Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
PSA
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 12/15/2004 6:18:38 PM EDT
AP News/Excite

Dec 15, 6:32 PM (ET)
By TED BRIDIS

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday.

Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity.

The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo.

The military increasingly uses GPS technology to move troops across large areas and direct bombs and missiles. Any government-ordered shutdown or jamming of the GPS satellites would be done in ways to limit disruptions to navigation and related systems outside the affected area, the White House said.

"This is not something you would do lightly," said James A. Lewis, director of technology policy for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "It's clearly a big deal. You have to give them credit for being so open about what they're going to do."

President Clinton abandoned the practice in May 2000 of deliberately degrading the accuracy of civilian navigation signals, a technique known as "selective availability."

The White House said it will not reinstate that practice, but said the president could decide to disable parts of the network for national security purposes.

The directives to the Defense Department and the Homeland Security Department were part of a space policy that Bush signed this month. It designates the GPS network as a critical infrastructure for the U.S. government. Part of the new policy is classified; other parts were disclosed Wednesday.

The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free.

The U.S. network is comprised of more than two dozen satellites that act as beacons, sending location-specific radio signals that are recognized by devices popular with motorists, hikers, pilots and sailors.

Bush also said the government will make the network signals more resistant to deliberate or inadvertent jamming.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:25:49 PM EDT
Sounds like a good plan to me.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:25:54 PM EDT
Fuck the planes and boats, I need my GPS!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:27:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 6:27:51 PM EDT by bung]
I'm sure the terrorists can't use a map and compass.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:33:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bung:
I'm sure the terrorists can't use a map and compass.

 Terrorists know how to teach missiles to follow a map and compass with accuracy???
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:33:57 PM EDT
What will they ban next, sextons?
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:34:26 PM EDT
I'm sure the terrorists wouldn't already know where they are going.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:36:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARFireer:

Originally Posted By bung:
I'm sure the terrorists can't use a map and compass.

 Terrorists know how to teach missiles to follow a map and compass with accuracy???


They are called smart bombs.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:36:36 PM EDT
so the first hint of a national crisis brewing will be the GPS constellation going TU.  This has been a feature of the system since its inception, nothing new to see here.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:38:11 PM EDT
Hmmm...will this just disable the WAAS features...or the whole shebang?

Might be time to unload GRMN
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:39:15 PM EDT
...and that's sextants to you, knave!!!


Originally Posted By Javak:
What will they ban next, sextons?

Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:41:24 PM EDT
This will disable the unencrypted signal being broadcast from the satellites.  Personnel using pluggers will still be able to access the satellites.  Basically, if they skew the unencrypted data to the point of being unusable or just blank it out altogether, the military will be the only people worldwide still able to use the system.  We can also blank out specific areas or skew the timing signal.

But hey, in Satcom, all my work is over my head.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:41:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zippy_The_Wonderdog:
...and that's sextants to you, knave!!!


Originally Posted By Javak:
What will they ban next, sextons?




aaaarrrggghhh... I be a landlubber
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:41:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 6:42:17 PM EDT by TheSaint2284]
What will soccer moms use to find the closest mall in their GPS enabled mini-vans

Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:46:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
so the first hint of a national crisis brewing will be the GPS constellation going TU.  This has been a feature of the system since its inception, nothing new to see here.



Yep which underscores the weakness of relying on GPS exclusively. If you are a SHTF type ya better stay proficient with old fashioned land nav.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 6:50:12 PM EDT
Here's my favorite part of the story:


"The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free."

I guess the taxes we paid to put the system into orbit doesn't count.

Link Posted: 12/15/2004 7:06:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bung:
I'm sure the terrorists can't use a map and compass.



Actually, using the map and compass can be a pain, and very time consuming unless one is very familiar with an area from the perspective of the vehicle used.  Taking as an example the 9/11 attacks, the simple way to set this sort of thing up (and, I'm not giving anything away here, the terrorists have thought of this and more; and it's the reason the President is formalizing what has been policy for years) would be to go to a site such as the Trade Center with a small handheld GPS, and mark it as a waypoint.  Then, when ready to do the deed, simply use the "GO TO" function of the unit to take you back to the site.  I would hope the FBI took note of anyone with handheld GPS units marking waypoints in cities, etc.  HArd to do, I know, but if observed, I'd hope they follow it.  Another illicit application would be to use ethe GPS, many of which have data outputs, to tell a package when to explode.  WHile one really can't prevent the first one of these with a shutdown as mentioned, follow-ons can be stopped if the package doesn't know where it is.

So, his policy makes a lot of sense.  Nothing new, just laying it down.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 7:10:01 PM EDT
For how long?


*sniffle*  Live long and prosper Rino, you served me well.



Link Posted: 12/15/2004 7:16:23 PM EDT
It's my gut feeling that a person who's willing to ride a PLANE into a BUILDING,  isn't going to be hampered by a GPS outage.  They'll climb in or on whatever they are driving, shooting or flying and guide it in with their own sand-flea infested ass.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 7:19:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Javak:
What will they ban next, sextons?



You mean sextants?  Different thing entirely.

1911fan
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 7:40:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
This will disable the unencrypted signal being broadcast from the satellites.  Personnel using pluggers will still be able to access the satellites.  Basically, if they skew the unencrypted data to the point of being unusable or just blank it out altogether, the military will be the only people worldwide still able to use the system.  We can also blank out specific areas or skew the timing signal.

But hey, in Satcom, all my work is over my head.



Link Posted: 12/15/2004 7:58:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARFireer:

Originally Posted By bung:
I'm sure the terrorists can't use a map and compass.

 Terrorists know how to teach missiles to follow a map and compass with accuracy???



Hey, it works for the tomahawk.  I'm sure theres a bunch of those lying around Cairo.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 7:59:16 PM EDT
great now I get to hear my dad tell me how important it is to have a compass rather than a plugger
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:13:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 8:19:49 PM EDT by BlammO]
BFD.  If our enemies aren't building their missiles and ICBM's to use both GPS and GLOSNASS, they're dumber than rocks.  GLOSNASS may not be as precise, but it's good enough for most warhead delivery systems and the U.S. doesn't control it.

ETA:  Googling doesn't reveal much current info about GLOSNASS.  Maybe it's no longer a viable system.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:20:47 PM EDT
Given the fact that the National Airspace System is moving toward total reliance on GPS over the next decade or two, this option won't be workable in the future.

For right now shutting down GPS would be a PITA for air and ground transport.  10 years from now it would be the same as having computer based systems go off line nationwide (in otherwords a total disaster).
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:26:54 PM EDT
ohh they are developing a new system....

.....*ahem* SkyNet
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:33:56 PM EDT
Good thing I learned some land navigation and mountaineering in Boy Scouts many years ago.
A good map, a compass and your wits about you.....it's all good.
Too many have become far too dependant on technology.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:39:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 8:39:51 PM EDT by repub18]
Considering NASA's history the satellites will blow up after the "temporary" shutdown
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:44:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 8:44:39 PM EDT by Airwolf]

Originally Posted By repub18:
Considering NASA's history the satellites will blow up after the "temporary" shutdown



NASA didn't have anything to do with GPS, it was (and is) a DOD op from the get-go.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:45:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:51:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 8:52:11 PM EDT by ChrisLe]

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
This will disable the unencrypted signal being broadcast from the satellites. Personnel using pluggers will still be able to access the satellites.  



Doh!! Somebody better tell our boys in Iraq because none of the grunts used pluggers. They ditched them for civilian gps units. They're smaller, lighter and just as, if not more, accurate than the pluggers....
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 9:05:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
It's my gut feeling that a person who's willing to ride a PLANE into a BUILDING,  isn't going to be hampered by a GPS outage.  They'll climb in or on whatever they are driving, shooting or flying and guide it in with their own sand-flea infested ass.



GPS outage could indeed seriously hamper some newbie pilot with minimal Seat Of The Pants nav skills.  If you haven't done it, you can't imagine how different the earth looks from Flight Level 150. Some things stand out like neon lights. Other things are all but invisible. Add a little bit of haze to the mix and you better know how to get where you're going... or you ain't going to get there.

Its ridiculously easy to navigate to some location via GPS, especially if you have no interest in landing.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 9:15:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BlammO:
GLOSNASS may not be as precise, but it's good enough for most warhead delivery systems and the U.S. doesn't control it.



The article said that the intent was to deny an enemy's access to both our GPS and "other similar systems".
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 9:39:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
What I think the government needs is its own separate GPS-type system, operating purely in encrypted mode.  That way, they could shut down GPS if necessary, but it wouldn't affect military or government operations at all.

I wouldn't doubt that such a system is already under development, at least.


CJ



The GPS constellation transmits two signals.  One is a civilian band and the other is a much more accurate and secure military band.  They can degrade or shut down the civilian band without any effect on the military band.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 9:50:47 PM EDT
I would have thought by the time the government realizes they need to shut down the GPS system it would already be to late.

The terrorist would most likely have a back up plan.

I hope that day never comes.

Court .223
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 9:55:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 9:56:15 PM EDT by ChrisLe]

Originally Posted By court223:
The terrorist would most likely have a back up plan.
I hope that day never comes.




+1 Well said!
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 10:35:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 10:36:08 PM EDT by 4get_No1]
GPS is just a bunch of very accurate clocks out there in orbits, each broadcasting what time they think it is with a great deal of precision (or a little less time stability, USofA call) - (or a very non-usable signal, again USofA call).

Not news that the Prez has the call.
I know where I'm going in a defensive situation - don't need no stinking GPS.
I don't need to use GPS in an offensive manner.
I know enough about what I'm doing and don't absolutely need GPS but it's cool to have.


Link Posted: 12/15/2004 10:49:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Javak:

Originally Posted By Zippy_The_Wonderdog:
...and that's sextants to you, knave!!!


Originally Posted By Javak:
What will they ban next, sextons?




aaaarrrggghhh... I be a landlubber




All a youse guys is a buncha dummies.....

A sextant is a navigational instrument.


A sex tent is a field whorehouse.


Sheesh! Don't youse guys know nothing?
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 2:18:23 AM EDT
This has nothing to do with terrorism. It just another way to control you and I. If we keep going we won't be able to take a crap with out breaking a law.....
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 2:37:48 AM EDT
One thing .gov can't take from me is my ability to read map and use a friggin compass.  If .gov thinks it can control me by diableing a gps, disable away.  Since I don't own one, I don't really care.  Any conspiracy wackos sobbing about gps's should probably go ahead and get highly confident with a map.  

I am.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 2:45:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARFireer:
Fuck the planes and boats, I need my GPS!!!!!!!!!

+1
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 3:18:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2004 3:26:20 AM EDT by STLRN]

Originally Posted By rjroberts:
Actually, using the map and compass can be a pain, and very time consuming unless one is very familiar with an area from the perspective of the vehicle used.  Taking as an example the 9/11 attacks, the simple way to set this sort of thing up (and, I'm not giving anything away here, the terrorists have thought of this and more; and it's the reason the President is formalizing what has been policy for years) would be to go to a site such as the Trade Center with a small handheld GPS, and mark it as a waypoint.  Then, when ready to do the deed, simply use the "GO TO" function of the unit to take you back to the site.  I would hope the FBI took note of anyone with handheld GPS units marking waypoints in cities, etc.  HArd to do, I know, but if observed, I'd hope they follow it.  Another illicit application would be to use ethe GPS, many of which have data outputs, to tell a package when to explode.  WHile one really can't prevent the first one of these with a shutdown as mentioned, follow-ons can be stopped if the package doesn't know where it is.

So, his policy makes a lot of sense.  Nothing new, just laying it down.



They are pretty sure a terrorist did exactly this.  Back when Pres Clinton turedn SA off, the FA school wrote a position paper than it was a bad idea because a terrorist was going to take an aircraft and turn it into a cheap cruise missle, we no idea of the size of that plane at the time.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 3:28:51 AM EDT
Good plan.
Now if we could find a way to check more than 5% of cargo entering this country.....
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 3:31:38 AM EDT
You cannot turn off the non-encrypted signal and still use the encrypted, you can only degrade non encrypted.  The CA (Course and Acquisition) is required by P (Y) code receivers (Precision, encrypted).  In order for the P(Y) signal to be used the receiver has to first get the CA code, it than switches to the P(Y) code once it has its approximate location.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 3:34:17 AM EDT
Only one two BIG problems with this  'cunning plan'……

Russians have GLONASS and the Eurpean Union is to launch it's own GPS system, Galileo…

Sorry George, it's too late… not only has the US's GPS horse bolted, but there are two more compatible systems in reserve.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 3:38:11 AM EDT
When will they start working on a plan to shut down the internet "just in case?"

Link Posted: 12/16/2004 3:40:31 AM EDT


How on earth are they going to prevent broadcasts (BROADCASTS..note this word) over a certain part of the world from a sattelite?

What, are they going to line the USA with tinfoil and bounce the signal away? Can't be done.

Someone else also posted the GPS sats use two signals...

They send one signal, and one signal alone, for GPS usage. American GPS units, up until 2k, had a built-in fuction in them to deliberatly skew the clock on the handheld by up to several seconds each way of the actual time. This was why on old units your position would randomly jump anywhere from inches to meters different...if you're standing still and not moving at all. Used to drive me nuts on the GPS I had.

You could easily defeat this..by going to Europe (or Canada, I believe) and buying a "foreign" GPS...problem was it was prohibitivily expensive. (Not that it wasn't expensive here to begin with, but units outside the USA cost a lot more, if you could find them)

We're not talking brain surgery on dumbing down GPS's; it was all in the consumer handheld. The sats just sat above, broadcasting their time signals. The handhelds took the signal and skewed it.

The only thing they can possibly do is shut down the whole system...but that'd wreak chaos globally. Imagine a supertanker who's relying on GPS locations to navigate the ship through some serious shoals..losing his GPS. Imagine far more serious events, happening all the time, and then just shutting GPS off....we can't quite do that, either.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 3:59:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2004 3:59:33 AM EDT by vito113]

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:

You could easily defeat this..by going to Europe (or Canada, I believe) and buying a "foreign" GPS...problem was it was prohibitivily expensive. (Not that it wasn't expensive here to begin with, but units outside the USA cost a lot more, if you could find them)




GPS recievers are cheap and readily available 'consumer' electronics in the EU now… Garmin eTrex @ $140
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 4:06:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 4:11:01 AM EDT
Eagle, I've been lookin for that manual. Thanks for posting it. Is there a PDF version that's downloadable somewhere?
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 4:13:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cwd10:
Eagle, I've been lookin for that manual. Thanks for posting it. Is there a PDF version that's downloadable somewhere?



There used to be a site called "General Dennis J. Reimer Training and Doctrine Digital Library" but my old link is dead.  They had PDFs for some of the FMs
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top