

Posted: 2/21/2016 10:03:11 AM EDT
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Biography of Harry 'Breaker' Harbord Morant
To the Rev. Canon Fisher Pretoria The night before we're shot We shot the Boers who killed and mutilated our friend (the best mate I had on Earth) Harry Harbord Morant Peter Joseph Handcock |
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Great movie. The Brits seem to have the best when it comes to institutionalized stupidity.
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Biography of Harry 'Breaker' Harbord Morant
To the Rev. Canon Fisher Pretoria The night before we're shot We shot the Boers who killed and mutilated our friend (the best mate I had on Earth) Harry Harbord Morant Peter Joseph Handcock Who is riding brown Harlequin now? They are mustering cattle on Brigalow Vale Where the stock-horses whinny and stamp, And where long Andy Ferguson, you may go bail, Is yet boss on a cutting-out camp. Half the duffers I met would not know a fat steer From a blessed old Alderney cow. Whilst they're mustering there I am wondering here - Who is riding brown Harlequin now? Are the pikers as wild and the scrubs just as dense In the brigalow country as when There was never a homestead and never a fence Between Brigalow Vale and The Glen? Do they yard the big micks 'neath the light of the moon? Do the yard-wings re-echo the row Of stockwhips and hoof-beats? And what sort of coon Is there riding old Harlequin now? There was buckjumping blood in the brown gelding's veins, But, lean-headed, with iron-like pins, Of Pyrrhus and Panic he'd plentiful strains, All their virtues, and some of their sins. 'Twas the pity, some said, that so shapely a colt Fate should with such temper endow; He would kick and would strike, he would buck and would bolt - Ah! who's riding brown Harlequin now? A demon to handle! a devil to ride! Small wonder the surcingle burst; You'd have thought that he'd buck himself out of his hide On the morning we saddled him first. I can mind how he cow-kicked the spur on my boot, And though that's long ago, still I vow If they're wheeling a piker no new-chum galoot Is a-riding old Harlequin now! I remember the boss - how he chuckled and laughed When they yarded the brown colt for me: "He'll be steady enough when we finish the graft And have cleaned up the scrubs of Glen Leigh!' I am wondering today if the brown horse yet live, For the fellow who broke him, I trow, A long lease of soul-ease would willingly give To be riding brown Harlequin now! 'Do you think you can hold him?' old Ferguson said - He was mounted on Homet, the grey; I think Harlequin heard him - he shook his lean head, And he needed no holding that day. Not a prick from a spur, nor a sting from a whip As he raced among deadwood and bough While I sat fairly quiet and just let him rip - But who's riding old Harlequin now? I could hear 'em a-crashing the gidgee in front As the Bryan colt streaked to the lead Whilst the boss and the niggers were out of the hunt. For their horses lacked Harlequin's speed; The pikers were yarded and skies growing dim When old Fergie was fain to allow: 'The colt's track through the scrub was a knocker' to him - But who's riding brown Harlequin now? From starlight to starlight - all day in between The foam-flakes might fly from his bit, But whatever the pace of the day's work had been, The brown gelding was eager and fit. On the packhorse's back they are fixing a load Where the path climbs the hill's gloomy brow; They are mustering bullocks to send on the road, But - who's riding old Harlequin now? Harry 'Breaker' Harbord Morant |
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Great movie. The Brits seem to have the best when it comes to institutionalized stupidity. View Quote King's Cross Fire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King's_Cross_fire |
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A great war movie, and a great courtroom film.
I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. |
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A great war movie, and a great courtroom film. I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. View Quote great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie |
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great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A great war movie, and a great courtroom film. I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie Why would anyone not see him as sympathetic? I know --colonialism. Evil empire. He was doing his duty |
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Quoted: great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: A great war movie, and a great courtroom film. I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie Rule 303! |
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What little I've read about The Boer Wars, they used the very effective tactic the Confederates *had* adopted and used mid-point in the war; Sharpshooter battalions. The Boers made mincemeat of the Brits...at first
Someone here I'm sure, could certainly elaborate more on the subject better than I But like the Confederacy of course, the Boers finally had to succumb to the overwhelming might of their foe |
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What little I've read about The Boer Wars, they used the very effective tactic the Confederates *had* adopted and used mid-point in the war; Sharpshooter battalions. The Boers made mincemeat of the Brits...at first Someone here I'm sure, could certainly elaborate more on the subject better than I But like the Confederacy of course, the Boers finally had to succumb to the overwhelming might of their foe View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
What little I've read about The Boer Wars, they used the very effective tactic the Confederates *had* adopted and used mid-point in the war; Sharpshooter battalions. The Boers made mincemeat of the Brits...at first Someone here I'm sure, could certainly elaborate more on the subject better than I But like the Confederacy of course, the Boers finally had to succumb to the overwhelming might of their foe The Boers gave us the term Komando...... The Bushveldt Carbineers were assembled to a goodly extent from outback roughneck colonials to do the dirty work that needed to be done....the work the Brits were not up to. The Bushveldt Carbineers (BVC) were a short-lived, irregular mounted infantry regiment of the British Army, raised in South Africa during the Second Boer War.
The 320-strong regiment was formed in February 1901 and commanded by an Australian Colonel R. W. Lenehan. It was based at Pietersburg, 260 Kilometres north-east of Pretoria, and saw action in the Spelonken region of the Northern Transvaal during 1901–1902. About forty percent of the men in the BVC were Australians, and the regiment also included about forty surrendered Boers, known as "joiners", who had been recruited from the internment camps. I am guessing that guys like Morant and Hunt gave the Brits what then needed to negotiate a favorable truce with the Boers. No doubt the Brits who worried about their reputation and Lord Kitchner's wanted to write their own version of "history" |
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"Nobody ever misses a slice off a cut loaf."
That was this one, wasn't it? |
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Why would anyone not see him as sympathetic? I know --colonialism. Evil empire. He was doing his duty View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A great war movie, and a great courtroom film. I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie Why would anyone not see him as sympathetic? I know --colonialism. Evil empire. He was doing his duty This is the guy that executed POWs right? |
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Quoted: This is the guy that executed POWs right? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A great war movie, and a great courtroom film. I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie Why would anyone not see him as sympathetic? I know --colonialism. Evil empire. He was doing his duty This is the guy that executed POWs right? Yeah. That wasn't what got him jammed up. He had a parson shot, who was German national and sympathetic to and likely helping the Boers. Brits wanted to placate the Germans, who had a colony in the neighborhood at the time. (Pre WWI). |
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Quoted: Yeah. That wasn't what got him jammed up. He had a parson shot, who was German national and sympathetic to and likely helping the Boers. Brits wanted to placate the Germans, who had a colony in the neighborhood at the time. (Pre WWI). View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A great war movie, and a great courtroom film. I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie Why would anyone not see him as sympathetic? I know --colonialism. Evil empire. He was doing his duty This is the guy that executed POWs right? Yeah. That wasn't what got him jammed up. He had a parson shot, who was German national and sympathetic to and likely helping the Boers. Brits wanted to placate the Germans, who had a colony in the neighborhood at the time. (Pre WWI). Yes, the Brits were worried about riling up the Germans, who sympathetic to the Boers (who were descended from Dutch settlers). Very good book on that war: "The Great Anglo-Boer War". . .by Byron Farwell |
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I really like the movie but I had no idea until this thread it was based on people and events that actually occurred
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This is the guy that executed POWs illegal combatants right? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A great war movie, and a great courtroom film. I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie Why would anyone not see him as sympathetic? I know --colonialism. Evil empire. He was doing his duty This is the guy that executed POWs illegal combatants right? FIFY |
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Empires are awesome, if you have the will to keep them standing. When you don't, they come apart at the seams, overnight. (in historic context). View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This is what becomes of empire building... Empires are awesome, if you have the will to keep them standing. When you don't, they come apart at the seams, overnight. (in historic context). My family benefitted greatly from the American Empire. My grandfather was born a Spanish subject of Italian extraction. He had a much better life when America took Puerto Rico His sons all served in the US Army. He himself was an electrician for the corps of engineers |
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http://i3.cpcache.com/product/196090279/303_oval_sticker.jpg?color=White&height=460&width=460&qv=90 View Quote If that is an actual sticker, primus will,likely order a few. ![]() |
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Quoted: If that is an actual sticker, primus will,likely order a few. ![]() View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: If that is an actual sticker, primus will,likely order a few. ![]() ![]() (because I'll run them on my vehicles too) |
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He should wait until I do the actual cafepress design that says "RULE .303" ![]() (because I'll run them on my vehicles too) View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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If that is an actual sticker, primus will,likely order a few. ![]() ![]() (because I'll run them on my vehicles too) PM me when you make.....i need one. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If that is an actual sticker, primus will,likely order a few. ![]() ![]() (because I'll run them on my vehicles too) PM me when you make.....i need one. RULE 303! |
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Why would anyone not see him as sympathetic? I know --colonialism. Evil empire. He was doing his duty View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A great war movie, and a great courtroom film. I have read, however, that Morant was much more of a loose cannon than the sympathetic character the film presents. great movie the guy who made the movie was surprised and dismayed that people saw Breaker Morant as a sympathetic character but most people don't mentally process nuance they need a hero in a movie Why would anyone not see him as sympathetic? I know --colonialism. Evil empire. He was doing his duty You can read up on it if you like, there is plenty of information available at this point. Basically, they belonged to an undisciplined army that sort of made a practice of looting boer farms and shooting boer prisoners. But the practice was against their own legal code. They were the ones who got caught, probably because they murdered a german missionary to keep him reporting the murder of other Boer prisoners. You cannot say they were "scapegoated" because 1. They actually murdered the prisoners. and 2. They were under no obligation to follow an illegal order. As soon as they did the illegal act, they became part of the criminal conspiracy and were guilty. Those two points were the basis of the Nuremburg trials after WWII. There is no moral or legal way of excusing a crime by saying you were ordered to commit a crime. So the other question is - were there higher officers who deserved to die with Morant? Probably yes. The movie makes it very plain that Morant had no moral or legal authority to kill the prisoners under the british military code. That's what that mumbo jumbo about "rule 303" amounts to. By saying that, he admits that there is no legal basis for summarily executing prisoners. He's literally admitting that he did it as an expedient. if you guys approve of killing POWs, then you must be a big fan of the Malmedy massacre. I guess the germans could say the killed all the americans under "rule 8mm" then you'd be all happy because there was a dorky little slogan associated with the crime |
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You can read up on it if you like, there is plenty of information available at this point. Basically, they belonged to an undisciplined army that sort of made a practice of looting boer farms and shooting boer prisoners. But the practice was against their own legal code. They were the ones who got caught, probably because they murdered a german missionary to keep him reporting the murder of other Boer prisoners. You cannot say they were "scapegoated" because 1. They actually murdered the prisoners. and 2. They were under no obligation to follow an illegal order. As soon as they did the illegal act, they became part of the criminal conspiracy and were guilty. Those two points were the basis of the Nuremburg trials after WWII. There is no moral or legal way of excusing a crime by saying you were ordered to commit a crime. So the other question is - were there higher officers who deserved to die with Morant? Probably yes. The movie makes it very plain that Morant had no moral or legal authority to kill the prisoners under the british military code. That's what that mumbo jumbo about "rule 303" amounts to. By saying that, he admits that there is no legal basis for summarily executing prisoners. He's literally admitting that he did it as an expedient. if you guys approve of killing POWs, then you must be a big fan of the Malmedy massacre. I guess the germans could say the killed all the americans under "rule 8mm" then you'd be all happy because there was a dorky little slogan associated with the crime View Quote This has lots of anachronisms in it. Both reprisal and summary executions were considered reasonable acts (I.e. Within international custom) until after WWII. For example, the reprisals against Italian civilians during the occupation of Rome were justified during the time after multiple attacks on German soldiers. Rule 303 refers to the wildly referenced likely word of mouth order regarding reprisals and illegal combatants from Kitchener. It was very likely a "who will rid me of this troublesome priest" style statement, but most contemporary Imperial officers had referenced it. |
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This has lots of anachronisms in it. Both reprisal and summary executions were considered reasonable acts (I.e. Within international custom) until after WWII. For example, the reprisals against Italian civilians during the occupation of Rome were justified during the time after multiple attacks on German soldiers. Rule 303 refers to the wildly referenced likely word of mouth order regarding reprisals and illegal combatants from Kitchener. It was very likely a "who will rid me of this troublesome priest" style statement, but most contemporary Imperial officers had referenced it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You can read up on it if you like, there is plenty of information available at this point. Basically, they belonged to an undisciplined army that sort of made a practice of looting boer farms and shooting boer prisoners. But the practice was against their own legal code. They were the ones who got caught, probably because they murdered a german missionary to keep him reporting the murder of other Boer prisoners. You cannot say they were "scapegoated" because 1. They actually murdered the prisoners. and 2. They were under no obligation to follow an illegal order. As soon as they did the illegal act, they became part of the criminal conspiracy and were guilty. Those two points were the basis of the Nuremburg trials after WWII. There is no moral or legal way of excusing a crime by saying you were ordered to commit a crime. So the other question is - were there higher officers who deserved to die with Morant? Probably yes. The movie makes it very plain that Morant had no moral or legal authority to kill the prisoners under the british military code. That's what that mumbo jumbo about "rule 303" amounts to. By saying that, he admits that there is no legal basis for summarily executing prisoners. He's literally admitting that he did it as an expedient. if you guys approve of killing POWs, then you must be a big fan of the Malmedy massacre. I guess the germans could say the killed all the americans under "rule 8mm" then you'd be all happy because there was a dorky little slogan associated with the crime This has lots of anachronisms in it. Both reprisal and summary executions were considered reasonable acts (I.e. Within international custom) until after WWII. For example, the reprisals against Italian civilians during the occupation of Rome were justified during the time after multiple attacks on German soldiers. Rule 303 refers to the wildly referenced likely word of mouth order regarding reprisals and illegal combatants from Kitchener. It was very likely a "who will rid me of this troublesome priest" style statement, but most contemporary Imperial officers had referenced it. I believe you are mistaken - there was no sanction under English military law for shooting prisoners the lawyer for morant could not even find evidence for an unofficial order or for germans, the prosecutors at Nuremburg made great hay out of the fact that shooting civillians was specifically illegal under german law |
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I believe you are mistaken - there was no sanction under English military law for shooting prisoners the lawyer for morant could not even find evidence for an unofficial order or for germans, the prosecutors at Nuremburg made great hay out of the fact that shooting civillians was specifically illegal under german law View Quote The Nuremburg prosecutors made great hay out of creating case law from whole cloth. Reprisals were indeed legal and customary in the specific case of the Roman reprisals but the Germans made such an appealing enemy that all sorts of Italian legal fictions (but I repeat myself) were made to justify their prosecution. The German law was specific for domestic operations. US military allows as a legal (though not functionally, and certainly not lethally) reprisal as justifiable. Second, its not like the lawyer for Morant had an exceedingly long period of time to generate a defense. The difference between what the British were doing with the Boers and what the British did (after WWII, no less) during the Mau Mau Rebellion was that the Boer War included white people as belligerents. To claim that the British were somehow more restrained 50 years prior beggars belief. The BVC were commanded by Kitchener's own -2, Captain Taylor. Both of Morant's superiors (including Taylor) and Kitchner's own CoS had asked why he had taken prisoners in the past, and that they should be shot. |
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The Boers wore civilian clothes or capture bits of British Khaki uniforms, conducted raids behind the lines or at night. By all standards of warfare at the time, they could be executed. The Brits were not squeamish about such things. They rounded up thousands of civilians,tossed them in camps, burned their farms and killed the livestock. many civilians died. Trying to apply post WW2 standards to the Boer war is kinda silly.
The priest was bad juju. |
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Morant & Handcock are asked if they want the priest.
Morant: "No, thank you. I'm a pagan." Handcock: "What's a pagan?" Morant: "Well, it's somebody who doesn't believe there's a divine being dispensing justice to mankind." Handcock: "I'm a pagan, too." |
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The Boers wore civilian clothes or capture bits of British Khaki uniforms, conducted raids behind the lines or at night. By all standards of warfare at the time, they could be executed. The Brits were not squeamish about such things. They rounded up thousands of civilians,tossed them in camps, burned their farms and killed the livestock. many civilians died. Trying to apply post WW2 standards to the Boer war is kinda silly. The priest was bad juju. View Quote By current standards, they could be, too. Wearing enemy uniforms or civilian clothes is perfidy, and the ICRC isn't really going to care if there is some kind of competent tribunal that tries and executes the wearers. |
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The Nuremburg prosecutors made great hay out of creating case law from whole cloth. Reprisals were indeed legal and customary in the specific case of the Roman reprisals but the Germans made such an appealing enemy that all sorts of Italian legal fictions (but I repeat myself) were made to justify their prosecution. The German law was specific for domestic operations. US military allows as a legal (though not functionally, and certainly not lethally) reprisal as justifiable. Second, its not like the lawyer for Morant had an exceedingly long period of time to generate a defense. The difference between what the British were doing with the Boers and what the British did (after WWII, no less) during the Mau Mau Rebellion was that the Boer War included white people as belligerents. To claim that the British were somehow more restrained 50 years prior beggars belief. The BVC were commanded by Kitchener's own -2, Captain Taylor. Both of Morant's superiors (including Taylor) and Kitchner's own CoS had asked why he had taken prisoners in the past, and that they should be shot. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I believe you are mistaken - there was no sanction under English military law for shooting prisoners the lawyer for morant could not even find evidence for an unofficial order or for germans, the prosecutors at Nuremburg made great hay out of the fact that shooting civillians was specifically illegal under german law The Nuremburg prosecutors made great hay out of creating case law from whole cloth. Reprisals were indeed legal and customary in the specific case of the Roman reprisals but the Germans made such an appealing enemy that all sorts of Italian legal fictions (but I repeat myself) were made to justify their prosecution. The German law was specific for domestic operations. US military allows as a legal (though not functionally, and certainly not lethally) reprisal as justifiable. Second, its not like the lawyer for Morant had an exceedingly long period of time to generate a defense. The difference between what the British were doing with the Boers and what the British did (after WWII, no less) during the Mau Mau Rebellion was that the Boer War included white people as belligerents. To claim that the British were somehow more restrained 50 years prior beggars belief. The BVC were commanded by Kitchener's own -2, Captain Taylor. Both of Morant's superiors (including Taylor) and Kitchner's own CoS had asked why he had taken prisoners in the past, and that they should be shot. it's been a long time since I was up to speed in the specifics of this event but, the fact remains that everyone who could disavow participation these killings did so and the three defendants were sentenced to death for it by the british that doesn't jive with your assertion that the brits had a policy or legally sanctioned the killings if they were killing prisoners then it was an illegal "take good care of those prisoners wink wink" kind of deal |
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The Boers wore civilian clothes or capture bits of British Khaki uniforms, conducted raids behind the lines or at night. By all standards of warfare at the time, they could be executed. The Brits were not squeamish about such things. They rounded up thousands of civilians,tossed them in camps, burned their farms and killed the livestock. many civilians died. Trying to apply post WW2 standards to the Boer war is kinda silly. The priest was bad juju. View Quote This is what I was thinking. Illegal combatants were summarily shot back then is my understanding |
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By current standards, they could be, too. Wearing enemy uniforms or civilian clothes is perfidy, and the ICRC isn't really going to care if there is some kind of competent tribunal that tries and executes the wearers. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The Boers wore civilian clothes or capture bits of British Khaki uniforms, conducted raids behind the lines or at night. By all standards of warfare at the time, they could be executed. The Brits were not squeamish about such things. They rounded up thousands of civilians,tossed them in camps, burned their farms and killed the livestock. many civilians died. Trying to apply post WW2 standards to the Boer war is kinda silly. The priest was bad juju. By current standards, they could be, too. Wearing enemy uniforms or civilian clothes is perfidy, and the ICRC isn't really going to care if there is some kind of competent tribunal that tries and executes the wearers. I always wondered why ISIS and AQ couldn't be dispatched on the battlefield |
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