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Posted: 4/12/2006 4:54:38 AM EDT

Jane's Defence Weekly
April 12, 2006

USMC Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

By Joshua Kucera, JDW Staff Reporter, Washington, DC

The US Marine Corps is looking at the possibility of reviving the retired OV-10 Bronco observation aircraft for use in Iraq, according to a top service official.

The aircraft, which was retired from US service in 1994, would be used to augment surveillance of roads in Iraq.

Having additional aircraft there could increase the chances of US forces detecting the emplacement of roadside bombs or improvised explosive devices (IEDs), some service officials believe.

"If this is a capability we think that will take out the IED or help us catch the IED maker ... you bet [we are interested]," a senior marine commander told Jane's.

Service officials, with the help of an association of retired OV-10 pilots, have identified aircraft and pilots that could be used in Iraq, he said.

The Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory has been tasked to examine the cost of such a plan and the concept of operations it might use, the commander added.

However, not all marine officials are enamoured with the idea.

Lieutenant General John Castellaw, the service's deputy commandant for aviation, told Jane's he thought the experience of the Gulf War showed that the aircraft was too vulnerable.

Marsh Aviation, which manages the inventory of the government-owned OV-10s and does upgrade work for international OV-10 customers, could remanufacture 10 or 12 of the aircraft suitable for military use by piecing together parts of various aircraft, said Floyd Stilwell, Marsh Aviation's chief executive officer.

The company could start delivering aircraft within 10 months at a normal production rate and faster if the government paid for it, Stilwell said.

The OV-10 proposal is one of many schemes - often secretive - to revive retired aircraft or convert civilian aircraft for use in operations in Iraq and elsewhere.

The US Army has converted at least three Shorts 360-300 aircraft under the name Constant Hawk to do surveillance in Iraq and the sea lanes of the Middle East. Two of the aircraft collided with each other in Wisconsin in February shortly before they were to be sent to Iraq.

Mohawk Technologies of Florida has operated a fleet of six OV-1 Mohawk reconnaissance aircraft under a US Department of Defense (DoD) contract for about 12 months, said Paul Pefley, the company's president. Pefley declined to say where the aircraft were being operated or for which branch of the DoD. The OV-1 was retired from US Army use in 1996.

Most of the non-traditional aircraft plans, however, have gone nowhere and have been openly advocated only by a collection of veterans associations and a handful of members of Congress.

There is a growing constituency, however, of people who believe that soldiers and marines in Iraq need better real-time intelligence and look back to the Vietnam-era Forward Air Controllers (FACs) as a model of how counterinsurgency can be fought from the air.

Those FACs were more tightly integrated with small units than the surveillance aircraft used today, and more effective, the Congressional staff member said.

"The air force is looking at all this, but very quietly," he said. "There's really a gap in combat information at a platoon commander, convoy leader level that is real and as real-time as you can hope to have it. We've got dozens of systems operating over there but there's a big logjam in the [intelligence] pipeline, and everyone knows it."



Would probably be a good V-22 escort too.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 4:57:55 AM EDT
Buy more predators.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 4:59:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 10:01:31 AM EDT by DvlDog]
oh sweet jeebus could possibly be true???? the bronco kicked ass.

i wonder how this would affect the warrant officers that got screwed in the F-18 transition....

predators are not exactly the answer. the best use of the predator is as a weapons platform but for dynamic, fluid situation you need to be able to get on the hook and talk to the guy in the plane. his judegement and perception can aid you. its not the same if you get on the radio and talk to a guy in a trailer 20miles away.

this is just another example of The Corps thinking outside the box to find a creative solution. i hope they make this work. the FAC concept would work very well in iraq.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:01:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:07:55 AM EDT
They're pretty cool planes. got to see them do their stuff way back when!







Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:09:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:32:08 AM EDT
That thing looks like it would be an absolute blast to fly.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:35:08 AM EDT
In '90, seen guys fall out the back over LZ Falcon in Lejeune...
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:08:40 AM EDT
"Let's get the basic relationship down... I'm the lifeguard, you're the drowning man. If you relax, I can bring you to shore. If you fight me, then I'll have to slap you around."
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:15:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:
"Let's get the basic relationship down... I'm the lifeguard, you're the drowning man. If you relax, I can bring you to shore. If you fight me, then I'll have to slap you around."



Nice quote, wrong plane
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:38:59 AM EDT
Sounds like a good idea, we'll see if it works out. I CAN tell you it was a VERY cool airframe to jump from. In the days back when I was in the Corps it was considered the ULTIMATE in thrill rides and they were a BLAST. Upon your exit you'd look down while you were in your body position you would see BLUE. Your feet would be pointing to the sky and the chute would open behind you (like a top fuel dragster) slowing you down, and you'd fall into place under your canopy. The aircraft would come swooping in at 200 ft. AGL and then go into a 70 degree climb until it started to stall, and by that time you were (hopefully) out of the aircraft. Then they'd just level off as you floated to the ground. SWEEET!
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:41:32 AM EDT
I always loved the way the Bronco looked, bring it back!
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:56:54 AM EDT
Some info on those ATF Broncos:

www.ov-10bronco.net/us-state-batf.cfm


A nice VAL-4 website (be sure and check out the links while you're there):

www.blackpony.org/


Check out Kit Lavell's book, Flying Black Ponies.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:10:34 AM EDT
Whats old is new again. I think they would be PERFECT for Iraq
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:14:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
In '90, seen guys fall out the back over LZ Falcon in Lejeune...



???

Sure you're not thinking of a Boxcar ?
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:17:25 AM EDT
They are becomming unsupportable. The supply of repair parts are pretty much gone/used up, the companies that made the repair parts are either out of business or not willing to make small runs of parts.

Luke(working on a program that uses the OV-10)
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:18:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
In '90, seen guys fall out the back over LZ Falcon in Lejeune...



???

Sure you're not thinking of a Boxcar ?



Nope, OV10, look at Craftsman62's post.

There is a door at the rear of the airframe, the drivers would pitch the nose up, the 1st guy out, IIRC, would open the doors then release the only belt holding them all in.

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:30:47 AM EDT
.gov has been useing them all along for civilian servailance and drug interdiction...may gov. agancies have them in service.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:34:26 AM EDT
Do I rememebr reading that those Broncos got were armed when the BATF recieved them?


This might work well there too.



Cessna O-2 Skymaster
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:39:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 7:47:10 AM EDT by az_larry]
Wow, we have 4 of these in our back 40 that ol Floyd is taking apart right now.

edited to add pics


Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:47:13 AM EDT
What they really need are Spads.





Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:56:21 AM EDT
I always thought the rough-field specs for the OV-10 were pretty hardcore. It's able to land or take off from a field with an 18" sine-pattern wave to it. That'd give me the pukes.

Kharn
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:01:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By az_larry:
Wow, we have 4 of these in our back 40 that ol Floyd is taking apart right now.

edited to add pics
photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=17619&iGalleryUnq=158&iImageUnq=46300

photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=17619&iGalleryUnq=158&iImageUnq=46301



I'll give you a shipping address that you can send one of them to.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:05:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 8:06:47 AM EDT by Sub-MOA]
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=453302


Can you imagine an OV-10 loaded up with the new hydras and a designation pod?
Two pods of those and a couple CBU “cluster bombs” and you would have an aircraft that would grease spot just about every target in Iraq.


A-10s and Sandys could do the job pretty well too.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:17:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:19:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By az_larry:
Wow, we have 4 of these in our back 40 that ol Floyd is taking apart right now.

edited to add pics
photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=17619&iGalleryUnq=158&iImageUnq=46300

photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=17619&iGalleryUnq=158&iImageUnq=46301



Might want to put the brakes on Floyd.

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:41:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
In '90, seen guys fall out the back over LZ Falcon in Lejeune...



???

Sure you're not thinking of a Boxcar ?



Nope, OV10, look at Craftsman62's post.

There is a door at the rear of the airframe, the drivers would pitch the nose up, the 1st guy out, IIRC, would open the doors then release the only belt holding them all in.






Negative Ghost Rider... no rear door on an OV10. Two seater. That be it.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:45:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:

Negative Ghost Rider... no rear door on an OV10. Two seater. That be it.



I saw an article some years back that showed various configurations of the airplane.

There was a picture of one that had a door in the back of the fuselage and could drop a couple paratroopers.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:46:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 8:51:36 AM EDT by FITTER]

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
In '90, seen guys fall out the back over LZ Falcon in Lejeune...



???

Sure you're not thinking of a Boxcar ?



Nope, OV10, look at Craftsman62's post.

There is a door at the rear of the airframe, the drivers would pitch the nose up, the 1st guy out, IIRC, would open the doors then release the only belt holding them all in.




The OV-10 had a tailcone that could be removed, leaving the entire rear open for drops like this... similar to the C-119 with the clamshell doors removed.





(edited to add pics)
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:48:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:49:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kpel308:
The doors are removed prior to takeoff. These are 1st ANGLICO Marines, back in 74 at Pendleton:

anglicoassociation.org/images/19741stAnglicoOV10BroncoJumpCampPendletonea.jpg
anglicoassociation.org/photogallery/photo1970s/19741stAnglicoOV10BroncoJumpCampPendletonf.jpg



Well that's cozy.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:49:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FITTER:

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
In '90, seen guys fall out the back over LZ Falcon in Lejeune...



???

Sure you're not thinking of a Boxcar ?



Nope, OV10, look at Craftsman62's post.

There is a door at the rear of the airframe, the drivers would pitch the nose up, the 1st guy out, IIRC, would open the doors then release the only belt holding them all in.




The OV-10 had a tailcone that could be removed, leaving the entire rear open for drops like this... similar to the C-119 with the clamshell doors removed.



Amazing.

Here's what I found on good old FAS.ORG:

The OV-10 Bronco was a multi-purpose, light attack aircraft acquired by the Marine Corp for observation squadrons to conduct visual reconnaissance missions. The OV-10A is a twin-turboprop short takeoff and landing aircraft conceived by the Marine Corps and developed under an Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps tri-service program. The first production OV-10A was ordered in 1966 and its initial flight took place in August 1967. The OV-10 can be used for short take-offs and landings on aircraft carriers without the use of catapults. With the second seat removed, it can carry 3,200 pounds of cargo, five paratroopers or two litter patients and an attendant. Adding to its versatility is a rear fuselage compartment with a capacity of 3,200 pounds of cargo, five combat-equipped troops, or two litter patients and a medical attendant.

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:50:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 8:51:21 AM EDT by Hydguy]
Buy stock in rubber bands.. The wind-up bird is making a comeback!!!!

I wonder if they will use the Cherry Point NADEP to do any of the work....It was the last (maybe only) OV-10 Depot when I was first in the Corps...
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:52:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kpel308:
The doors are removed prior to takeoff. These are 1st ANGLICO Marines, back in 74 at Pendleton:

anglicoassociation.org/images/19741stAnglicoOV10BroncoJumpCampPendletonea.jpg
anglicoassociation.org/photogallery/photo1970s/19741stAnglicoOV10BroncoJumpCampPendletonf.jpg



Funny..When I was with II SRIG, I knew the ANGLICO guys jumped out of these at Falcon...I searched ANGLICO OV10, you were stealing my bandwidth on the same site.

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:57:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
[
Here's what I found on good old FAS.ORG:

The OV-10 Bronco was a multi-purpose, light attack aircraft acquired by the Marine Corp for observation squadrons to conduct visual reconnaissance missions. The OV-10A is a twin-turboprop short takeoff and landing aircraft conceived by the Marine Corps and developed under an Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps tri-service program. The first production OV-10A was ordered in 1966 and its initial flight took place in August 1967. The OV-10 can be used for short take-offs and landings on aircraft carriers without the use of catapults. With the second seat removed, it can carry 3,200 pounds of cargo, five paratroopers or two litter patients and an attendant. Adding to its versatility is a rear fuselage compartment with a capacity of 3,200 pounds of cargo, five combat-equipped troops, or two litter patients and a medical attendant.




With the seat not removed, it could hold three troops.

LOOKEE under this drawing A GAU 20mm GUN POD!!! That is FIREPOWER!
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:57:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 9:08:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 9:09:26 AM EDT by topknot]
Sorry, wrong thread...
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 9:13:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By kpel308:
The doors are removed prior to takeoff. These are 1st ANGLICO Marines, back in 74 at Pendleton:

anglicoassociation.org/images/19741stAnglicoOV10BroncoJumpCampPendletonea.jpg
anglicoassociation.org/photogallery/photo1970s/19741stAnglicoOV10BroncoJumpCampPendletonf.jpg



Well that's cozy.

At least the first guy out gets a hell of a view...

Kharn
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 9:17:04 AM EDT
Lo-tech solutions for a lo-tech war.

Who'd a thunk it?
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 9:40:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kpel308:
Great minds think alike...



Link Posted: 4/12/2006 9:48:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bmick325:

Originally Posted By az_larry:
Wow, we have 4 of these in our back 40 that ol Floyd is taking apart right now.

edited to add pics
photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=17619&iGalleryUnq=158&iImageUnq=46300

photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=17619&iGalleryUnq=158&iImageUnq=46301



Might want to put the brakes on Floyd.



Actually I hear Floyd manufactures a new set of brakes for the OV-10. And as far as spare parts, the folks working on them need to contact me. Finding surplus obsolete parts are our livelyhood. One of the reasons they do the work in our facility besides being right next to the boneyard.

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 9:59:42 AM EDT
Let's bring back the O-1 while we're at it. I'm sure I can find a bunch of 170s in AeroTrader and resell them at a cozy profit.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 10:02:28 AM EDT
Hell, there are plenty of 337's around to become O2s again...
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 10:07:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CFII:
Hell, there are plenty of 337's around to become O2s again...



I'll broker them too. Paint them tan and double the price. Or paint them black and sell them as tactical versions for even more.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 10:12:35 AM EDT
Broncos, Dragonflys..............plenty of birds for COIN............heck, we could even get a few of those IA-58 Pucaras from Argentina........

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/ia58/ia58.htm
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 10:14:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cyclone:
Broncos, Dragonflys..............plenty of birds for COIN............heck, we could even get a few of those IA-58 Pucaras from Argentina........

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/ia58/ia58.htm



I forgot about the A-37. Given the amaizing performance that the Tweet gets I'd hate to see what a fully loaded Dragonfly would fly like.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 10:19:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 11:22:07 AM EDT
You guys are neglecting the Mohawk.

OV-1s were a damn nice aircraft. I think they'd be a good choice becaues of SLIR. They can also pack a bit of a punch too, with the outboard wing pylongs.

And yes, the OV-10s and A-37s are great birds too. I love the "underdog" type aircraft. Everyone wants to talk about the high-tech F-15, F-18, F-whatever, but these lil planes are capable of putting smoke where its needed.

Bring back the CoiN planes. Counter Insurgency, Counter-Interdiction
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 11:52:33 AM EDT
My bad.. apologies all around.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 1:21:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 1:22:18 PM EDT by az_larry]
Bottom line is there are enough A-10s to go around. And there a bunch already in mothballs that could go back to war. IMHO it's the best COIN aircraft ever built with an amazing survival rate with a high level of damage. And it packs more punch than anything ever built in it's class. They are the definition of Death from Above!
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 1:39:03 PM EDT
Nostalgia aside you FOG's , I think the Predator drones will suffice.
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