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Posted: 5/13/2004 5:58:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 6:49:53 PM EST by Wingnut116ACW]
Okay, I know it is a bit far-fetched but bear with me. I have been thinking about the robotic gun platform Bruce Willis built in the movie Jackal. With current technology the same system could be scaled down (say AR-15 size) and made for relatively little money and in a small package. Question is, what (if any) laws are there against say making a rifle able to be controlled remotely? Call it an excercize in creative shooting.

And secondly, would anyone want one? Having sat through many many many months of electronics schooling lately and having nothing on my mind other than electronics and fascination with weaponry I couldnt help but put together a schematic for a simplified version of it.

I guess I just have too much time on my hands.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:00:41 PM EST
why?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:02:20 PM EST
Ahh, Grasshopper, why does the dog toungue his testicles? Because he can.

Honestly, just a hypothetical project born out of an overactive imagination.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:11:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 6:12:39 PM EST by P806]
I like it, I do. Remote hydrolics and electric motors interfaced with digital technology have always interested me.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:14:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Triumph955i:
why?



'cuz its cool thats why

I would like to do it as well it would be fun
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:15:56 PM EST
Actually the one I thought up used no hydraulics. It used 2 DC motors and a solenoid using relay logic. I worked it out using a key fob remote with a range of around 125 feet (doing away with the cellular modem in the Jackal) and a video feed from the camera. The schematic was quite simple, I put it on paper in 2 hours or so.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:17:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
Okay, I know it is a bit far-fetched but bear with me. I have been thinking about the robotic gun platform Bruce Willis built in the movie Jackal. With current technology the same system could be scaled down (say AR-15 size) and made for relatively little money and in a small package. Question is, what (if any) laws are there against say making a rifle able to be controlled remotely? Call it an excercize in creative shooting.

And secondly, would anyone want one? Having sat through many many many months of electronics schooling lately and having nothing on my mind other than electronics and fascination with weaponry I couldnt help but put together a schematic for a simplified version of it.

I guess I just have too much time on my hands.



OH yea! But only if you can get it to bump fire.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:19:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 6:21:57 PM EST by DsrtEgl50]
You may want to talk to the ATF about that. IIRC they've deemed that electronic motors to operate the trigger mechanism of a firearm are considered machineguns.

I could be wrong, because I'm only going on memory from looking at something similar before.

ETA: It's a great idea, though. Would definately make a neat toy.

Jonathan
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:23:21 PM EST
I considered the machine gun aspect of it, so I designed it not using a reciprocating motor but a solenoid. A solenoid exerts a single rearward pressure (just like pulling the trigger manually). And when actuated, it pulls the trigger once for every press of the remote button. There is no way with that system that it can go full auto. One button push = one round down range.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:23:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By DsrtEgl50:
You may want to talk to the ATF about that. IIRC they've deemed that electronic motors to operate the trigger mechanism of a firearm are considered machineguns.

I could be wrong, because I'm only going on memory from looking at something similar before.

ETA: It's a great idea, though. Would definately make a neat toy.

Jonathan



FYI: The ATF is NOT a legislative body.
and besides, there is a second amendment - does "shall not be infringed" ring a bell?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:27:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

Originally Posted By DsrtEgl50:
You may want to talk to the ATF about that. IIRC they've deemed that electronic motors to operate the trigger mechanism of a firearm are considered machineguns.

I could be wrong, because I'm only going on memory from looking at something similar before.

ETA: It's a great idea, though. Would definately make a neat toy.

Jonathan



FYI: The ATF is NOT a legislative body.
and besides, there is a second amendment - does "shall not be infringed" ring a bell?



Does the term prison rape mean anything to you?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:30:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:33:26 PM EST
Regardless, I just wanted to mention my prior research into the area before you find yourself on the wrong end of the short stick. If you've got the schematics for it, it doesn't hurt to ask to be sure you're in the clear. Solenoids can still be made to reciprocate.

Or you could just build the damn thing and have fun with it. To hell with consequences...

Sorry for being the buzzkill of the thread, it wasn't my intention.

Jonathan
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:36:18 PM EST
Interesting idea.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:37:49 PM EST
I appreciate your concern in that area. Very true solenoids can be made to reciprocate but in the current configuration, one would have to gut the entire wiring and design one from scratch. You and I both know that the guys at the BATF can make a pack of gum and a paperclip a "machine gun" whether or not it was designed that way just to win a conviction. I am going to do a lot of reading up on the law before I actually assmeble this thing but I won't run it by the tech branch just so as not to give them any ideas for new bans. My main concern is the mechanical aspect. I do electronics and RF stuff not mechanical. I just need to find a good pan/tilt head and a steady heavy tripod.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:00:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

Originally Posted By DsrtEgl50:
You may want to talk to the ATF about that. IIRC they've deemed that electronic motors to operate the trigger mechanism of a firearm are considered machineguns.

I could be wrong, because I'm only going on memory from looking at something similar before.

ETA: It's a great idea, though. Would definately make a neat toy.

Jonathan



FYI: The ATF is NOT a legislative body.
and besides, there is a second amendment - does "shall not be infringed" ring a bell?



Does the term prison rape mean anything to you?



LMAO!
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:03:53 PM EST
Incidentally, is anyone on here a mechanical engineer or something of a similar sort? This is the sort of fun project that people can really get sucked into. But my mechanical skills can't carry me through this. The electrical system would be awesome, but it would be on a popsicle stick and duct tape tripod if it were left up to me.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:13:00 PM EST


FYI: The ATF is NOT a legislative body.



Tell them that.



and besides, there is a second amendment - does "shall not be infringed" ring a bell?



I say again...

Whether they are or are not is immaterial. Constitutionality should have been enough reason to challenge NFA '34. $200 was a lot of money back then...
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:14:36 PM EST
Well if you need space to build it I got a big shed.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:21:15 PM EST
The beauty of the design is that it doesnt take up much space. The electronics portion would only take up an area the size of say a cigar box or smaller. The main bulk would be the tripod and pan/tilt assembly. I can do the wiring here while I see about getting said tripod and engineering the pan/tilt assembly. With those wireless 2.4 Ghz cameras $79 with downconverters and the wireless control and RF reciever assembly being around $100, total cost should be pretty low especially since I have the camera anyway (just gotta get a mount for it to cowitness the EOTech sight).
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:28:26 PM EST
As far as pan/tilt assembly, why reinvent the wheel? CCTV systems use pan/tilt assemblies that are pretty sturdy (especially the all weather ones). There are even some some that are wireless controlled (although someone well versed in electronics could convert one to wireless).

Dave
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:31:04 PM EST
Thwy already have it . I saw it on History Chanel a few months ago . Snipers use a robot with camers to get the rifle in postion , and pull the trigger while sitting in a seperate area .
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:31:32 PM EST
I'd definitely be looking into stepper motors on high ratio gearboxes. It's the only way to get the kind of precision you would need. Have Fun!
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:32:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:33:27 PM EST by raven]

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

Originally Posted By DsrtEgl50:
You may want to talk to the ATF about that. IIRC they've deemed that electronic motors to operate the trigger mechanism of a firearm are considered machineguns.

I could be wrong, because I'm only going on memory from looking at something similar before.

ETA: It's a great idea, though. Would definately make a neat toy.

Jonathan



FYI: The ATF is NOT a legislative body.
and besides, there is a second amendment - does "shall not be infringed" ring a bell?



You tell them that as they throw you in a room and throw away the room.

[edited] Oh, I see other people have noticed the ATF's nuanced approach to firearm laws.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 2:19:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Triumph955i:
why?



That's what the anti's say when you tell them about your AR. They want you to have to justify it.



I just had a thought about an electric motor that spins a cam inside the trigger guard... <SLAP!>

OK, that thought is gone.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 2:42:09 AM EST
Using DTMF (dual-tone multi frequency) decoders and solenoids, you can control a simple robotic machine from anywhere in the world that can provide telephone service. We use them all the time for camera placement

www.icircuits.com/prod1.htm

Using 8 relays controlled from a telephone keypad, you've got:
(imagine a telephone keypad as a controller)

2> up
8> down
4> left
6> right
7> on
9> off
1> zoom in
3> zoom out

Pretty basic stuff
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 2:49:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
Using DTMF (dual-tone multi frequency) decoders and solenoids, you can control a simple robotic machine from anywhere in the world that can provide telephone service. We use them all the time for camera placement

www.icircuits.com/prod1.htm

Using 8 relays controlled from a telephone keypad, you've got:
(imagine a telephone keypad as a controller)

2> up
8> down
4> left
6> right
7> on
9> off
1> zoom in
3> zoom out

Pretty basic stuff



...which conviently leaves "5" the "fire" button.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 2:54:36 AM EST
That is why the USA is going to fail. Everyone cowers and lets it be.
I wish the SCOTUS would rule againsts all this shit.


Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

Originally Posted By DsrtEgl50:
You may want to talk to the ATF about that. IIRC they've deemed that electronic motors to operate the trigger mechanism of a firearm are considered machineguns.

I could be wrong, because I'm only going on memory from looking at something similar before.

ETA: It's a great idea, though. Would definately make a neat toy.

Jonathan



FYI: The ATF is NOT a legislative body.
and besides, there is a second amendment - does "shall not be infringed" ring a bell?



OK. You do it and be the legal guinea pig for the rest of us. I guess we can see you back here in 10-20 years?

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 3:31:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kodiak-AK:
Thwy already have it . I saw it on History Chanel a few months ago . Snipers use a robot with camers to get the rifle in postion , and pull the trigger while sitting in a seperate area .



i saw that one too
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 3:47:23 AM EST
The Air Force, w/Sandia National Labs, is working on a very similar system, a machine gun on a stick...www.inmm.org/topics/contents/pdfs/ROWS.pdf

They're looking at putting a SAW on the stand, and as the pictures show even a Barrett M82.

The two hard parts are video quality to verify the target, and slaving the video camera and sights to get same point of aim.

The AF version is supposed to be hardened both for weather and to prevent someone from shooting back at the thing and destroying it.

I've seen the demo. Works really well, the only operational problem is the maintenance troops in the areas this thing is going to be deployed are very nervous about bored security cops playing with the thing. Rightly so, if you ask me.

NOTE: .pdf file. Requires Adobe Acrobat to read.

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 3:52:28 AM EST
Why don't you build one of these instead.









They all shoot guns... and you can tell the ATF to blow you if they have a problem with what you made.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 3:57:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 4:39:33 AM EST by Brohawk]
The company I work for (in another division) is developing a counter sniper unit. It will detect a round being fired and calculate its point of origin. I'll see if I can find something on it.
www.aaicorp.com/defense/em/pdc.htm
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 4:38:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 6:45:13 AM EST
That is quite similar to the setup I was invisioning only for an AR-15 and significantly less expensive and probably quite a bit less rugged. I know that a few companies are looking to build platforms for the military and such, I just got to thinking about how relatively simple it would be to make one the unwashed masses could play with. The idea of making long ranged shots with this, however appealing, are a bit beyond the scope of my budget. My idea was just for a carbine mount able to hit a dinner plate at a hundred yards. Having a decent resolution digital camera cowitnessing my Eotech should solve any aiming problems.

Using DTMF is a very interesting idea with the only drawback getting a real-time video feed from the camera and modulating it over the cell phone link while sending commands. It is doable but probably outside of my budget currently. I was just thinking of a mark1 mod0 unit made with electronics I have around the house. I could easily program a PIC to make it as elaborate as money allows. Hell, it wouldnt be much of a stretch to wire the control to a 3-D sensor to make a head-mounted control, but I am staying simple for now.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 7:44:29 AM EST
Probably could get around the ATF problem by making it a single shot .50BMG. If it is accurate enough you're only going to need one shot most of the time anyway.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 8:31:59 AM EST
Check the website they have one for ar15/m16
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 8:50:19 AM EST
i would rather pull the trigger myself
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 9:14:09 AM EST
I like it! Could you build one for my new .300 WSM bolt gun? It hurts my shoulder.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 9:20:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By DsrtEgl50:
You may want to talk to the ATF about that. IIRC they've deemed that electronic motors to operate the trigger mechanism of a firearm are considered machineguns.

I could be wrong, because I'm only going on memory from looking at something similar before.

ETA: It's a great idea, though. Would definately make a neat toy.

Jonathan



Only if it fires or can easily be made to fire automatically...

You could allways pick up an 'Etronix' (electronic ignition) Rem 700 from CDNN, but then you'd need a bolt-operating motor...
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 9:22:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By limaxray:
The Air Force, w/Sandia National Labs, is working on a very similar system, a machine gun on a stick...www.inmm.org/topics/contents/pdfs/ROWS.pdf

They're looking at putting a SAW on the stand, and as the pictures show even a Barrett M82.

The two hard parts are video quality to verify the target, and slaving the video camera and sights to get same point of aim.

The AF version is supposed to be hardened both for weather and to prevent someone from shooting back at the thing and destroying it.

I've seen the demo. Works really well, the only operational problem is the maintenance troops in the areas this thing is going to be deployed are very nervous about bored security cops playing with the thing. Rightly so, if you ask me.

NOTE: .pdf file. Requires Adobe Acrobat to read.




Easy solution there: 2 cameras....

A search cam, and a tracking cam...

Tracking cam looks thru a regular riflescope...
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 10:20:02 AM EST
if you do be sure to post lots of pics
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:09:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By a-one:
Actually here is one made by a company called Precision Remote

www.precisionremotes.com/images/SitePhotos/T-250.jpg



We should put one of those on every rooftop at every intersection in Fallujah.
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