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Posted: 7/22/2018 5:08:06 PM EDT
Brothers,

I need some help selecting rifle plates for our department. We are in the beginning phases of starting a Rescue Taskforce program for active shooters. Two of our medics and myself are attending several trainings in the coming weeks to help us set up our protocols. We are attending so we have a good handle on tactics and equipment, because you all know we don't have tons of money to "test" stuff out. We were given plate carriers from the local SWAT team that they no longer use. We put in Pointblank Vision IIIA soft armor for now, but I am looking at plate options.
The classes we are taking are:
- Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training
- Tactical Combat Casualty Care
- Tactical Emergency Casualty Care
and we are looking at a TEMS course.

We need help on vests and plates: we are going to soft armor on all ems calls with an external carrier, but we need to be able to quickly upgrade with plates for active shooter.

Any help is appreciated.
Link Posted: 7/22/2018 7:17:35 PM EDT
Disclaimer: Not a cop, just saw this in the "newest discussions" tab and thought I'd pop in.

Do you guys have a budget? Weight limit? Do you need various size options? Primary threat concerns?

You said this is for an active shooter team so I'm assuming your threat profile is primarily 5.56, .308, and 7.62x39 ammunition of various types. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 7/22/2018 7:36:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CAKEPWNER:
Disclaimer: Not a cop, just saw this in the "newest discussions" tab and thought I'd pop in.

Do you guys have a budget? Weight limit? Do you need various size options? Primary threat concerns?

You said this is for an active shooter team so I'm assuming your threat profile is primarily 5.56, .308, and 7.62x39 ammunition of various types. Correct me if I'm wrong.
View Quote
Our budget is $8000 (maybe more if needed) to equip 3 squads(3 man crew) and 2 engines (3 man crew). As far as weight we do not have one, I want my guys protected but I don't want them to be throwing on 30# of plates either. As far as sizes mostly looking at L to XL size guys. And yes we are looking at 5.56, .308 and 7.62. We are going soft armor most of the time which will mainly be pistol caliber, but we know we need plates and helmets for increased threat conditions.
Link Posted: 7/22/2018 8:36:42 PM EDT
hi

Off topic, and you didn't ask -

Going to a couple of schools; please don't let that lead you into thinking you'll have a 'good handle' on tactics. Highly consider pestering your local law enforcement and school security agencies, and figure out how to mesh with them. Their concepts may not be the ones being pushed out by the schools you attend, for instance.

I have run into this several times in other public safety arenas. Just finished a discussion awhile back with a dispatcher group trying to create active killer response protocols. Not once did they stop and ask what the police departments they served might have to say on the topic.

NOT saying this is your case. Just saying that new term 'silo' really rears its head here.

Also, armor is nice. But it is heavy, bulky, restrictive and will make you a heat casualty. Whatever you use, you should really see how your rescue gear will integrate with it. You may have to settle for less coverage, or lower threat level in order to manpack enough trauma stuff for the number of casualties you may reasonably expect to encounter and treat.

... Just food for thought. Also check with firehouse subs and grants.gov in case 8k won't swing what you want to do.
Link Posted: 7/22/2018 8:45:48 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By IronMedic:
Our budget is $8000 (maybe more if needed) to equip 3 squads(3 man crew) and 2 engines (3 man crew). As far as weight we do not have one, I want my guys protected but I don't want them to be throwing on 30# of plates either. As far as sizes mostly looking at L to XL size guys. And yes we are looking at 5.56, .308 and 7.62. We are going soft armor most of the time which will mainly be pistol caliber, but we know we need plates and helmets for increased threat conditions.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By IronMedic:
Originally Posted By CAKEPWNER:
Disclaimer: Not a cop, just saw this in the "newest discussions" tab and thought I'd pop in.

Do you guys have a budget? Weight limit? Do you need various size options? Primary threat concerns?

You said this is for an active shooter team so I'm assuming your threat profile is primarily 5.56, .308, and 7.62x39 ammunition of various types. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Our budget is $8000 (maybe more if needed) to equip 3 squads(3 man crew) and 2 engines (3 man crew). As far as weight we do not have one, I want my guys protected but I don't want them to be throwing on 30# of plates either. As far as sizes mostly looking at L to XL size guys. And yes we are looking at 5.56, .308 and 7.62. We are going soft armor most of the time which will mainly be pistol caliber, but we know we need plates and helmets for increased threat conditions.
Sorry, I should have also asked if you require NIJ certification.

As this is the U.S. M855 is fairly common and most polyethylene plates will struggle to stop it at high velocities, so I wouldn't recommend poly plates unless you're looking for absolute minimum weight.

Under the non-NIJ certified category I'd recommend the TenCate 2000SA. Rated for 7.62x39 mild steel core ball ammo, M855, M193, and also tested to IIIA standards. NOT tested against .308 though it should stop penetration. It likely fails BFS testing against .308. Very light plate for what it is, weighing about 5.10 pounds for a 10x12 shooters cut plate. They're also multi-curve, which is what you want if you desire maximum comfort. Average cost is about $400 to $480 per plate depending on size, so they aren't a cheap option. I averaged the cost at $450 a plate and came out to $13,500 to equip 15 men, two plates per man, so it's pushing pretty far out of your budget.

The Hesco 3610 is a very similar plate and is NIJ certified level III so carries certification against .308, but it carries the same price tag as the 2000SA.

Stepping down in cost is the Hesco L210, another non-NIJ-certified "special threat" plate like the TenCate 2000SA. Rated for M193, M67, M855, M43, and 7.62x39 API but NOT rated for .308, same situation as with the 2000SA. This is also single curve only so you lose some comfort factor but the plate averages $200 per plate, coming out to only $6000 to outfit your whole team.

For something in the middle there's the HighCom 34i1, a level III/IV plate, achieving level III protection when used stand alone, level IV when worn over IIIA soft armor. Cost can be from $340 to $500 depending on size, cut, and curvature options. Again, this plate is not NIJ certified. Weight will be from 6.5 to 7.7 pounds assuming Medium and up in size.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are of course many other options out there to explore. I'll get back to you with others if I think of something. @sawlaw1 knows a fair bit and might be able to add something to this conversation.

On the price, you may be able to get discounts due to being LEO and this being a departmental purchase I'm assuming. Being a large order will help as well. Point being don't immediately discount plates that seem out of your budget as LEO and bulk purchase discounts may get the price down a fair bit.

Also, a note about plate size, check those carries you got. You will be limited in choosing plate size by the carrier size. Some carriers are more forgiving than others. Assuming a carrier is sized for 10x12 it may also fit SAPI Medium or even SAPI Large, but some won't be so forgiving. Check plate dimensions and make sure they'll fit in the carrier before ordering.

Please let me know if you have other questions, I'll do my best to answer.
Link Posted: 7/22/2018 9:14:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By high_order1:
hi

Off topic, and you didn't ask -

Going to a couple of schools; please don't let that lead you into thinking you'll have a 'good handle' on tactics. Highly consider pestering your local law enforcement and school security agencies, and figure out how to mesh with them. Their concepts may not be the ones being pushed out by the schools you attend, for instance.

I have run into this several times in other public safety arenas. Just finished a discussion awhile back with a dispatcher group trying to create active killer response protocols. Not once did they stop and ask what the police departments they served might have to say on the topic.

NOT saying this is your case. Just saying that new term 'silo' really rears its head here.

Also, armor is nice. But it is heavy, bulky, restrictive and will make you a heat casualty. Whatever you use, you should really see how your rescue gear will integrate with it. You may have to settle for less coverage, or lower threat level in order to manpack enough trauma stuff for the number of casualties you may reasonably expect to encounter and treat.

... Just food for thought. Also check with firehouse subs and grants.gov in case 8k won't swing what you want to do.
View Quote
No this is the start of a county wide Police/Fire/EMS program. The issue is getting Fire/EMS training and protocols up to entering a warm zone, which is new except for our SWAT Medics. As for our rescue packs for this we are looking at a max weight of 10#. We are working with our local LE for suggestions but this is new for them also as before they would wait on SWAT. We are also working the grant side of things looking at helping with some of those costs.
Link Posted: 7/22/2018 9:18:44 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CAKEPWNER:

Sorry, I should have also asked if you require NIJ certification.

As this is the U.S. M855 is fairly common and most polyethylene plates will struggle to stop it at high velocities, so I wouldn't recommend poly plates unless you're looking for absolute minimum weight.

Under the non-NIJ certified category I'd recommend the TenCate 2000SA. Rated for 7.62x39 mild steel core ball ammo, M855, M193, and also tested to IIIA standards. NOT tested against .308 though it should stop penetration. It likely fails BFS testing against .308. Very light plate for what it is, weighing about 5.10 pounds for a 10x12 shooters cut plate. They're also multi-curve, which is what you want if you desire maximum comfort. Average cost is about $400 to $480 per plate depending on size, so they aren't a cheap option. I averaged the cost at $450 a plate and came out to $13,500 to equip 15 men, two plates per man, so it's pushing pretty far out of your budget.

The Hesco 3610 is a very similar plate and is NIJ certified level III so carries certification against .308, but it carries the same price tag as the 2000SA.

Stepping down in cost is the Hesco L210, another non-NIJ-certified "special threat" plate like the TenCate 2000SA. Rated for M193, M67, M855, M43, and 7.62x39 API but NOT rated for .308, same situation as with the 2000SA. This is also single curve only so you lose some comfort factor but the plate averages $200 per plate, coming out to only $6000 to outfit your whole team.

For something in the middle there's the HighCom 34i1, a level III/IV plate, achieving level III protection when used stand alone, level IV when worn over IIIA soft armor. Cost can be from $340 to $500 depending on size, cut, and curvature options. Again, this plate is not NIJ certified. Weight will be from 6.5 to 7.7 pounds assuming Medium and up in size.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are of course many other options out there to explore. I'll get back to you with others if I think of something. @sawlaw1 knows a fair bit and might be able to add something to this conversation.

On the price, you may be able to get discounts due to being LEO and this being a departmental purchase I'm assuming. Being a large order will help as well. Point being don't immediately discount plates that seem out of your budget as LEO and bulk purchase discounts may get the price down a fair bit.

Also, a note about plate size, check those carries you got. You will be limited in choosing plate size by the carrier size. Some carriers are more forgiving than others. Assuming a carrier is sized for 10x12 it may also fit SAPI Medium or even SAPI Large, but some won't be so forgiving. Check plate dimensions and make sure they'll fit in the carrier before ordering.

Please let me know if you have other questions, I'll do my best to answer.
View Quote
Thanks for the info CAKEPWNER, yeah we are not set on a carrier as of yet. The ones the three of us have are the old extras from the SWAT Team, so we are looking at what will work best for us.
Link Posted: 7/22/2018 9:23:16 PM EDT
IM sent
Link Posted: 7/22/2018 9:31:30 PM EDT
IM sent
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