If this is what the future looks like, I'm not sure I want to be there.  Orwell was a prophet.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece

Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded. A new national surveillance system will hold the records for at least two years.

Using a network of cameras that can automatically read every passing number plate, the plan is to build a huge database of vehicle movements so that the police and security services can analyse any journey a driver has made over several years.

The network will incorporate thousands of existing CCTV cameras which are being converted to read number plates automatically night and day to provide 24/7 coverage of all motorways and main roads, as well as towns, cities, ports and petrol-station forecourts.

By next March a central database installed alongside the Police National Computer in Hendon, north London, will store the details of 35 million number-plate "reads" per day. These will include time, date and precise location, with camera sites monitored by global positioning satellites.

Already there are plans to extend the database by increasing the storage period to five years and by linking thousands of additional cameras so that details of up to 100 million number plates can be fed each day into the central databank.

Senior police officers have described the surveillance network as possibly the biggest advance in the technology of crime detection and prevention since the introduction of DNA fingerprinting.

But others concerned about civil liberties will be worried that the movements of millions of law-abiding people will soon be routinely recorded and kept on a central computer database for years.

The new national data centre of vehicle movements will form the basis of a sophisticated surveillance tool that lies at the heart of an operation designed to drive criminals off the road.

In the process, the data centre will provide unrivalled opportunities to gather intelligence data on the movements and associations of organised gangs and terrorist suspects whenever they use cars, vans or motorcycles.

The scheme is being orchestrated by the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) and has the full backing of ministers who have sanctioned the spending of £24m this year on equipment.

More than 50 local authorities have signed agreements to allow the police to convert thousands of existing traffic cameras so they can read number plates automatically. The data will then be transmitted to Hendon via a secure police communications network

Chief constables are also on the verge of brokering agreements with the Highways Agency, supermarkets and petrol station owners to incorporate their own CCTV cameras into the network. In addition to cross-checking each number plate against stolen and suspect vehicles held on the Police National Computer, the national data centre will also check whether each vehicle is lawfully licensed, insured and has a valid MoT test certificate.

"Every time you make a car journey already, you'll be on CCTV somewhere. The difference is that, in future, the car's index plates will be read as well," said Frank Whiteley, Chief Constable of Hertfordshire and chairman of the Acpo steering committee on automatic number plate recognition (ANPR).

"What the data centre should be able to tell you is where a vehicle was in the past and where it is now, whether it was or wasn't at a particular location, and the routes taken to and from those crime scenes. Particularly important are associated vehicles," Mr Whiteley said.

The term "associated vehicles" means analysing convoys of cars, vans or trucks to see who is driving alongside a vehicle that is already known to be of interest to the police. Criminals, for instance, will drive somewhere in a lawful vehicle, steal a car and then drive back in convoy to commit further crimes "You're not necessarily interested in the stolen vehicle. You're interested in what's moving with the stolen vehicle," Mr Whiteley explained.

According to a strategy document drawn up by Acpo, the national data centre in Hendon will be at the heart of a surveillance operation that should deny criminals the use of the roads.

"The intention is to create a comprehensive ANPR camera and reader infrastructure across the country to stop displacement of crime from area to area and to allow a comprehensive picture of vehicle movements to be captured," the Acpo strategy says.

"This development forms the basis of a 24/7 vehicle movement database that will revolutionise arrest, intelligence and crime investigation opportunities on a national basis," it says.

Mr Whiteley said MI5 will also use the database. "Clearly there are values for this in counter-terrorism," he said.

"The security services will use it for purposes that I frankly don't have access to. It's part of public protection. If the security services did not have access to this, we'd be negligent."

So what was the cold war for?  What was WW2 for?

Great.

I especially liked this bit..

"Every time you make a car journey already, you'll be on CCTV somewhere. The difference is that, in future, the car's index plates will be read as well," said Frank Whiteley, Chief Constable of Hertfordshire and chairman of the Acpo steering committee on automatic number plate recognition (ANPR). "What the data centre should be able to tell you is where a vehicle was in the past and where it is now, whether it was or wasn't at a particular location, and the routes taken to and from those crime scenes. Particularly important are associated vehicles," Mr Whiteley said.

and this little gem of freedom

The term "associated vehicles" means analysing convoys of cars, vans or trucks to see who is driving alongside a vehicle that is already known to be of interest to the police. Criminals, for instance, will drive somewhere in a lawful vehicle, steal a car and then drive back in convoy to commit further crimes "You're not necessarily interested in the stolen vehicle. You're interested in what's moving with the stolen vehicle," Mr Whiteley explained.

Because now even if you PASS a criminal, you become a suspect..

But what am I saying? If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

Something makes me think that license plate counterfieting will boom...

I believe there are secret readers for NTTA tolltags throughout the city (DFW) testing for future plans where they add an RFID to every license plate.  The readers can be easily hidden.  Just a theory, but not far off.  Also can be done easily with plate reading cameras, of course....

Quoted: So what was the cold war for?  What was WW2 for?

Nothing it seems.

Sadly, her Majesties loyal bootlickers subjects will accept it with very little protest.

That kind of makes me want to go buy a Model T....

DUPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

From over a MONTH ago!

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=408996

Quoted: Quoted: Sadly, her Majesties loyal bootlickers subjects will accept it with very little protest. Unlike you 'free men' who are also accepting it? ANdy

No we'll never accept tracking our vehicle movements. But we will accept NSA phone taps.

Quoted: Quoted: Sadly, her Majesties loyal bootlickers subjects will accept it with very little protest. Unlike you 'free men' who are also accepting it? www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/news/x_051201_anpr-hits-usa_motorola-pips.htm www.nditech.net/us/homelandsecurity/alpr/ ANdy

There is a huge difference between ALPR systems mounted on patrol cars, which only do what police already do on the radio but much more quickly and a system that tracks every vehicle, every time, every where, and records the data for 2 years.

Sorry Andy, just showing two commercial adverts means nothing.  And I hate to tell you this, our system of due process is FAR stronger than yours, despite Bush's insistence on spying on everyone.  I suspect his little fishing trip will be cut short when courts start setting prisoners free because of the unconstitutional manner in which the information leading to arrest was obtained.

Quoted: Quoted: Sadly, her Majesties loyal bootlickers subjects will accept it with very little protest. Unlike you 'free men' who are also accepting it? www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/news/x_051201_anpr-hits-usa_motorola-pips.htm www.nditech.net/us/homelandsecurity/alpr/ ANdy

I don't have much of a problem with the technology if used to simply scan plate numbers for stolen or vehicles used in an actual crime or outstanding warrents.

Maintaining a 5 year database of all vehicles on the road at a national level is an entirely different thing.

I don't even want to think about the expense of such a project or the potential for abuse.

Quoted: [ you will have a nationwide system introduced, to monitor 'terrorists' of course.

No way. Too many road to monitor. Too many vehicles on the road. The infrastructure costs would be tremendous, and then there is the legal costs the .gov would have to pay fighting off organizations like the ACLU.

.Govs love ANPR/ALPR systems, it's cheap survielance, just install the software on any CCTV/Camera hub and your good to go.

We have very few CCTV/Camera hubs here that are .gov owned compared to the UK.

No way it will happen in 5, 10 or even 15 years.

It's amazing, no one cared about this until Bush said the NSA was doing it?  This started immediately after the Oklahoma City bombing by that wackjob McVey!!  Big surprise!!  The government doesn't trust it's citizens!!  Tap my phone, I don't give a shit attitude has to stop or soon we'll all be "bugged" everywhere we go!  As far as "watching" cars in Britian-hasn't that also been going on since the early '80-ish time?  Started as I recall to watch tunnels and high traffic zones for crashes and such...To help the cities motorist, right?

I have nothing to weary about, because I'm basically a law abidding citizen, yes I have a beer and then go outside to work in the yard.  I certainly don't build bombs and plot against the government!  I do my bidding against government by VOTING!
Don't for one second think someone's not watching you at any given time in the USA either!  What do you think those cameras are doing on the stoplights in town?  At the ballgame?  At the toll booths on interstate systems?  Hmmmmm.....I think we've been watched for a long time?!?!?!?

Scott B

This type of system has been approved by the EPA in the USA, but currently has no implementation date.  If you check into OBDIV, you will see the system.  On Board Diagnostics-System Four.  The system calls for vehicle transponders, coupled w/roadside monitors.  Wouldn't take much to put drivers license readers in the car either.

thought police are next!

Here in Houston, they have little bar-code reader cameras on overpasses entering and exiting the metro area, which reads the bar-code off your inspection and registration sticker.

Drive too many times into town on a regular basis and you'll get a notice in the mail that the next time you have your auto inspected it will have to be to the higher Houston standards, even though you live counties away......., as they have a record of how often you come into Houston proper.

(one of the benefits of two wheeled transportation, which I ride daily, is thankfully the vast majority of all these new devices are prioritized for vehicular traffic not motorcycles)

Mike

Sure, this idea has been floating around for a while now.  At least fifteen years ago, a company I worked for was talking about how their software could be used to tax vehicles on a per-mile and indeed per-road basis, so that someone driving during peak hours in the city core could be taxed for more than someone doing it off-hours, or driving in the countryside, or whatever.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sadly, her Majesties loyal bootlickers subjects will accept it with very little protest. Unlike you 'free men' who are also accepting it? www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/news/x_051201_anpr-hits-usa_motorola-pips.htm www.nditech.net/us/homelandsecurity/alpr/ ANdy There is a huge difference between ALPR systems mounted on patrol cars, which only do what police already do on the radio but much more quickly and a system that tracks every vehicle, every time, every where, and records the data for 2 years. Sorry Andy, just showing two commercial adverts means nothing.  And I hate to tell you this, our system of due process is FAR stronger than yours, despite Bush's insistence on spying on everyone.  I suspect his little fishing trip will be cut short when courts start setting prisoners free because of the unconstitutional manner in which the information leading to arrest was obtained. 5 years tops and you will have a nationwide system introduced, to monitor 'terrorists' of course. .Govs love ANPR/ALPR systems, it's cheap survielance, just install the software on any CCTV/Camera hub and your good to go. And actually, one of the 'commercial adverts' noted a PD trial. You guys should note that the money and research in the cutting edge ANPR/ALPR systems is in the USA, so I suspect they see a big domestic market. Don't be so sure abot that due process thing, wire taps are illegal over here! ANdy

As dport implied, you don't know a lot about how things work in the US.

Quoted: Here in Houston, they have little bar-code reader cameras on overpasses entering and exiting the metro area, which reads the bar-code off your inspection and registration sticker. Drive too many times into town on a regular basis and you'll get a notice in the mail that the next time you have your auto inspected it will have to be to the higher Houston standards, even though you live counties away......., as they have a record of how often you come into Houston proper. (one of the benefits of two wheeled transportation, which I ride daily, is thankfully the vast majority of all these new devices are prioritized for vehicular traffic not motorcycles) Mike

A little bit of tape or other "contamination" on the bar code fixes that problem right up.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ANdy As dport implied, you don't know a lot about how things work in the US. <cough> Patriot Act <cough> Get back to me in 10 years time, you'll have a GPS tagged plate and a monthly direct deduction from your bank account to the .Gov.... ANdy

Several provisions of the Patriot Act are dying as we speak.

It is FAR more difficult for legislation to be enacted in the US than in the UK due to the differences of check and balances between a pairlamentary vs  republican form of government,  Then, the law has to survive a Constitutional challenge if that issue is raised by anyone.

We'll see in ten years.  We're still waiting for a lot of crap that was predicted to be reality 20 years ago.

I want to see the Ghost Rider visit them and parade around the country doing a wheel stand at 180+kph.

Let the plates show the words "bugger off" and track his movements.

Quoted: The term "associated vehicles" means analysing convoys of cars, vans or trucks to see who is driving alongside a vehicle that is already known to be of interest to the police. Criminals, for instance, will drive somewhere in a lawful vehicle, steal a car and then drive back in convoy to commit further crimes "You're not necessarily interested in the stolen vehicle. You're interested in what's moving with the stolen vehicle," Mr Whiteley explained. Because now even if you PASS a criminal, you become a suspect.. But what am I saying? If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

This was a crime in East Germany. If you drove by a certain building or area and had no usual reason or explanation for being there. You'd get a stamp marked "Vorbeifahrt" in your file in the Stasi (secret police) offices,  "Vorbeifahrt" = drive by. If something came up, and you couldn't explain it away, this "Vorbeifahrt" could be used against you in court.

George Orwell, we hardly knew ye. Nor you, us.

Long Live the Queen!

Notice they are not necessarily interested in the stolen vehicle.  So, it seems that the police aren't into recovering the vehicle stolen from you - tough for you.  They only have their own agenda from someone else.  They are only begging the question, "Who needs them?"

Quoted: If this is what the future looks like, I'm not sure I want to be there.  Orwell was a prophet. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece

My boss says this web site must be fake, due to all of the misspelled words in the story.

It is a well known, reputable news site.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sadly, her Majesties loyal bootlickers subjects will accept it with very little protest. Unlike you 'free men' who are also accepting it? www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/news/x_051201_anpr-hits-usa_motorola-pips.htm www.nditech.net/us/homelandsecurity/alpr/ ANdy There is a huge difference between ALPR systems mounted on patrol cars, which only do what police already do on the radio but much more quickly and a system that tracks every vehicle, every time, every where, and records the data for 2 years. Sorry Andy, just showing two commercial adverts means nothing.  And I hate to tell you this, our system of due process is FAR stronger than yours, despite Bush's insistence on spying on everyone.  I suspect his little fishing trip will be cut short when courts start setting prisoners free because of the unconstitutional manner in which the information leading to arrest was obtained. 5 years tops and you will have a nationwide system introduced, to monitor 'terrorists' of course. .Govs love ANPR/ALPR systems, it's cheap survielance, just install the software on any CCTV/Camera hub and your good to go. And actually, one of the 'commercial adverts' noted a PD trial. You guys should note that the money and research in the cutting edge ANPR/ALPR systems is in the USA, so I suspect they see a big domestic market. Don't be so sure abot that due process thing, wire taps are illegal over here! ANdy

Andy
ANPR has been used for many years already monitoring Ferry's from UK to Ireland. (Terrorist related)

And wiretaps are only illegal when found You can buy them legaly in the UK

Taffy


I forgot the  OJNTSA

Quoted: Something makes me think that license plate counterfieting will boom...

A handful of mud will do the trick

Taffy

GATSO 2
Taffy    0

I'm loosing already

They started installing redlight camera's here back in July.  I expect people will purposely run them down and shoot them out as they become more plentiful.

Our PD had a mobile camera for awhile.  They could raise it to 50 something feet so it could peer over the railing of an overpass..   People started shooting it and in some case knocking the whole thing over as well as stealing the cameras.


As for the redlight camera's.  They are in protected boxes.   But everything has a weak spot.  Some textured clear spray paint and a board kid will take care of those.

All of America will happily embrace it as it will need to be done to stop terrorism.

A former assistant FBI Director was just on Fox News discussing this system and how it will be coming to America in a couple years.  He stated it will be used to stop terrorism and parroted some of the same things that "Americans" on Arfcom 'feel":

If you aren't a criminal you have nothing to worry about.

It's not exactly like Orwell's 1984 in that it can be easily abused but the American Government would never do that.

He also went on to say how it needs to be slowly implemented so people don't worry about it.

I was surprised by how many on here like red light cameras in previous threads...who's going to "step up" and say they like this?

Quoted: Quoted: A former assistant FBI Director was just on Fox News discussing this system and how it will be coming to America in a couple years.  He stated it will be used to stop terrorism and parroted some of the same things that "Americans" on Arfcom 'feel": If you aren't a criminal you have nothing to worry about. It's not exactly like Orwell's 1984 in that it can be easily abused but the American Government would never do that. He also went on to say how it needs to be slowly implemented so people don't worry about it. Looks dport and SWO_daddy just got shot down in a 'friendly fire' by their own (FBI) side... ANdy

An ex-assistant FBI director does not policy make. Besides he fails to mention the thousands of miles of American highways without surveillance. His an opinion is just that, an opinion.

Quoted: I was surprised by how many on here like red light cameras in previous threads...who's going to "step up" and say they like this?

IIRC they were declared "unconstitutional" in VA. Va Bch had some and had to get rid of them after the court ruling.

Quoted: Quoted: A former assistant FBI Director was just on Fox News discussing this system and how it will be coming to America in a couple years.  He stated it will be used to stop terrorism and parroted some of the same things that "Americans" on Arfcom 'feel": If you aren't a criminal you have nothing to worry about. It's not exactly like Orwell's 1984 in that it can be easily abused but the American Government would never do that. He also went on to say how it needs to be slowly implemented so people don't worry about it. Looks dport and SWO_daddy just got shot down in a 'friendly fire' by their own (FBI) side... ANdy

Why don't you get this through your thick-ass British skull?

We have MANY ways of keeping this technology off ourselves, or at least keeping the popo on a FAR tighter leash than you can even dream about.

Just take a look at the difference in gun law enforcement between your country and mine.  Your fucking cops can make up just about any reason they want to deny or revoke SGCs or FACs, and don't you dare deny it.

Our police, in about 45 of the 50 states, have ZERO fucking say in who can or cannot own a gun and under what conditions.

And so it will be with all this monitoring technology.

Misery does love company, doesn't it Andy?

Stick to what you know, bud.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A former assistant FBI Director was just on Fox News discussing this system and how it will be coming to America in a couple years.  He stated it will be used to stop terrorism and parroted some of the same things that "Americans" on Arfcom 'feel": If you aren't a criminal you have nothing to worry about. It's not exactly like Orwell's 1984 in that it can be easily abused but the American Government would never do that. He also went on to say how it needs to be slowly implemented so people don't worry about it. Looks dport and SWO_daddy just got shot down in a 'friendly fire' by their own (FBI) side... ANdy An ex-assistant FBI director does not policy make. Besides he fails to mention the thousands of miles of American highways without surveillance. His an opinion is just that, an opinion. And that 'opinion' could very well reflect 'corporate' thinking... ANdy

Which can and has been shut down at the stroke of a Judge's pen.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A former assistant FBI Director was just on Fox News discussing this system and how it will be coming to America in a couple years.  He stated it will be used to stop terrorism and parroted some of the same things that "Americans" on Arfcom 'feel": If you aren't a criminal you have nothing to worry about. It's not exactly like Orwell's 1984 in that it can be easily abused but the American Government would never do that. He also went on to say how it needs to be slowly implemented so people don't worry about it. Looks dport and SWO_daddy just got shot down in a 'friendly fire' by their own (FBI) side... ANdy An ex-assistant FBI director does not policy make. Besides he fails to mention the thousands of miles of American highways without surveillance. His an opinion is just that, an opinion. And that 'opinion' could very well reflect 'corporate' thinking... ANdy

Except in the US you not only have Federal law to deal with, but the various laws of the 50 states. In VA, for instance, stop light cameras were determined to be unConstitutional. So much for corporate thinking.

Quoted: And that 'opinion' could very well reflect 'corporate' thinking... ANdy

He seemed well versed in it and was discussing how it would be implemented in the US.  

He is retired, but just that he was well versed in the technology and was discussing how the fed was testing the equipment was very interesting.

Makes me believe it's pretty much a done deal for the US in a few years.

Quoted: Quoted: And that 'opinion' could very well reflect 'corporate' thinking... ANdy He seemed well versed in it and was discussing how it would be implemented in the US.   He is retired, but just that he was well versed in the technology and was discussing how the fed was testing the equipment was very interesting. Makes me believe it's pretty much a done deal for the US in a few years.

Since when does the FBI decide what is legal or constitutional?

There's a lot of technology out there that would give cops and the FBI a wet dream.  But ultimately they are not the ones who decide if they can use it or not.

They may very well try, only to find their new towy declared illegal by legislation or unconstitutional by judgement.

Quoted: Quoted: I was surprised by how many on here like red light cameras in previous threads...who's going to "step up" and say they like this? IIRC they were declared "unconstitutional" in VA. Va Bch had some and had to get rid of them after the court ruling.

We still have them in Ohio, however there is growing resentment towards them. Near me, we have red light and speed cameras at several interesections, as well as a few roaming vans with speed cameras...