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Posted: 12/19/2005 3:16:39 AM EDT
I wonder if they have the guts to do this to Muslims?

TESTING THE FAITH
Christmas magic show sparks outrage
Bible miracles 'recreated' – including making virgin pregnant


Posted: December 17, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

A Christmas magic show on British television claiming to recreate miracles – including making a virgin pregnant – has been condemned by Christian groups.

"The Magic Of Jesus," broadcast on the independent Channel 4, features illusionists Barry Jones and Stuart McLeod attempting to see if eight New Testament "feats" are possible, reports The Sun newspaper of London.

he performers sought to raise a headless corpse from the dead, cure a blind person, feed 5,000 soccer fans with five loaves and two fishes and walk on water, the paper said, but angry Christian leaders said Jones and McLeod are dishonest.

"Maybe these two fraudsters could try being crucified to see if they can rise three days later," said Bishop Michael Reid, founder of television watchdog the Christian Congress for Traditional Values.

"The big difference between a couple of tricksters performing illusions and our Lord's miracles is that Jesus actually healed people, raised the dead and forgave sins," Reid argued.

In the "Virgin Mary" illusion, the performers passed an ultrasound scanner over a woman to demonstrate she was not pregnant. Then, just seconds later, the scanner purportedly picked up a heartbeat, though the woman never had sexual intercourse.

John Beyer of Mediawatch said the program "seems to me a calculated attempt to cause offense."

The show will be broadcast December 28.

www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47941

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:39:50 AM EDT

WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!

Here is my message to everyone (Christians, Jews, women, blacks, midgets, fat people, handicapped, etc): STOP SEARCHING FOR THINGS TO BE OFFENDED ABOUT!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:41:29 AM EDT
Amen

It seems like a hobby to some
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:42:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 3:44:10 AM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!



I do, it's cheeky and sophomoric.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:43:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!

Here is my message to everyone (Christians, Jews, women, blacks, midgets, fat people, handicapped, etc): STOP SEARCHING FOR THINGS TO BE OFFENDED ABOUT!



I take offense to your suggestion that I handicap my searching abilities.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:46:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!

Here is my message to everyone (Christians, Jews, women, blacks, midgets, fat people, handicapped, etc): STOP SEARCHING FOR THINGS TO BE OFFENDED ABOUT!




I am not personally offended . . . but I would be curious to know why these schmucks seem intent on being . . . well, schmucks. Intentionally bagging on a religion on a nationally televised program just for the heck of it . . . somebody is going to take it seriously enough to do you bodily injury. Maybe that is the point . . . they feel ignored.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:46:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 3:46:37 AM EDT by mfingar]


...and Satan was also a majician....his name was Doug Henning.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:48:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 3:50:18 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!

Here is my message to everyone (Christians, Jews, women, blacks, midgets, fat people, handicapped, etc): STOP SEARCHING FOR THINGS TO BE OFFENDED ABOUT!



Tell people that when there are guys who show up in your living room and begin trying to demonstrate that you are an idiot to your family.

I don't get offended by much, but sometimes people are determined to go out of their way to cause offense.

These two "magicians" sound like they are idiots who crave instant fame, and figure the best way to do that is to go out and be outrageous. Their 15 minute clock is already ticking.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:50:37 AM EDT
Well, you have me curious, JW. When is that going to happen?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:05:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Tell people that when there are guys who show up in your living room and begin trying to demonstrate that you are an idiot to your family.


First thing: you can turn off your television. Second thing: Christianity (and Judism to a lessor extent) is the most well-known religion on the planet, thus rife for parody. No one makes jokes about Buddism or Taoism or Shintoism because your average person on the street doesn't know what the deal is. Hell, before 9/11, most people didn't know much about Islam either.


Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I don't get offended by much, but sometimes people are determined to go out of their way to cause offense.


Assuming that is the case, everyone plays into these guys' hands by freaking out. Now, with the media on board, these guy will make more money. Stuff is only shocking if you treat is as if it were shocking.


Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
These two "magicians" sound like they are idiots who crave instant fame, and figure the best way to do that is to go out and be outrageous.


Guess what, you just described 90% of entertainers.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:08:21 AM EDT
if this trickery is called dishonest today, then why is it not considered dishonest 2005 years ago?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:11:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
if this trickery is called dishonest today, then why is it not considered dishonest 2005 years ago?


Four pages and a lock.

(For the record, Mike, I agree, but no good can come from this question.)
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:17:45 AM EDT

"Maybe these two fraudsters could try being crucified to see if they can rise three days later," said Bishop Michael Reid, founder of television watchdog the Christian Congress for Traditional Values.


Another fine Christian gentleman who is a credit to his faith.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:52:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

"Maybe these two fraudsters could try being crucified to see if they can rise three days later," said Bishop Michael Reid, founder of television watchdog the Christian Congress for Traditional Values.


Another fine Christian gentleman who is a credit to his faith.



What's wrong with his comment? How is it a discredit to his faith (or mine)? Why should Christians have to sit back and just "take it?" Why do unbelievers think that all Christians have to be weak and led to the gas chambers or pits and be wilfully killed? I'm tired of Christ and Christians being attacked day in, day out. Meek does not mean weak. It takes a strong man to be meek. Why is it that when Christians defend our faith, and stand up for truth, we're seen as intolerant? I'm not going to turn the other cheek just to get kicked in the butt by unbelievers. Let these so-called magicians voluntarily die on the cross and see if they can resurrect themselves in three days. It would be a true test of their "skills."
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:55:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
if this trickery is called dishonest today, then why is it not considered dishonest 2005 years ago?



Because it wasn't trickery when Christ performed it. And His miracles were well witnessed by many people whether you believe their testimony or not.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:08:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:19:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:23:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UPD415:

Originally Posted By Rodent:

"Maybe these two fraudsters could try being crucified to see if they can rise three days later," said Bishop Michael Reid, founder of television watchdog the Christian Congress for Traditional Values.


Another fine Christian gentleman who is a credit to his faith.



What's wrong with his comment? How is it a discredit to his faith (or mine)? Why should Christians have to sit back and just "take it?" Why do unbelievers think that all Christians have to be weak and led to the gas chambers or pits and be wilfully killed? I'm tired of Christ and Christians being attacked day in, day out.



Good to see the overly dramatic Christian persecution complex going strong. Already going from a few jokesters on a tv show to gas chambers and pits of death. I love it when people who are the overwhelming majority try to pretend they are under some sort of insidious attack when someone is just joking around with a bit of juvenile humour.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:46:57 PM EDT
Slogger78- how is it being overly dramatic? Christians are attacked daily throughout the world both physically and verbally for our faith. Many Christians are killed in parts of the world for their faith. How is it being overly dramatic? Why should I, or any other believer, be laughing at the mocking of the Lord? Why?

Funny, how if we're so in the majority, the world keeps sliding down into the pit. Hysterical, isn't it? Your response is juvenile.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:07:05 AM EDT
Do some ROPe tricks then the brittins will really go after them
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:18:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

"Maybe these two fraudsters could try being crucified to see if they can rise three days later," said Bishop Michael Reid, founder of television watchdog the Christian Congress for Traditional Values.


Another fine Christian gentleman who is a credit to his faith.



Yea... good one . See, it's called fidelity. If an individual is saying that he can recreate the same

"miracles" that Christ performed some 2000 years ago, then he should be able to recreate all of them.

I'm not sure if you knew this, but the Bible says that Christ was crucified, died, and then rose from death

three days later. So, to maintain fidelity with the statements about being able to recreate Biblical

miracles and miracles that Jesus Christ himself performed, you would also need to be crucified, die, and

then rise from the dead. So, sorry that you didn't effectively slander the Christian faith and that a

Christian preacher wasn't so quick to capitulate. - Kool-Aid (LCA ts1337)
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:57:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UPD415:
Slogger78- how is it being overly dramatic? Christians are attacked daily throughout the world both physically and verbally for our faith. Many Christians are killed in parts of the world for their faith. How is it being overly dramatic? Why should I, or any other believer, be laughing at the mocking of the Lord? Why?

Funny, how if we're so in the majority, the world keeps sliding down into the pit. Hysterical, isn't it? Your response is juvenile.



No one said you have to laugh at, like or amazingly enough even watch this show. Are you being forced to tune in to Channel 4 on British TV on December 28? Or will you just not watch it? It is exactly people like you that provide people like these "magicians" with their ammo and satisfaction as you take the bait every time.

What has people being killed in parts of the world for their faith got to do with a comedy routine? The answer of course is absolutely nothing. So far you've tied in gas chambers, death pits and general slaughter of Christians in to a thread about a comedy routine. Do you really think these issues are actually linked to a comedy routine, no matter how juvenile the comedians may be?

Criticise it all you want, but stick to the issue at hand and spare us the histrionics about gas chambers and people being killed for their faith.

You aren't being persecuted by this comedy routine. No one will die as a result. Your faith isn't under assault by it. It wont lead to gas chambers or death pits. It's a damn comedy routine. And yes, you are being overly dramatic. People weaken their own institutions by shunning criticism or humour.

I always think it's funny when people who are part of a huge majority try to play victim as if you are on the back foot. The entire western world will stand still in a few days to celebrate Saturnalia Christmas and you think a small comedy routine that will probably be watched by three or four million people requires comparison to gas chambers and general slaughter of Christians. Don't worry, about 1.7 billion people will stop on Sunday to open presents, eat, drink, fuck and be merry celebrate the birth of Christ.

By the way most of the world isn't sliding in to a pit. Living standards, quality of life, education levels and life expectancy are going up in most of the world, including the entire Western world, most of South America, Asia and yes, even most of the Middle East.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:15:47 AM EDT
Slogger- rest assured I won't be watching this garbage and I haven't "fallen" for their bait. I fully realize what they are doing. I guess we view comedy differently- mocking Christ is not funny to me. As to falling into the pit, I'm speaking of spiritual things not material. As I said earlier, I'm just tired of Christians being mocked, etc, for faith and for people like these so-called "magicians" to duplicate true miracles so they can try and claim the Bible is false (and regardless whether or not you see it or believe it, that is their goal). Again, the ultimate challenge to these people is: voluntarily be crucified, die and resurrect in three days. Let's see them do this. Is that too much to ask?

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:17:51 AM EDT
Would you be offended by a TV show that poked a little fun at the Egyptian Pharoahs? The Japanese emperor? The French Sun King? The Mayan rulers? They were all gods, too. Lighten up a little.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:38:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Would you be offended by a TV show that poked a little fun at the Egyptian Pharoahs? The Japanese emperor? The French Sun King? The Mayan rulers? They were all gods, too. Lighten up a little.



Sorry Rodent, but must disagree. The ones you list above were just men not gods. Anyway, I must sign off for now until tonight 11pm cdt.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:44:10 AM EDT
man, i can't remember what show i saw it on, but there was a brit guest who said brits have been systematically eliminating religion from their lives. he said that in a lot of art museums, they have to have educational placards posted to explain the context of a lot of religious paintings because young folks have no frigging idea what's being depicted...
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:45:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UPD415:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Would you be offended by a TV show that poked a little fun at the Egyptian Pharoahs? The Japanese emperor? The French Sun King? The Mayan rulers? They were all gods, too. Lighten up a little.



Sorry Rodent, but must disagree. The ones you list above were just men not gods. Anyway, I must sign off for now until tonight 11pm cdt.



Some feel the same way about JC
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:05:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 4:05:42 AM EDT by BenDover]
I could care less what these guys do. It's not offensive to me. And they have to answer for their own actions, as do I.

I am not very interested in much of anything that Great Britain has to offer on a cultural level. Unless, of course, you are in favor of things like liberal socialism, camera surveillance, and disarmament.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:25:24 AM EDT
Surely by demonstrating they can do it as an illusion, you can see taht the eral thing is that much more miraculous?

And to be fair, most artwork needs small cards so that today's litter can understand what's going on, not just religious works. Preferrably written in TXT SPK...

/PHil
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:36:58 AM EDT
I'm one of those sorts who needs evidence before accepting things that contradict reason, logic and experience. I'd love to see someone raise the dead, cure the blind, feed the multitude and walk on water (I already know how to make a virgin pregnant ). Sign me up as a guest on that show.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:40:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UPD415:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
if this trickery is called dishonest today, then why is it not considered dishonest 2005 years ago?



Because it wasn't trickery when Christ performed it. And His miracles were well witnessed by many people whether you believe their testimony or not.



and you know this how? just because you read it in a book? and these people who witnessed it bought the trickery hook, line, and sinker? geez...
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:48:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

Originally Posted By UPD415:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
if this trickery is called dishonest today, then why is it not considered dishonest 2005 years ago?



Because it wasn't trickery when Christ performed it. And His miracles were well witnessed by many people whether you believe their testimony or not.



and you know this how? just because you read it in a book? and these people who witnessed it bought the trickery hook, line, and sinker? geez...



+1
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:57:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UPD415:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Would you be offended by a TV show that poked a little fun at the Egyptian Pharoahs? The Japanese emperor? The French Sun King? The Mayan rulers? They were all gods, too. Lighten up a little.



Sorry Rodent, but must disagree. The ones you list above were just men not gods. Anyway, I must sign off for now until tonight 11pm cdt.



and to non-Christians, Jesus was just a man.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:31:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven: "Maybe these two fraudsters could try being crucified to see if they can rise three days later," said Bishop Michael Reid, founder of television watchdog the Christian Congress for Traditional Values.
Just think about the ratings! Man, the Pay-Per-View licenses!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:17:24 AM EDT
What about this guy? I think he's got the crucifixion thing going pretty well:




Besides, he wears a cross the size of New Jersey, which means he's a Christian, right? Here he is with his accountant, who happens to be the debbul:




Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:55:32 AM EDT
Getting a woman pregnant without having sex, isn't very hard. Tom Cruise did it just a couple of months ago.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:58:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DScott:
What about this guy? I think he's got the crucifixion thing going pretty well:

www.kahsoon.com/images/Criss-Angel-Levitation.gif


Besides, he wears a cross the size of New Jersey, which means he's a Christian, right? Here he is with his accountant, who happens to be the debbul:


www.stevensmagic.com/personallyspeaking/mar05/CrissAngel&MarkStevens.jpg




Christians don't practice "magic".

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:59:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Christians don't practice "magic".

Well, technically, neither do magicians. It's an illusion, not the work of the devil.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:07:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
Well, technically, neither do magicians. It's an illusion, not the work of the devil.



It is still something Christians are not supposed to have anything to do with. Divining and sorcery are no-no's. That's why Christians aren't supposed to be calling psychic friends, etc.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:09:20 AM EDT
This reminds me of the story of Moses in Egyptian captivity, when he faced the Pharoah's magicians in the court. Certainly there were other powers/illusions, etc... on par with that which God imparted to Moses.... to a point. Then God showed greater power.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:14:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!

Here is my message to everyone (Christians, Jews, women, blacks, midgets, fat people, handicapped, etc): STOP SEARCHING FOR THINGS TO BE OFFENDED ABOUT!



Tell people that when there are guys who show up in your living room and begin trying to demonstrate that you are an idiot to your family....




+1

Shok
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:23:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 9:24:34 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Here is my message to everyone (Christians, Jews, women, blacks, midgets, fat people, handicapped, etc): STOP SEARCHING FOR THINGS TO BE OFFENDED ABOUT!



Would you include the atheists, agnostics, SOCAT-activists, etc. in that list? You didn't mention them specifically, but you did say "everyone"...



Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:26:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
This reminds me of the story of Moses in Egyptian captivity, when he faced the Pharoah's magicians in the court. Certainly there were other powers/illusions, etc... on par with that which God imparted to Moses.... to a point. Then God showed greater power.



I didn't think about that.

Well, if these two magicians end up being eaten by a snake, we will know what happened.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 11:02:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 11:45:54 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
Well, technically, neither do magicians. It's an illusion, not the work of the devil.



It is still something Christians are not supposed to have anything to do with. Divining and sorcery are no-no's. That's why Christians aren't supposed to be calling psychic friends, etc.



So Christian's can't learn sleight of hand? Or they can't use sleight of hand to fool others into thinking they have magical powers?

I'm interested because I was taught the 2nd.

Learning illusions and such isn't wrong, using them to fool people into believing you have powers (whether from God or the Devil) is what is wrong.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 11:13:52 AM EDT
No matter how you cut it, all that stuff like Psychics and magicians and what not are phoney. Cause why is it they can never use their skills when it really comes down to it. Like they can't locate Osama or pick the lotto numbers, or prevent disasters and so on and so on.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 11:14:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 11:14:57 AM EDT by Stealth]
Magicians using 'trickery' and 'illusion' to entertain? How dishonest of them! That's not even real magic.

They're all a bunch of liars.

And you know that guy in the red suit ringing the bell in front of the store? He isn't really Santa.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:08:10 PM EDT
SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! +1
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:18:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
Well, technically, neither do magicians. It's an illusion, not the work of the devil.



It is still something Christians are not supposed to have anything to do with. Divining and sorcery are no-no's. That's why Christians aren't supposed to be calling psychic friends, etc.



So Christian's can't learn sleight of hand? Or they can't use sleight of hand to fool others into thinking they have magical powers?

I'm interested because I was taught the 2nd.

Learning illusions and such isn't wrong, using them to fool people into believing you have powers (whether from God or the Devil) is what is wrong.




Pretty much.

Using sleight of hand to mock Christ's miracles is also a no-no.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:19:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
No matter how you cut it, all that stuff like Psychics and magicians and what not are phoney. Cause why is it they can never use their skills when it really comes down to it. Like they can't locate Osama or pick the lotto numbers, or prevent disasters and so on and so on.



Pretty much.

Apparently no psychics were at work on September 10th, 2001.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:25:20 PM EDT
"Great peace have they that love Thy law and nothing shall offend them." Psalm 119:165
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:30:41 PM EDT

Maybe these two fraudsters could try being crucified to see if they can rise three days later,"




ROFL

GR
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