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Posted: 3/18/2002 7:24:05 PM EDT
Does anyone know what I can build legally with a post-ban AR-15 pistol receiver. I recently purchased a brand new Ar-15 receiver that was designated as a Pistol receiver from the factory. I know it will have to have the flashhider pinned or soldered, but what about the handguard. It appears than postban cannot have any type of shroud where the user can use it as a place to put the non-trigger hand on to hold the weapon. Does this mean I can only have the barrel on it with no type of handguard? I also know that it must be under 50 oz. in weight. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:53:36 PM EDT
that's about the size of it, w_r_t, if you want to keep the detachable magazine. If you permanently attach the magazine, you can do whatever you want to it.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:24:21 AM EDT
You'd really have to shave the AR15 upper and lower down (think swiss cheese) in order to meet the 50oz weight restriction, because a detachable magazine forward of the pistol grip is an evil feature (as is being over 50oz). Your best bet would be to get your best feeding 30 round USGI magazine (it doesnt have to be drop-free, as long as it feeds 100%), and have someone weld it into the magazine well, then you wouldnt have to worry about all the silly rules. Kharn
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:56:58 AM EDT
I don't think the 50 oz will be a problem since I am using a Kevlar upper and lower receiver with a Thermold or similar mag. I will probably have the barrel fluted and at 10.25" - what about the handguard though? I guess there is no way to put a handguard on it? Seems a little ridiculous to me - most pistols such as glocks and others have polymer/steel/alum. material that surrounds the barrel. Does anyone know what to do around the barrel to cover the gas tube? Without - pinning the magazine in. Thanks
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 7:24:05 AM EDT
I would talk to Kurt about this. He might be able to come up with a design for you. His forum is under "Industry Forums" near the bottom. Kurts Kustom Firearms.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:37:21 PM EDT
Is the 50 OZ limit in place if it has a detachable mag behind the pistol grip?
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:58:14 PM EDT
Hey, I like that idea! A mini-bullpup AR pistol.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 8:26:55 PM EDT
adtech: it applies no matter where the magazine is if the magazine is removable and the pistol is a semi-auto and made after the 94 ban. Mounting the mag anywhere outside the pistol grip (forward, backwards, out the side, whatever) then becomes the ONE feature usually allowed on a post-ban semi auto pistol with a detachable magazine.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 11:42:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By White_River_Tactical: I don't think the 50 oz will be a problem since I am using a Kevlar upper and lower receiver with a Thermold or similar mag.
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The 50 ounces is the biggest problem with an AR pistol. Only two companies have made them, Professional Ordance and Olympic Arms. PO has had a lot of problems with theirs. Hopefully it will improve, but so far it does not look good. Olympic Arms had to make it like swiss cheese, but are using proven technology from 10 years ago. mark
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 7:40:04 PM EDT
W.R.T. - You've about got it. Get the lower designated as a pistol receiver. [You also *MAY* be able to take an "undeclared" receiver - that is plain lower never having been or declared as a rifle before - and make an AR pistol out of it too, dunno. Tread carefully.] The 50oz weight is the big limitation so you must be using the synthetic uppers/lowers. (Hesse??) There is NOTHING you can do about a front handguard on a postban AR15 pistol. That's why Prof. Ordnance has their gas tube shrouded but otherwise exposed: can't put a forward grip (NFA!! when on pistol) or regular CAR-style handguard. Dunno what went wrong with Prof. Ord pistols/ carbines. Think they tried to deviate too far from AR spec. Plus they don't have chrome lined barrels or milspec chambers so that's prob half the feed/extraction problems you hear about! Bill Wiese San Mateo, CA
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 8:03:25 PM EDT
W-R-T, I'm in the EXACT same boat you are. Let me guess... HESSE arms Kevlar pistol lower and a HESSE arms kevlar pistol upper? Here's the skinny that I used to make my pistol: - purchase a pre-ban 7 1/2" pistol barrel with barrel nut, gas tube, roll pin, delta ring assembly, and milled front sight assembly. - purchase a Wilson Combat (or other maker) post-ban legal A2 appearing muzzlebreak and have them perminantly attach it to the barrel. - with a barrel wrench, mount the "assembled" pistol barrel onto the kevlar lower. With the delta ring attached you cannot mount any exsisting handguards to the barrel unit (because it is like 4" between the delta ring and the handguard cap, which I had cut off by Wilson when they had the barrel) so it meets the BATF "no handguards" requirement. - purchase a JT distributing "lightweight" aluminum Bolt carrier assembly and a basic charging handle and install them. - purchase any old lower parts kit as I have found no weight difference between them and install that Now you have a choice on the buffer assembly: - purchase a normal steel pistol buffer assembly, but keep it's very heavy weight in mind. I don't like these because they add much hated weight to the gun and they use a bizzare "guide rod" recoil spring assembly that is very difficult to take down. - or do like I did and buy a CAR buffer tube (without the plactic stock pieces) and mill the rails out on the bottom so it can't accept the stock parts. Use a CAR recoil spring and buffer. When you get all of these parts together you end up with a post-ban legal AR-15 pistol that weighs about 46 oz. give or take a few grams, and looks remarkably like the PO Carbon 15 except that it runs normal AR guts and parts. For anyone who is interested in the exact cost of all this here is a price breakdown: HESSE matched kevlar upper and lower, stripped = $330 Pistol Barrel assembly with all related parts = $165 Wilson Combat muzzlebreak and pinning = $95 JT distributing lightweight bolt carrier group and charging handle = $200 Normal lower parts kit and accu-wedge = $70 CAR complete collapsing telestock (which is ripped apart and milled) = $60
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 7:18:07 PM EDT
JsARCLIGHT, Does the prices you list include the modifications to the parts (ie buffer so on)? Hesse's factory 223 pistol was listed on the last (Feb) FAC Wholesale catalog as under 600....(but I'm not sure if it's available yet...) Your parts listed out to be 920.
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 9:15:03 AM EDT
I was thinking of taking my 7.5" barrel to a metal place, having the diameter milled down to the thickness of where the gas block goes on, then redrilling the gas port and making a 4" barrel. That'd get rid of a lot of weight. wouldn't be accurate, but would look damn intimidating with a Vortex hider on it. Those Pro Ord guns, can you order a seperate buffer tube and assembly from them? Do they use a standard buffer or that funky one?
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 6:38:36 PM EDT
In response to Kaliburz: All grinding and dremmel work was done by myself in my workshed, so no dollar value attached to that (just time). As to the HESSE pistol, WHAT WHAT WHAT!?! (imagine kyle's mom from south park) I have seen absolutely nothing about HESSE making an actual pistol for retail sale. I talked with several people from HESSE after buying my stripped lower and was informed that "they had no plans to produce a complete pistol", but then they said "yes, we are developing a pistol but it has not passed BATF yet" and that was the last I heard. About a month ago I first saw the HESSE kevlar uppers and that's when I bought the one I used. When it comes to post-ban AR pistols, I have shot the ProOrd Carbon 15 and found it to be complete crap and decided to build my own that "worked". I found that the steel "pistol buffers" have spring problems so that's what prompted me to use the CAR tube. As for the cost of construction, all I can say is that the pistol fires like a champ, has no feed issues or stove-pipe jams, and uses all normal AR guts so parts replacement don't require a trip to the internet to search for overpriced "special" parts or the inevitable kinked pistol buffer spring.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 8:00:32 PM EDT
I talked with Robert Hesse about two weeks ago and they are building a Hesse Kevlar Pistol. He said it would be ready about the middle of May. It will be priced around the 650.00-699.00 area.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 7:41:58 AM EDT
If a guy were to weld a 30 round mag in, all the rules would be out, right? Since it wouldn't be a "semiauto assault pistol" could it have a handguard, forward pistol grip? -Jared
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 7:47:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2002 7:49:23 AM EDT by Kaliburz]
Originally Posted By White_River_Tactical: I talked with Robert Hesse about two weeks ago and they are building a Hesse Kevlar Pistol. He said it would be ready about the middle of May. It will be priced around the 650.00-699.00 area.
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They must be trying to pre sell..... as I stated, the FAC wholesale catalog I saw a dealers stated dealer cost was right at 600. And that magazine was sent to there in Feb!!!!! JsARCLIGHT, How much did the barrel weight after the mods?
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 9:43:38 AM EDT
The barrel I started with was a standard 7 1/2" normal diameter pistol barrel that had a wilson combat A2 muzzlebreak perminantly attached to it with a milled front gas block. I weighed the barrel assembly by itself with the delta ring parts and barrel nut during the building but I can't remember the weight it had as I threw away all the scratch paper I was using while building. From what I remember, the fully assembled lower with buffer was the second heaviest piece with the fully assembled upper with bolt carrier and charging handle being just a little heavier. I think the split was something like 21/25 or something near that, with the barrel assembly being the heaviest part of the upper (the kev upper body and aluminum bolt carrier weigh next to nothing). As for Grizzly660's comment on attached magazines, two things you need to keep in mind: If you use a normal steel pistol buffer, you can't just swing open the upper like a normal AR, you must first unscrew the buffer and remove the cap, guide rod, spacing washer, spring, and spring retainer then you can pull the pin and swing up the upper to load the weapon. And I'm not so sure about the forward grip, even with the fixed magazine. Wouldn't that make the weapon an AOW if the grip is not a threaded attachment?
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 3:24:49 PM EDT
This could get confusing! I won't be able to do it for awhile, as I am only 19, but it would be cool. I could always use the Car buffer/tube, would this cycle a shorter bbl? I just want to build something for fun, and to mess with at the range. Man, I need another job! -Jared
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 6:03:28 AM EDT
From my understanding, the buffer is not responsable for the propper cycling of the weapon, the gas system is. If you get a barrel that is too short without a propper length gas tube, the gun might short-stroke and not propperly feed. It's the same problem the 10 1/2" barreled CAR rifles had back in the '60s, with such a short barrel and gas tube the cyclic rate was all over the map and the report was ear shattering. I chose a CAR buffer tube more for weight and ease of mainenance than how it cycled the action.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 6:42:35 AM EDT
Buffer has as much effect on performance as the gas port. -Cruizer
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 11:39:59 AM EDT
Is there a way to get stripper clips to work with a welded mag? Seems like it would interfere with the bolt catch.. -Jared
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:45:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bwiese: ...can't put a forward grip (NFA!! when on pistol) or regular CAR-style handguard...
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If you where to permanently attach a magazine to this pistol so that it no longer had a detachable magazine, couldn’t you now add a forward pistol grip? I though that the forwarded pistol grip was an assault pistol feature, so what do you think? - Sulaco
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 2:16:07 PM EDT
If you weld or permantly fix a magazine to the gun, it is no longer defined as an assault weapon and could have other features on it. But being a pistol??? That would be another question.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 4:02:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2002 4:31:46 PM EDT by shaggy]
Originally Posted By sulaco:
Originally Posted By bwiese: ...can't put a forward grip (NFA!! when on pistol) or regular CAR-style handguard...
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If you where to permanently attach a magazine to this pistol so that it no longer had a detachable magazine, couldn’t you now add a forward pistol grip? I though that the forwarded pistol grip was an assault pistol feature, so what do you think? - Sulaco
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A forward grip on a pistol (either preban or postban) is a no-no. If the firearm in question has no stock, the forward grip makes it subject to the NFA, and it would have to be registered as an AOW. If the gun in question is a rifle (has a stock), you can, however, have a forward grip (pre or post ban). Welding a mag or drum in place removes pistols and rifles from the statutory definition of an "assault weapon", so the 1994 AWB does not apply. The NFA still does though. Thus, you could weld a 120rd drum in the mag well, add a telestock and all the assault goodies you wanted, including the forward grip. If you didn't want a stock, you could add everything other than the forward grip and (obviously) the stock). Edited to add: By forward grip, I'm talking about a vertical grip, as would be attached to a KAC RIS/RAS; I don't mean handguards. After reading Troy's post below, I think there may some confusion on that point.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 4:03:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 12:26:50 AM EDT
so if you welded the mag, could you have a post ban with a 7-1/2" upper, flash suppressor, CAR stock, and handguards?? if you welded the mag would it still have to be under 50oz, would the lower still have to be registered as a pistol???
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 8:43:46 AM EDT
No, because pistols aren't allowed to have a shoulder stock. If you welded the mag, you could have: a PISTOL, built upon a receiver which has never had a stock attached, with 7-1/2" upper, flash suppressor, bayonet lug and handguards, but NO stock of any kind, and the 50oz weight limit does not apply. or; a RIFLE with a barrel 16" or longer, flash suppressor, CAR stock and bayonet lug and flash suppressor. or; a SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR) with 7-1/2" upper, flash suppressor, CAR stock, handguards and bayonet lug. The SBR with welded mag would give you the configuration you want, but an SBR is a Title 2 firearm like a machinegun. It has to be legal to possess an SBR in your state, and you'd have to submit an ATF Form 1 (application to make an NFA firearm) in duplicate to the ATF with a $200 check for the making tax, and fingerprint cards and photos, and get your local sheriff or other "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" to sign both copies. If you can get the Form 1 application signed off, it's been taking 3 to 6 months to get them back approved, at which time you could make your welded-magazine SBR.
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