going anywhere all because of their business decisions to save money...and that is really my point. There are better qualified people who will take a company further right here in America. People that have a vested interest in the health and wellbeing of the company. People who will work their butts off to make sure the company reaches the mark and gets ahead. But the companies are screwing themselves and sending the good jobs outside the country.

I understand capitalism just find. Businesses will do whatever they need to do to make a buck. They have no real loyalty to America or the people that make their company work, they only care about the bottom line and the share holders. The President on the other hand, is elected and paid for by the American people and it is disgusting to see him in another country saying "People do lose jobs as a result of globalization...and we welcome it."

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:41:18 AM EDT
If only the government were powerful enough to force private companies to do what they're told.

Wouldn't it be wonderful?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:45:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By heron163:
Indians and India... just doing the jobs americans won't do...

man, you guys have to get the difference between free trade and fair trade...

Bush = globalist + NWO



This is what I'm talking about. We can't compete for jobs with people living in cardboard boxes. We can buy houses and cars, put our kids in school, etc. How long will that last when our best jobs pay $2 an hour. For decades other countries have dumped in our markets. No tariffs or low tariffs and favored nation trade status has been granted to dictatorships. Direct government subsidation of industry deliberately intended to undermine our balance of trade is degrading our country's future. Why put a kid through college when they can't find a job? Oh yeah, they can roof houses if they can do it cheaper than an illegal immigrant. I don't want to live in poverty and I don't want anyone else here to do it either.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:47:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
If only the government were powerful enough to force private companies to do what they're told.

Wouldn't it be wonderful?



It would sure take care of the industries that are "bad".

It would help ensure "reasonable" profits, as well.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:49:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 6:54:52 AM EDT by iamblades]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Yes, yes...it comes around every time the debate comes up. "If YOU are worried about YOUR job then blah, blah, blah". Well, I'm not worried about my job. What I'm worried about are the people around me and the future of this nation.



Well, in that case, you're in luck, because the future is bright:

http://www.newratings.com/analyst_news/article_1217534.html

That's 1.6% GDP growth in a single quarter, over 6% over a year.

Job growth has been high as well, so it's not like people are going unemployed for the benefit of the evil rich guys.

Our economy is successful because of high productivity and an ability to adapt to efficiently use new resources. It would be foolish to block off a massive untapped resource(foriegn labor) to US businesses. Europe has been trying that plenty, and you can look at their growth rates and see how it's working for them.

Protectionism and socialism never work, but the free market will seek the most efficient use of resources and improve everyone's lives in the process.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:49:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Those are private companies who have jobs to fill. Non of the governments business where they go too. Free trade works for everyone. If the market is so bleak why is GDP increase while unemployment is decline?


Except for every other economic system, Capitalism is the worst economic system ever tried.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:54:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rn45:

Originally Posted By heron163:
Indians and India... just doing the jobs americans won't do...

man, you guys have to get the difference between free trade and fair trade...

Bush = globalist + NWO



This is what I'm talking about. We can't compete for jobs with people living in cardboard boxes. We can buy houses and cars, put our kids in school, etc. How long will that last when our best jobs pay $2 an hour. For decades other countries have dumped in our markets. No tariffs or low tariffs and favored nation trade status has been granted to dictatorships. Direct government subsidation of industry deliberately intended to undermine our balance of trade is degrading our country's future. Why put a kid through college when they can't find a job? Oh yeah, they can roof houses if they can do it cheaper than an illegal immigrant. I don't want to live in poverty and I don't want anyone else here to do it either.



Our jobs won't ever pay 2$ an hour, because our wages are actually going up, not down. GDP growth is higher than in any other major developed country by far. Job growth is doing well also.

But if I were to go along with this hypthetical, it has a very simple answer. If we got paid 2$ an hour for our best job then the houses, cars, school all become cheaper. After all, what good do those things do if no one can afford them?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:57:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Am I worried about my job? Sure I am.
If you aren't looking over your shoulder every day and
makeing yourself as indespensible as possible, you're
going to be in trouble one day.



There is no such thing as indespensible. Any company can cut afford to lose any employee at any time without a hiccup. I've seen "indespensible" people fired or laid off and I've seen them quit. They always find someone to replace them and business moves on (maybe not quite as smoothly, but it does move on).


You cavalierly point out that buisness and commerce are
privileges, but, then feel that a job is a right. It can't work both ways.



I never said that a job is a right. I said that it is the responsability of the government to regulate interstate and international commerce. I support economic protectionism because it benefits everyone in the society. You made a reference earlier to the union slug that went home to his house, 3 cars and boat. Someone made a profit selling him that house, those cars and that boat, and as long as he can afford to buy houses, cars and boats he is going to. By implementing tarriffs and preventing outsourcing you ensure the future strength of the nation by ensuring the future of the nation's economy. Besides our competition won't let us compete in their markets anyways. They take our jobs and import their products but look at the trade deficits that we have with Europe, China, Japan, etc. It's sickening.


I do not trust the government to control anything.

I do not want the government telling buisnesses what they can and can't sell,
and what they can or cannot do, or be located.

The times of jobs for life at the tractor plant went out with the Soviet Union.



Do a little research on Ronald Reagan and tarriffs. He preached free trade but he slapped tarriffs on lots of imported products in order to protect the US economy. These tarriffs worked too! Reagan slapped a tarriff on Japanese cars to protect the US auto industry and as a result the Japanese are creating American jobs by opening plants here...thanks to TARRIFFS and PROTECTIONISM! Reagan also slapped tarriffs on British motorcycles and several other imports.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:02:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By iamblades:

Protectionism and socialism never work, but the free market will seek the most efficient use of resources and improve everyone's lives in the process.



You're not even familiar with recent history.

Today in the US the Japanese Auto Makers have dozens of manufacturing facilities. Car plants churning our Japanese cars made by American workers. Why? Because of tarriffs on importing Japanese automobiles. The Japanese USED to make cars in Japan and then ship them to the United States for sale. The US automakers were afraid that the competition would put them out of business so they begged the government for tarriffs on Japanese cars and the government agreed. Now the Japanese are competing in this market, and even beating their competitors...and they are doing it with American labor. Why? Protectionism!
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:03:16 AM EDT
Why are the idiots protesting? Aren't they happy that 4 Indians can be hired at the cost of one American programmer?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:03:16 AM EDT
So, what is your vaunted solution to this problem?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:08:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

I never said that a job is a right. I said that it is the responsability of the government to regulate interstate and international commerce. I support economic protectionism because it benefits everyone in the society. You made a reference earlier to the union slug that went home to his house, 3 cars and boat. Someone made a profit selling him that house, those cars and that boat, and as long as he can afford to buy houses, cars and boats he is going to. By implementing tarriffs and preventing outsourcing you ensure the future strength of the nation by ensuring the future of the nation's economy. Besides our competition won't let us compete in their markets anyways. They take our jobs and import their products but look at the trade deficits that we have with Europe, China, Japan, etc. It's sickening.



Protectionism DOESN'T work though, look at europe's economic growth rates compared to ours. Or Japan's. Or any other highly developed protectionist economy.

The only thing tariffs do is screw the american consumer so he has to pay more on an inferior product when he could have chosen to spend the difference on something else that may have. There is no human being who I trust to decide which is worth more, the job(s) that the tariff protects or the job(s) that the consumer would have supported had he been able to use his money the way he wanted to. So I trust the market in this matters, and it hasn't failed yet.

They don't 'take' our jobs, for the last time. We have more jobs than we have ever had. Where do all these mythical 'stolen jobs' run off to?

The trade deficits are a worry, but they are being financed by a massive foreign investment surplus, because our economy has the highest amount of stable growth in the world. The trade deficit isn't the big deal most make it out to be though. ALL of our imports only make up like 10% of our economy, the deficit is like 5%. That is not the huge deal it is made out to be.
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