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Posted: 12/23/2003 1:46:24 PM EDT
On Fox News now
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 1:50:14 PM EDT
Should have closed the Canadian border decades ago. Not that the Canadians have anything to do with CJD, just on general principle, eh?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 1:55:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz: Should have closed the Canadian border decades ago. Not that the Canadians have anything to do with CJD, just on general principle, eh?
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It is thought that CWD which affects deer, elk etc and is now causing a problem in the western states came from Canada. From deer and elk sold to propagation farms.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:00:49 PM EDT
Mad Cow Disease? Isn't that the same disease that afflicts many of the man-hater chicks that are on the Oprah show?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:01:17 PM EDT
That's my understanding as well. It's only a matter of time until we're dealing with vCJD and BSE. Bad shit.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:04:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz: That's my understanding as well. It's only a matter of time until we're dealing with vCJD and BSE. Bad shit.
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Creutsfeld Jacob Disease? From what I uderstand the prions that cause CWD do act on human and bovine nerve tissue in laboratory environments. Not an expert by any means but read a lot about this stuff as it would devastate PA's deer heard.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:07:07 PM EDT
Found on a farm in Mabta, WA, 30 miles south of Yakima. Only 100 miles away from me...scary stuff.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:14:54 PM EDT
Are beef prices gonna go through the roof now?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:19:00 PM EDT
The human-acting variants, I believe, are vCJD (variant Creutzfeld-Jakob Disease) and nvCJD (new variant CJD). Again, though, it is firmly held that transmission is only through eating infected brain and nerve tissue from CJD-infected animals, like what one might find in hot dogs! Chew on that, sports fans.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:19:12 PM EDT
I saw a piece PBS KCET on Mad Cow, those prions can be active even buried in the dirt for 6 months. Pretty nasty stuff. I think people will stop eating beef. I think the incubation period for the disesase is something like 10 years.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:23:37 PM EDT
I heard a report that the cause of Mad Cow Disease in WA was a visit by Hitlery. Stong suspicion was that she bit the cow, infecting the poor animal!
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:32:13 PM EDT
[white][size=1]It's terrorisim...[/size=1][/white]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:49:25 PM EDT
not a good thing [img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-3/141064/cow11.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:03:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:25:34 PM EDT
How did this happen? Its been illegal to feed animal remains to beef cattle in this country for decades. This had to be deliberate.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:29:55 PM EDT
Just one cow that's not meant to be consumed... Oh yeah, I'm really scared now....
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:52:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 4:04:58 PM EDT by drjarhead]
Originally Posted By DefMan: Just one cow that's not meant to be consumed... Oh yeah, I'm really scared now....
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You need to be. Seriously. I had promised to do a thread about this a short time ago and just have not gotten to it yet. Had my own problems. Anyway, normal cooking temps do not kill these prions. They are not as differentiated as many would have you believe and there is little if any difference between the various prion diseases. They seem to be able to jump species boundaries given enough time and opportunity and they are very poorly understood as yet. [b]It can take years, even decades, for clinical signs to become apparent. Alot of people could become infected in the meantime[/b]. What to avoid: *ground meat *processed meats--sausage, weiners, sandwich meats *organ meats, esp liver *You would also, ideally, avoid cutting into bone What is safe? You really can't assume anything, unfortunately. The prions exist in highest concentrations in central nervous and lymphatic tissue. Those things I listed above as things to avoid are essentially, ground up everything. Fast food burgers are probably going to be your highest risk--nothing new there really. Guess they can sue me. Prions, are possibly the cause of diseases like Alheimers, Parkinson's, etc. They have been looked at extensively and no prions have been discovered associated with them but the jury is still out as far as I am concerned. The fact is we don't know shit about these little buggers which appear to be nothing but abberant forms of normal cell membrane proteins without any known DNA or RNA. They may be the simplest, perhaps earliest, forms of "life". Much of these diseases seem to originate in Sheep and animals fed sheep products. I would say with near certainty that the outbreak in the UK as well as CWD in deer, etc started in this manner. Tough to prove however. The USDA has held that we are somehow "safe" but they have not maintained tough enough control over the cattle industry and feed industry in the US. I told my family and friends who would listen about this about a month or so ago. The case in WA was unknown at that point. I am still working on them. Pretty tough as even soups, etc are risky. WE are all at risk. I've told people recently that I wasn't pushing the panic button but now my finger is hovering over it.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:56:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DefMan: Just one cow that's not meant to be consumed... Oh yeah, I'm really scared now....
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Then your ignorant, "one cow" was all it took to cause Canada's infestation. And result in destruction of large numbers of cattle, and a substantial increase in beef prices on both sides of the border. The disease isn't going to hurt humans at all, but it will kill off livestock and cause economic damage. It is a form of economic warfare. Could be accident, or it could be ELF or PETA types but not likely Muslims.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:56:24 PM EDT
Added: Don't feed your pets food made from lamb. Don't eat lamb........ My family and pets have not eaten lamb for many, many years now, FWIW. that is how seriously I consider this threat.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:16:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: The disease isn't going to hurt humans at all
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Just for everyone's edification: That would be incorrect.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:24:56 PM EDT
This is a horrible affliction. [img]junior.apk.net/~scotts/bull.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:28:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 7:37:44 PM EDT by DK-Prof]
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: How did this happen? Its been illegal to feed animal remains to beef cattle in this country for decades.
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You're joking right? Banning cattle meat from cattle feed didn't occur until the late 90's if I remember correctly, and cattle can STILL be fed chicken litter (including feces) from chickens that eat cattle meat products.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:31:32 PM EDT
Can we still eat pigs?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:45:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rainman: Can we still eat pigs?
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No prion diseases (transmissable spongiform encephalopathies) have yet been associated with swine. They are named for the pathologic changes that occur in infected brains. Large lytic lesions occur which cause the brain to resemble a sponge. It is NOT a pleasant way to die. [b]However[/b], considering the eating habits of pigs I would say that you cannot rule it out at all. I would also say that if it gets going in pigs it will move through a herd(?) rapidly. Poultry is probably okay but, unfortunately, while cows are no longer fed with feed containing beef or lamb, poultry is fed with feed containing both. Don't know if these will be able to cross such a wide species boundary or not. There is no question that we need to reconsider the way we raise, feed and process food in this country. My guess is that the gov't will be way late in properly dealing with this potential crisis.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:54:23 PM EDT
Guess we got no choice now but "soylent green". [puke]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:02:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Added: Don't feed your pets food made from lamb. Don't eat lamb........
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Don't eat your pets if they have eaten lamb.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:12:43 PM EDT
OMG!!!!!!!! I JUST HAD BROCCOLLI BEEF!!!!!!!!! [SHOCK]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:20:11 PM EDT
Guess I [b]must[/b] buy the Oregon Angus beef now... or mail order from Iowa. I'll be grinding my own from here on out I see.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:20:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 6:12:17 PM EDT by sloth]
I've sort of thought this might happen sooner or later. THere seems to be an increasing number of cases associated with wild animals in the west. Not suprising that it made the jump. I also would not rule out our friends at PETA. This is not good for the beef industry. Not because of the health problems, but rather because of the emotional impact that its going to have. My family raises beef and I now have a few head wondering around. I do not share DocJarheads assesment. What is of concern is the tough nature of prions. What I've read is that they are pretty tough buggers to kill. I think its the unknown factor that is most worrysome about these things. With that said, I have not seem any solid evidence that these are highly transmitable. Traditionally you see these conditions in tribes that make a habit of eating the brains of deceased family. I certainly wouldn't be eating the brains of any cattle in the near future, but I will continue to eat steak and lots of it medium rare as always.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:58:39 PM EDT
I had already eaten one roast beef sandwich and was well into the 2nd when I heard the news... I chuckled then ate the rest of my sandwich.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 6:02:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sloth: I do not share DocJarheads assesment.
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That is fair enough. I hope you are right and I am wrong but I am not convinced that that is the case. Unfortunately, it will be a long time before we know by which time this might get quite out of hand. Transmission of prion disease is not an easy thing obviously or there would've been more cases in the UK. AND there was transmission to humans there with all dying. There is currently a teenager in FL with vCJD/madcow whcih he likely was infected with in the UK as he is an immigrant here. Transmission is thought to be via ingestion, sexual contact, mother-fetus, probably via blood products. So far... Once again, infection is likely somewhat dependent on infectious dose. This is something I have beaten to death here and in the medical community. Simply getting a germ is not as important as how big a dose of the agent you are infected with. It makes the difference between a severe, rapidly fulminant disease or a mild case. So does the host immune response and this is likely important early on (supposition on my part based on other agents) but once you develop the disease it is [b]100% fatal[/b]. I will stand by my assessment as always. I post very little here without making certain I know what I am talking about, though I am not perfect, of course. I would also say that this popped up on my radar screen long before today.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 6:10:17 PM EDT
What is really interesting is that some prions have very normal cellular functions. On a positive side of this issue is that we are understanding the nature of structural biochemistry from a whole new perspective. I share your concern as for the shear unknow factor surrounding the nature of harmful prions. I also applaude your honest assesment. You were very clear that while you had certian personal opinions you also made sure that you used terms that conveyed the scientific uncertainty of this issue. I just hope as this story breaks others are as open an honest concering the uncertain nature of this problem and don't use the issue to advance a vegan agenda.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 6:16:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: ... It is NOT a pleasant way to die....
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I haven’t a clue regarding the ins and outs of this disease. But I recall seeing a (I think) NOVA program on it a few months ago that went into some detail concerning the human victims of it in England. Very, very scary!! And this certainly isn’t going to help our economy!!! [pissed]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 6:40:41 PM EDT
What I have read seemed to indicate that the mad cow/vCJD link was based on the following... I think it was 12 cases in the UK were exposed (believed to have eaten contaminated beef). vCJD has a relatively low rate of occurance in western culture (1:1000000) and the disease typically infects older individuals (over 55). Due to the cluster of cases that did not follow the typical profile of the disease, along with the belief that they consumed contaminated food, a link was assumed. It is also of note that while the prion in this outbreak in England was more similar to the mad cow prion than the traditional vCJD, the prions were not the same.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:05:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sloth: What I have read seemed to indicate that the mad cow/vCJD link was based on the following... I think it was 12 cases in the UK were exposed (believed to have eaten contaminated beef).
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120 deaths, though a couple of sources reported slightly more.
vCJD has a relatively low rate of occurance in western culture (1:1000000) and the disease typically infects older individuals (over 55). Due to the cluster of cases that did not follow the typical profile of the disease, along with the belief that they consumed contaminated food, a link was assumed.
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CJD affects the older population in general. Perhaps it is just slower for some reason currently unknown. It is known that by subsequently passing a prion from say a deer to some other creature and then through other members of its own species that the length of time between infection, disease and death decreases as does its ease of transfer. Interesting. vCJD is simply human infection of madcow. Just nomeclature. It does seem causes disease in younger individuals. Perhaps for reason noted above, increased infectious dose or other as yet not understood factor.
It is also of note that while the prion in this outbreak in England was more similar to the mad cow prion than the traditional vCJD, the prions were not the same.
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I'd like to see your source for that as I have searched pretty extensively for evidnece of variation in these different TSEs but have found no firm proof of same. In fact, when people have made these claims they have generally been dismissed for the inability to replicate results. I am not at all convinced that these are not ALL the same "critter" although I do not feel confident in claiming either. Unfortunately the primary structure of thes proteins has not been elucidated and for this to be determined it would be necessary to do so.
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Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:14:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 7:15:39 PM EDT by ColonelKlink]
FUCK. You just turned me into a hypochondriac. I am a beef eating machine.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:18:15 PM EDT
According to the arcticle I read on msn, the brain and nervous system of the infected cow was sent to a rendering plant and the rest of the animal was processed. Why the hell would they continue to process the animal knowing its infected. They should have destroyed the whole animal. Now some unlucky consumer gets to eat the meat from the infected cow. The rendering plant will turn the brain and nervous system into infected feed for animals.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:23:53 PM EDT
illinois: yep that right, a woman in England got nvCJD from blood fertilizer for her plants.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:26:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: FUCK. You just turned me into a hypochondriac. I am a beef eating machine.
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I would not say everyone has to give up beef, or any meat at this point. However, the guidleines I stated earlier are quite reasonable at this point. The best thing would be to raise your own beef, butcher it carefully and grind your own. Not very practical for all of us though we are discussing getting a meat grinder for several weeks now as there is no ground beef in my home. Family is not likely to give up burgers no matter what I say, though. Fast food burgers are OUT however, and I have eaten my last. I think steak is okay but anything could be contaminated. More likely though that prions on the outside surface will be destroyed thru heat(hopefully at least most of them). The inner portions of a steak or burger will not get near hot enough. Obviously burger is the greater threat. If you don't get it, ask. Perhaps some of you can find a farmer or rancher you trust and check out the way he feeds and butchers his animals.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:31:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Fast food burgers are OUT however, and I have eaten my last. I think steak is okay but anything could be contaminated. More likely though that prions on the outside surface will be destroyed thru heat(hopefully at least most of them). The inner portions of a steak or burger will not get near hot enough. Obviously burger is the greater threat. If you don't get it, ask.
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(ask what?) So if burgers are out, what do you eat on the road? Chicken sandwiches? Turkey burgers? Salads?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:49:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Merrell:
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Fast food burgers are OUT however, and I have eaten my last. I think steak is okay but anything could be contaminated. More likely though that prions on the outside surface will be destroyed thru heat(hopefully at least most of them). The inner portions of a steak or burger will not get near hot enough. Obviously burger is the greater threat. If you don't get it, ask.
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(ask what?)
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The answer is that ground beed has elements from the outside as well as all the scraps ground up into it. Hence, the contaminants are inside the meat(burger) where they are even less likely to be destroyed. Even cooked burger has live bacteria within, FWIW. From the answer you should be able to discern the question.[;)]
So if burgers are out, what do you eat on the road? Chicken sandwiches? Turkey burgers? Salads?
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I'm still working on it. Tough when we get pizza at work and all that is left has sausage and pepperoni on it. Not to mention cheese. Not sure if that is a threat or not. I'm trying to go after the more obvious changes now for myself and family and keep working on them. Like I said, I'm still working on it myself. Not easy given the way food is mass produced and packaged in this country. I do really like salad, fortunately.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:50:30 PM EDT
I'm glad I'm not the only one. The first word that went through my mind when I heard this news was "PETA". I wouldn't put it past those fuckers that's for sure. If any group meets the definition of "terrorist organization" I'd think they'd be one of them. Damned if I'm going to go vegan though. I'll just kill and eat PETA members instead of beef. [:D] Cpt. Redleg
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:10:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Originally Posted By Merrell:
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Fast food burgers are OUT however, and I have eaten my last. I think steak is okay but anything could be contaminated. More likely though that prions on the outside surface will be destroyed thru heat(hopefully at least most of them). The inner portions of a steak or burger will not get near hot enough. Obviously burger is the greater threat. If you don't get it, ask.
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(ask what?)
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The answer is that ground beed has elements from the outside as well as all the scraps ground up into it. Hence, the contaminants are inside the meat(burger) where they are even less likely to be destroyed. Even cooked burger has live bacteria within, FWIW. From the answer you should be able to discern the question.[;)]
So if burgers are out, what do you eat on the road? Chicken sandwiches? Turkey burgers? Salads?
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I'm still working on it. Tough when we get pizza at work and all that is left has sausage and pepperoni on it. Not to mention cheese. Not sure if that is a threat or not. I'm trying to go after the more obvious changes now for myself and family and keep working on them. Like I said, I'm still working on it myself. Not easy given the way food is mass produced and packaged in this country. I do really like salad, fortunately.
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Sorta thought that's what you were getting at... did I read right in an earlier post that 900F is required to neutralize/zap/nuke these prion thingies? Wouldn't that require grilling or broiling all steaks (don't think you're quite at 900 in a pan, even on high) Furthermore, would you have to pitch all preparation surfaces if these buggers are indestructible? (not to mention cross-contamination in restaurant prep surfaces)
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:17:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Transmission is thought to be via ingestion, sexual contact, mother-fetus, probably via blood products. So far...
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Damn, all of the cow humpers out there better start using rubbers. LOL!
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:58:46 PM EDT
Found on a farm in Mabta, WA,
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Sh!T. I live 40 miles down valley from there and I just ate at Arbey's [xx(] The local news: [url]http://www.kapptv.com/index.php?section_id=668&xstate=view_story&story_id=160496[/url]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:07:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Merrell: Sorta thought that's what you were getting at... did I read right in an earlier post that 900F is required to neutralize/zap/nuke these prion thingies? Wouldn't that require grilling or broiling all steaks (don't think you're quite at 900 in a pan, even on high) Furthermore, would you have to pitch all preparation surfaces if these buggers are indestructible? (not to mention cross-contamination in restaurant prep surfaces)
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I'm not sure that there is any specific temp at whcih 100% kill is assured. For most bacteria we have kill curves which tell us what proportion of bacteria are destroyed at given temps and duration. [i]Hopefully[/i] some are destroyed at higher cooking temps on the outside. No sure thing here, and to be honest there has not been enough research into prions. I bet there will be soon however. I guess that we cannot give up eating everything and my goal is to increase my odds, not attain 100% safety as that is unattainable for most of us who are dependent on others to raise and prepare our food. This does, however, make us vulnerable and you must also realize that the number of dead from the UK outbreak could swell considerable as time goes on. We may well be looking at decades and the dead so far may only be the first wave. My advise and guidelines is meant to give those here who are concerned basic, common sense, precautions which may improve their odds. I know more about prions than most people and am trying to impart some of my knowledge and extrapolate based on my knowledge and experience with other microbes to make some basic conclusions. I can guarantee nothing at this point. My fear is that the gov't will sweep this under the rug and that the cattle industry will do anything to prevent loss of business. This would be a mistake and will be far more costly in the longrun. The same mistake that was made in the UK madcow outbreak and the same as was made with SARS in China last year.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:08:37 PM EDT
hmmm... that story says the berzerk bovine was processed at Midway Meats in Centralia... a quick Google brought this up: [url]http://www.wanewscouncil.org/Complaint%20Resolutions.htm[/url] any locals have the scoop on who's shooting straight in this story?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:18:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: My advise and guidelines is meant to give those here who are concerned basic, common sense, precautions which may improve their odds. I know more about prions than most people and am trying to impart some of my knowledge and extrapolate based on my knowledge and experience with other microbes to make some basic conclusions. I can guarantee nothing at this point.
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Any recommendations on further reading? Amazon kicked these two out: The Pathological Protein: Mad Cow, Chronic Wasting, and Other Deadly Prion Diseases by Philip Yam and Secret Agents: The Menace of Emerging Infections by Madeline Drexler
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:24:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Merrell: Sorta thought that's what you were getting at... did I read right in an earlier post that 900F is required to neutralize/zap/nuke these prion thingies? Wouldn't that require grilling or broiling all steaks (don't think you're quite at 900 in a pan, even on high) Furthermore, would you have to pitch all preparation surfaces if these buggers are indestructible? (not to mention cross-contamination in restaurant prep surfaces)
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LOL. I don't want 900 degrees coming anywhere near my steak. I want mine still mooing and bloody!
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 11:01:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By illinois: ... Why the hell would they continue to process the animal knowing its infected. They should have destroyed the whole animal. ...
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I’m assuredly no expert on this (though I’ve certainly learned a bit the last 6 hours or so [:D]), but my impression is that they take routinely take tissue samples from cows that appear that they may have the disease. These cows are handled differently to prevent possibly diseased parts (brain, spinal cord and such) from entering the human food chain. However, the cow parts that don’t carry the disease such as the muscle are allowed to enter the food chain. Apparently the samples are analyzed at a later date, so they didn’t know the cow was actually diseased at the time. Per the news, they still aren’t completely certain that the cow had mad cow disease and are sending the tissue samples to England for further analysis. Lest wise, that’s my understanding!! And as far as I’m concerned, if there’s [b]any[/b] doubt about the cow, none of it should enter the food chain – period!!
Originally Posted By drjarhead: ... though we are discussing getting a meat grinder for several weeks now as there is no ground beef in my home. ...
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I have visions of an upcoming food grinder shortage!! [:D]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 4:12:53 AM EDT
In October, 1996, scientists in England reported that the prions from ten of the British patients were remarkably like those of the mad cows and not like those of people who died of "classical" CJD. Scientists quickly realized that the occurrence of CJD in a dozen people 19 to 39 years old was cause for alarm, because CJD had always been rare--typically one new case might be diagnosed per million people each year--and seldom occurred in people younger than 55. Pulled this info off of the HIH site. I should have made it clearer that it seemed this specific group of young infected people was what tipped scientist off that they were not dealing with the traditional vCJD. The source on the specific strain chacteristics is Nature 1996, 383: 685-690. [url]http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v383/n6602/full/383685a0.html&filetype=pdf[/url] while a bit dated, still an interesting read. The actual reference seems to indicate a stronger relationship between the mad cow prion and the new CJD variant, than the NIH document I first read. The method for comparison was western blotting, and I agree that a structural elucidation is needed to confirm the specific source of the different prions.
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