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Posted: 3/13/2011 6:38:40 PM EST
So I was perusing shootingtimes.com, and came across this article: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/12_great_12-gauge_loads_for_defense_111810/index1.html

There is a wide variation of loads in this list, including a couple of "exotic" ones. The thought that occurred to me was, does it matter? Are there any 12 gauge buckshot loads that are unlikely to almost instantly incapacitate, in one shot to COM, any drug-crazed intruder who is hell-bent on hurting me? Is there a compelling reason to not simply get whatever 00, 000 or even #1 load that is on sale at the local fun store?
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 6:43:27 PM EST
Being shot with the ballistic equivalent of 18 shots from a .32ACP, all at once, should pretty much do it.

The fancy loads with the fish hooks, chains and nails are just a waste of money.

Link Posted: 3/13/2011 6:49:43 PM EST
For what it was worth, I was out at the range last week and played around with my shotty a bit and decided to see what damage Remington 00 Buckshot magnum would do....at 25 yards.

I put up a LEO "bad guy" target, sighted in my 870 Express Tactical with the ghost rings center mass and pulled the trigger.

Let's just put it this way: that would be one very hurt bad buy, four or five pellets into his chest (heart and spine and stomach).

At 25 yards, mind you.

Since you are going to shoot an intruder at less than twenty feet most of the time...well, you do the math!

Link Posted: 3/13/2011 6:50:30 PM EST
Even bargain basement 12 GA buck well placed is going to be an argument-ender.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 6:50:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:
Being shot with the ballistic equivalent of 18 shots from a .32ACP, all at once, should pretty much do it.

The fancy loads with the fish hooks, chains and nails are just a waste of money.



You better not be bad mouthing the Dragon's Breath...

Link Posted: 3/13/2011 6:52:36 PM EST
I got 000 loaded in my HD 870. Those found here at night, will be found here in the morning - with a big ol' hole in them.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 6:55:25 PM EST
With 00 buckshot you have several components for a quality shell:

1. Plated shot. Copper/Nickel plated shot is harder, will penetrate more, and will prevent cold weld of 2 pellets sticking together.

2. Buffering. Usually very small plastic granules. This provides a cushion for the pellets as they are fired, and will help prevent the pellets from deformation.

3. Shot Cup. A good shot cup will improve your patterns.

4. Shot quality. Softer lead will deform, harder shot will not.

5. Hull quality. Cheaper hulls will deform faster in your magazine tube.

A quality shell will pattern much tighter, and be consistent. Cheaper loads will not pattern well, and won't be as consistent.

I personally buy stuff like Federal Tactical or Federal Vital-Shok since it has the best components for my HD shotgun. Now if I just want some to stash away, and to blast at the range....... cheap Super-X will do fine.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 6:56:55 PM EST
I use 00 reduced recoiled loads in my home defense shotgun. It makes it a little more manageable for my wife.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 6:57:17 PM EST
I know someone who was present at an OIS where someone took a 12ga shot to the chest and continued to fight. Don't get cocky.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:07:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:
Being shot with the ballistic equivalent of 18 shots from a .32ACP, all at once, should pretty much do it.

The fancy loads with the fish hooks, chains and nails are just a waste of money.



And will most likely result in a LOT more trouble for you, post-incident.

"The crazed and demonic homeowner was deliberately trying to maim my client, who was just trying to find his next meal"
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:08:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I know someone who was present at an OIS where someone took a 12ga shot to the chest and continued to fight. Don't get cocky.



Wow, that's scary. My philosophy has always been that, once you decide to shoot, keep shooting until the assailant is no longer a threat. But I think that I would have found that... rather disheartening.

I assume that he expired shortly thereafter?
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:16:39 PM EST
Correct.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:22:51 PM EST
I'm a #4 buck guy.. The reason why is I buy it coyote calling and it is alway on hand.. 41 pellets of .24 cal. at 1200fps is just fine for HD.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:28:20 PM EST
What about the new rounds from Winchester with 3x 00 Buck and a Slug
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:32:10 PM EST
I say use whatever.

I use 0 buck because it is only a tiny bit smaller than 00 (00 = .33"... 0=.32") but most shells have 12 pellets of 0 v. 9 of 00 at the same velocity. Very minor difference, but 3 more holes that are only one hundredth of an inch less in diameter can only cause more damage.

Any quality buckshot (even #4 buck) is better than birdshot.

You will not likely see any report of a bad guy that takes one round of buckshot to the chest and a second to the face that continues to attack. You should practice and train accordingly.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:37:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:38:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I know someone who was present at an OIS where someone took a 12ga shot to the chest and continued to fight. Don't get cocky.


I was. Actually, about a minute after he was shot, and I assisted in handcuffing him. Fed Tactical, 2 3/4" buck, from an 18" 870.
He took the entire pattern; shot was about 15'. Had perforated left lung/larynx/esophagus/pericardium/aorta/valve torn off. Perfect CM hit. He fought just fine for another 45 seconds or so, and this after the foot pursuit/fight with three cops, whom he pretty much threw around like ragdolls. Had a prybar with which he'd opened up some basehead's skull before we got there.

He was a week past the gate, and was a weight-yard monster. He also had just smoked a huge cocaine rock. Whatever those may have contributed, he had no CNS hits - none. The magic BB didn't find his spine.

Amazingly little blood outside, until he started pumping out his mouth and nose, just before he died.


But I also saw a burglar go into shock and die on us after victim's 158-grain RN .38 Special round traversed his tricep without an arterial hit. Maybe he saw too many movies and thought he was supposed to die.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:46:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By wunbadweel:

But I also saw a burglar go into shock and die on us after victim's 158-grain RN .38 Special round traversed his tricep without an arterial hit. Maybe he saw too many movies and thought he was supposed to die.

is it bad if I lol'd
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 7:48:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Magurgle:

Originally Posted By wunbadweel:

But I also saw a burglar go into shock and die on us after victim's 158-grain RN .38 Special round traversed his tricep without an arterial hit. Maybe he saw too many movies and thought he was supposed to die.

is it bad if I lol'd


FWIW, the victim wore no handcuffs over the deal, and this late 80s central CA. Pretty cut and dried.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 9:06:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I know someone who was present at an OIS where someone took a 12ga shot to the chest and continued to fight. Don't get cocky.



That is one of the variables that needs to be taken into consideration.


Link Posted: 3/13/2011 9:15:22 PM EST
Personally, if someone didn't immediately drop from the first load of buckshot I would be inclined to deliver another. Purely as a parting gift you understand.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 9:25:57 PM EST
Shot pattern is one of the bigger considerations. The federal "Flite Control" has an incredibly good pattern out of a 18" cylinder barrel.


Some testing I did with it using an 18" 870 (my 930spx 18" patterns the same too). Distance was 15 yards.

This was Winchester Ranger 00buck





And the Federal Flite Control 00buck


Link Posted: 3/13/2011 10:14:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By ptmccain:
...shotty...


Link Posted: 3/13/2011 10:53:10 PM EST
5.56 > 12ga

Lighter, faster follow-up shots, more capacity, more maneuverable even if not SBR'd, ability to mount a can.


Just sayin'....

Link Posted: 3/13/2011 10:55:29 PM EST
Several years ago S&B 2 3/4" 12ga buckshot load was actually slightly longer than 2 3/4". Couldnt fit a full loading in the mag of my 590a1, had to go a round down. Not sure if this would happen in a standard length tube or if it has been changed by S&B since.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 11:19:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I know someone who was present at an OIS where someone took a 12ga shot to the chest and continued to fight. Don't get cocky.


Was it a single shot 12 gauge?

Link Posted: 3/14/2011 12:01:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By 220ST:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I know someone who was present at an OIS where someone took a 12ga shot to the chest and continued to fight. Don't get cocky.


Was it a single shot 12 gauge?



By the sound of it the patrolman with the shotgun thought it was for a little while before the matter was settled.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 5:19:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By ptmccain:
For what it was worth, I was out at the range last week and played around with my shotty a bit and decided to see what damage Remington 00 Buckshot magnum would do....at 25 yards.

I put up a LEO "bad guy" target, sighted in my 870 Express Tactical with the ghost rings center mass and pulled the trigger.

Let's just put it this way: that would be one very hurt bad buy, four or five pellets into his chest (heart and spine and stomach).

At 25 yards, mind you.

Since you are going to shoot an intruder at less than twenty feet most of the time...well, you do the math!



I did similar at 50 yds with my NEF 18" barrel pardner protector. On a bad guy target I had one (1) pellet on the paper about 1" to the left of the targets right arm. With slugs it was 6-8" left of POA.
This was not premium 00 or slugs, It was the bulk pack from Walmart. This was off sandbags, I really think this sucks, but will try again with some premium loads before I get rid of the scattergun.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 6:05:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By wunbadweel:
Originally Posted By Magurgle:

Originally Posted By wunbadweel:

But I also saw a burglar go into shock and die on us after victim's 158-grain RN .38 Special round traversed his tricep without an arterial hit. Maybe he saw too many movies and thought he was supposed to die.

is it bad if I lol'd


FWIW, the victim wore no handcuffs over the deal, and this late 80s central CA. Pretty cut and dried.

It reminded me of a story where on friend killed another friends gerbil or hamster, by looking at it and going "Blah!!" loud with some hand movements, the little pet went "weee" and rolled over dead

Link Posted: 3/14/2011 6:25:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Woosaa:
Several years ago S&B 2 3/4" 12ga buckshot load was actually slightly longer than 2 3/4". Couldnt fit a full loading in the mag of my 590a1, had to go a round down. Not sure if this would happen in a standard length tube or if it has been changed by S&B since.

2 3/4 refers to the chamber length and I believe the length of the shell after being fired IIRC, and since shotguns headspace off of the rim the length of the loaded shell really doesn't matter as long as it is under not over the chamber length.


Link Posted: 3/14/2011 6:30:53 AM EST
Yes it does matter. The most important part is shot placement.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 6:37:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 6:40:12 AM EST
There is only one load-Federal 00 buck with flite control wad
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 7:03:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
There is only one load-Federal 00 buck with flite control wad




It works pretty good

However, I typically use Federal Vital-Shok in my HD shotguns which is the standard power load without the Flite-Control.

I like tight patterns, but Flite-Control is a bit too tight IMO.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 7:09:41 AM EST
Don't forget, all you have to do is rack the slide and any bad guy will loose his bowels and run away crying!
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 7:22:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2011 7:23:13 AM EST by TrojanMan]
What's the hive opinion of the Aguila minishells?

They're essentially "reduced recoil" loads that are shortened down to less than 2 inches. Apparently, you can cram nine of them in a standard 5-shot tube.

I don't actually own any shotguns (yet), I'm just curious.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 7:29:03 AM EST
I think any serious buckshot would put the hurt on a BG.

I will offer that low-recoil buckshot should allow for faster follow ups. I guess there is some compromise on velocity and effective range, but if we're talking a home defense round, I'm alright with that.

If you run an auto, make sure whatever you use cycles well.

My saiga runs great with Win. Ranger Low Recoil 00 Buck.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 7:31:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
What's the hive opinion of the Aguila minishells?


Cute, but gimmicky and prone to jam in many shotguns unless the follower is modified, which then creates a problem when using normal ammo. Pass.

Link Posted: 3/14/2011 8:02:23 AM EST
Here is a single shot of a 3" Winchester Super X #1 (not 00 buck as written on the wall) fired from a Mossberg 500 with a 22" Improved Cylendar choke:




From this far away:



I think that would probably be your best chance at ending a bad guy's life with a firearm. There are always exceptions, but you would be hard pressed to do more damage with a single shot. Those are 1" orange dots, making the pattern 6-7" from my estimation.

Would you like to know more - http://fateoflegions.blogspot.com/2011/02/home-defense-guns.html
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 8:07:55 AM EST
Several years ago, a member I cant recall, posted a video here of a man being shot at about 10' with a shotgun and what could only be assumed to be a buckshot load. The video looked to be from a Latin American country during some kind of jailhouse riot. The guy that was shot fell in his tracks.

Buckshot at close range is very lethal. A CoM hit and the BG is gonna be DRT.


I use Winchester XX 2 3/4"
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 8:10:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:
5.56 > 12ga

Lighter, faster follow-up shots, more capacity, more maneuverable even if not SBR'd, ability to mount a can.


Just sayin'....




both are extremely effective. Each has trade offs and advantages. I would feel supremely confident in my ability to face a threat equipped with either.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 8:43:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:
5.56 > 12ga

Lighter, faster follow-up shots, more capacity, more maneuverable even if not SBR'd, ability to mount a can.


Just sayin'....



"From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use."

Just sayin'
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 8:51:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:
Being shot with the ballistic equivalent of 18 shots from a .32ACP, all at once, should pretty much do it.

The fancy loads with the fish hooks, chains and nails are just a waste of money.



You better not be bad mouthing the Dragon's Breath...



LOL.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 8:52:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By dw_duck:
I use 00 reduced recoiled loads in my home defense shotgun. It makes it a little more manageable for my wife.


Same - but I also enjoy the reduced recoil.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 8:55:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
There is only one load-Federal 00 buck with flite control wad

Same policy in my house.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 9:00:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By atomicglock:
Don't forget, all you have to do is rack the slide and any bad guy will loose his bowels and run away crying!


Actually heard that one the weekend before the last, when I overheard three guys talking about guns.

The first was saying how he had an AK because "that .22 just gets their attention."

After gun expert #2 said all you needed was an empty 12ga, the third guy gave him a VERY dry look and said,"Why would it be empty?"

It went down hill from there.

Link Posted: 3/14/2011 9:03:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2011 9:04:35 AM EST by 41Fan]
I vote for Federal Premium Tactical. I shot some at a B27 target the otherday, and at 15 yards it just cuts one big hole out of the paper. I had an LEO cousin shoot a burglar with a 12ga, 00 load. The guy was hit and went down. He then jumped up and took off running like a gazelle. They barely caught him.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 9:12:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By RutgersHellfish:
Originally Posted By dw_duck:
I use 00 reduced recoiled loads in my home defense shotgun. It makes it a little more manageable for my wife.


Same - but I also enjoy the reduced recoil.


Same - again.

Link Posted: 3/14/2011 9:13:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
What's the hive opinion of the Aguila minishells?

They're essentially "reduced recoil" loads that are shortened down to less than 2 inches. Apparently, you can cram nine of them in a standard 5-shot tube.

I don't actually own any shotguns (yet), I'm just curious.

No personal experience with them, but they can cause trouble feeding I have heard...
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 9:20:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By wunbadweel:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I know someone who was present at an OIS where someone took a 12ga shot to the chest and continued to fight. Don't get cocky.


I was. Actually, about a minute after he was shot, and I assisted in handcuffing him. Fed Tactical, 2 3/4" buck, from an 18" 870.
He took the entire pattern; shot was about 15'. Had perforated left lung/larynx/esophagus/pericardium/aorta/valve torn off. Perfect CM hit. He fought just fine for another 45 seconds or so, and this after the foot pursuit/fight with three cops, whom he pretty much threw around like ragdolls. Had a prybar with which he'd opened up some basehead's skull before we got there.

He was a week past the gate, and was a weight-yard monster. He also had just smoked a huge cocaine rock. Whatever those may have contributed, he had no CNS hits - none. The magic BB didn't find his spine.

Amazingly little blood outside, until he started pumping out his mouth and nose, just before he died.


But I also saw a burglar go into shock and die on us after victim's 158-grain RN .38 Special round traversed his tricep without an arterial hit. Maybe he saw too many movies and thought he was supposed to die.


That must of been unnerving as hell! I'm thankful you and your fellow officers made it through that ordeal.
Link Posted: 3/14/2011 9:22:44 AM EST
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