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Posted: 4/30/2001 7:54:11 PM EDT
I am sure most of know that Remington has bent over to the anti's and is not fully supporting our RKBA. Remington has decided that the PSS series is "restricted to law enforcement only." Fortunately for those who wish to buy one, there are distributors who ignore Remington's restrictions and sell to the public anyway. Of course, there is no legal reason to prohibit us lowly citizens from owning a bolt action gun. The PSS is the same gun as the 700 VS (which they do sell to the public) with a slightly different stock. I don't even like the fact that remington is integrating a triggerlock on their rifles when they are not required by law to do so.
Having said that, I am in the market for a .308 precision "marksman" rifle to complete my "Liberty" plans. I would like the rem 700 action, b/c that seems to be the most widely used and the most accessories and upgrades available for, but I haven't been able to bring myself to support a company that doesn't fully support our RKBA. Because of this I am considering the Winchester 70, Steyr, and FN, but I really like the Rem 700VS. It's starting to look like if I boycott all the businesses who compromise our RKBA, there will be few left to do business with. Any thoughts on this?
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:56:18 PM EDT
Ever think of a Savage Model 10FP?  Got no complaints about mine.  
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:58:01 PM EDT
One of the best questions asked on the board.
It seems to me, the smaller the company, the more 2nd ammendment they are.
Good bolt gun? I would recommend the Ruger, but they are almost as PC.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:11:51 PM EDT
I checked the stock on mine, it does not touch. I got lucky with the trigger, it's not bad at all.  Perfect for hunting, but it could use a little tunning, for target work.  From what I've heard the triggers vary, rifle to rifle.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:12:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By David M:
Ever think of a Savage Model 10FP?  Got no complaints about mine.  
View Quote

My shooting buddy had a savage 10FP, but the quality was not up to what we wanted. The stock was a little warped and touched the barrel slightly, and we did not like the trigger. If you replace those two things it would be a great rifle, but after the cost of a good stock and trigger, the costs are comparable to those I am considering. It is accurate, and I think it is a great value for the money.  I am just willing to spend a little more for a little nicer rifle. Thanks.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:19:42 PM EDT
Savage has made a few 10FPs with the Ultimate Varminter stock and a sharp shooter trigger. I got mine for $440. The trigger is good, and the stock is comfortable and adjustable. That might be looking into for what you are talking about, and a hell of a lot cheaper than the Remington.

Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:24:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:29:22 PM EDT
You better be carefull, before long with everyone wanting to boycott somebody; there won't be anyone left to buy from.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:37:04 PM EDT
If you are true to your word and principles
as expressed here you will not by a Remington
nor a Rugur. You will buy a Savage and put in a
new trigger group and a custom made stock. When
finished you will have a custom made rifle and
the satisfaction of telling Remington with your
money, the money they could have had, that you

Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:43:03 PM EDT
Send a polite and inquisitive E-mail to Remington regarding your concerns, and tell them you expect a prompt and personal reply.

I'm definitely a Remington enthusiast and highly recommend you get the model of their product that you want any way you can get it.

But, with a feeling such as yours, I think you need to voice it directly at Remington.
They need the feedback.

You'd be happy with the Remington rifle, no doubt.  Find out what they have to say and tell us about it...
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:50:31 PM EDT
I would like to think Remingtons position on this is more marketing than anything else.  Not commercial marketing, but agency marketing.  They want the gov.org to feel like they have something that the regular militia doesn't have, even if it's only a slight modification to the stock and a name.
View Quote

Yes you know how elitist those pigs, people in
government suck, are; some agencies have bought
Styers and outher offshore brands with tax payers money. If they really wanted to be cool
they would buy good old American MADE Palma
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 9:11:00 PM EDT
You better be carefull, before long with everyone wanting to boycott somebody; there won't be anyone left to buy from.
View Quote

Not so! Thats not the American way. A growing
and healthy custom rifle industry is providing
options that no one major gun maker can defeat.
The big gun guys lose at least 10's of millions
beause they are not building the rifle for
the buyer. There are gun makers that buy componets and assemble rifles that shoot better
than anything Remington has ever made.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 9:17:29 PM EDT
Savage fans - I did not know about the ultimate varminter stock and sharpshooter trigger.  I might give it a second look, but I'm really looking for a little more in this rifle.  

SS109 - You are center mass on the smaller companies being more pro-RKBA.  Right about Ruger making a good bolt gun, too: and also two great .22LR's but I can't buy a ruger... or a kolt or s&w.  Thank old man ruger for the 10 round magazine limit.  

Stokes - I am sure you're right about the marketing thing.  Remington doesn't seem to be trying to stop distributors from selling them to the public anyway.  It just is another step in the wrong direction and a bad omen to me.  

1gunrunner - You are exactly right, and that is one side of my dilemma. I don't want any gun manufacturers out of business.  I would like to see ruger, kolt, and s&w busted and then taken over by pro-RKBA companies.

Hangfire - Good point. That is the other side of my dilemma.

Busmaster007 - Great idea.  That is exactly what I will do. Will post the results here.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 9:35:09 PM EDT
I had two pss 308,223 sold them. thinking about a savage police, there the only guys that make a left hand heavy. thought about a 40xb nah.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 11:00:14 PM EDT
If you're looking for a Model 70, look around for the Winchester Model 70 "Stealth"

I've been hearing nothing but good things about the Stealth series from various gun nuts who knit-pick over the most tiny of details.  The typical price of the Stealth even beats out the PSS too, quality control is said to be better than what Remington is currently capable of, and ofcourse it shoots like the blazes.

Everybody is having a hard time finding the things right now as supply is short, supposedly a new batch of rifles is coming out some time in june from the word of those over at Snipercountry.com
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 11:24:22 PM EDT
I recently read an article that stated Remmington bolts were defective.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 2:20:17 AM EDT
Consider a Steyr,  I purchased an SBS Prohunter last year in .308.  This gun will shoot! Period!  I was amazed at the rifles accuracy.  The triggers are fully adjustable and feel great.  And this is the cheapest rifle they carry.  If you like the feel, the rifle will get the job done.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 3:52:35 AM EDT
Hangfire: IIRC, the defective bolts were on the Remington 710, NOT the 700.  The 710 is a value-priced rifle and uses a cast bolt to lower the cost.

Link Posted: 5/1/2001 3:59:38 AM EDT
I've heard nothing but good things about the Stealth.

Remingtons are the workhorses of the tactical rifle community. Their decision to integrate actions with an aftermarket stock supplier (H&S Precision) is great. Straight out of the box, the 700s all suffer from the same problems.  The throat is way too long.  A lot of guys have the barrel set back and rechambered to give better bullet jump.  Crown is usually off centered or partially formed so that needs a quick swipe with the Brownell's 45 degree cutter.  (Dan Lilja found that the 45 degree crown is the most accurate.)  The action block needs the excess epoxy ooze cleared from the bedding block, especially in the recoil lug area.  Ensure that there is adequate depth for the lug to fit without bottoming against the stock.  Drill out the guard bolt holes in the bedding block a few thousdths to provide clearance.  Replace guard screws with socket head cap bolts...turn or grind a small bevel on the heads. Torque to 65 inch pounds.  Ensure front guard bolt doesn't protrude into locking lug recess.  If so shorten accordingly.  Ensure rear bolt is trimmed flush with rear receiver tab.  Ensure scope mount bolts do not protrude into action.  Shorten the front most scope mount screw slightly to prevent it from impinging on the threaded barrel shank.  Some replace the firing pin spring (24 pound) with a Wolff 28 pound spring to slightly increase lock time.  Don't use a 30 pounder.... too much wear on bolt camming surfaces. Reassemble and "put some steel" down range.

Remington is no more PC than the rest of the manufacturers.  If you drive them out of business, what have you accomplished?  The antis win either way.

Link Posted: 5/1/2001 4:50:22 AM EDT
Not so! Thats not the American way. A growing
and healthy custom rifle industry is providing
options that no one major gun maker can defeat.
The big gun guys lose at least 10's of millions
beause they are not building the rifle for
the buyer. There are gun makers that buy componets and assemble rifles that shoot better
than anything Remington has ever made. [/quote]

UUhhh..... Who's action do you think they use to build those custom guns? Remington by a large margin. There are a few Winchesters used, after that hardly any others.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 5:12:17 AM EDT
have you given thought to building one off a mauser 98 action?
you can pick up a C&R yugo mauser for less than $200, fluted heavy barrels run between $2-300, trigger goes for less than $100 + a nice stock. you will be a little below a remington, have had a gun built to your specs and have a well know as well respected action.
of course owning a savage 110fp i would have to also suggest them as well.
i lucked out and picked mine up off the web. it had a shillen oversized lug, bolt squared to receiver, barre;l recrowned, and trigger (stock one) reworked and set @3.5lbs. all this for $450 delivered!
and i found a nice laminated 112 stock at a show for $50.
there are deals out there. if you search a few of the gun boards, auction arms, world wide weapons mall, for the hunt, etc.
you run into guys who have had a bolt action worked on and now want to go to something like a styer scout or blaser, and are looking to sell their gun for the deal.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 5:26:38 AM EDT
I think that what S&W did is a lot worse than anything that Remington could do.  Personally, I will never buy any shotgun or rifle unless it is a Remington.  Their 11-87's 870's 700's and 7's are the best on the market.  I have messed around with Browning, but they cost to much $$$.  I think we should all send Remington a letter, not via e-mail but a well written business letter explaining to them what we demand in a rifle/shotgun and in a firearm's manufacture.  If we keep putting people out of business than the anti's will have there way!
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 5:40:54 AM EDT
Send a polite and inquisitive E-mail to Remington regarding your concerns, and tell them you expect a prompt and personal reply.

View Quote

I agree with BM007 -

Send a LETTER (formal communication) to Remington. Tell them your concerns about their political cowardice, and tell them you are considering NOT buying one of their products becasue of this (Specify the "varminter" as it is their policy not to sell PSS's to average guys like you and me)

Separately, CALL (on the phone) and voice the same concerns, and see what they say.

If in both communications, you get the same limp-wristed, weak response re: their support of RKBA, then act on your principles.

But its s little unfair to a gun company to base your buying decisions on third-party word of mouth and ennuendos and rumors.

Personally, if I boycotted everything I disagree with, I'd starve to death, and never buy another product from any manufacturer of anything.

AS far as boycotts go, pick a few of the things you are MOST adamant about, and boycott them.

Remington / Ruger etc are simply knucling under to a repressive, tyrannical gov't. I can't see blaming them ENTIRELY for their actions. Not until I see how I react under the same circumstances. People (and companies) do funny things when the gov't is threatening to take your means of earning a living away.

Just one man's opinion....

Link Posted: 5/1/2001 6:04:49 AM EDT
February's Peterson's Rifle Shooter magazine had a real nice article on the Savage 12-VSS Long Range Varminter rifle.
Its gone to the top of my bolt action wish list.

It comes in .223, .22-250 and .308

Link Posted: 5/1/2001 6:11:35 AM EDT
I have a Savage 10FP in 30-06 and a 112FV in .223.  Put the Choate Ultimate Sniper stock on both and a BSA scope on both.  Still less $$ than a Remington and just as accurate.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 6:47:54 AM EDT
I think it's just a marketing ploy. Remington wasn't selling enough PSS's or the LTR's.

I know! Let's restrict them to LE only! People won't by able to buy them fast enough.

 I've been seeing it at all the latest shows. Every table that has LTR's and PSS's can't get the paperwork ready fast enough. They are selling like hotcakes now!

I shouldn't talk though. I bought a PSS when they first came out. I love that rifle! It's heresy, but I shoot it more than my AR's.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:07:05 AM EDT
One other note, I am guilty of this as most of here are when we call our 700's "sniper rifles" which than can perform that duty.  However the general public see's this as bad.  We may want to call it  precision rifling to the hunters and anti's.
Just my option though.............
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:14:53 AM EDT
I've got a Winchester Heavy Varmint in .308 and it is a tack driver!  Never could figure out why more people did'nt go with the Winchester.  I have never really cared for the Remington rifles, I know they are excellent rifles, that are well built, but I've never been taken with them.  Give me a Savage or a Winchester.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:50:17 AM EDT
The problem with your idea of boycotting Remington is that the argument is rather weak.  Companies such as S&W and Ruger, who have publicly sold us out, S&W by agreeing to the government's demands and Ruger by lobbying for the magazine ban, must be punished by boycotts.  Companies such as Colt and Remington, who choose to market products as LEO only, when they are infact legal for all, should not be punished for harming their own profits.  One reason for selling guns as LEO only that are not is liability.  If someone uses a Rem 700 PSS in a shooting, Remington will not take much heat for selling 'high power sniper' weapons, as their policy is to sell only to the police but they cant stop FFL dealers from selling the firearms to the public.

In other words, why are you considering boycotting a company whose policy doesnt affect you to any significant degree(you still have to order the guns from an FFL, it just has 'police' engraved in the side), while allowing a company that lobbied for the magazine ban to get off without punishment?  When you can explain the logic in that, I might consider looking into boycotting Remington.

Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:49:14 AM EDT
I think a boycott is premature. Remington isn't making their distributors sign agreements that the PSS will only be sold to law enforcement. It is like Winchester not selling the Black Talons to "civilians" but everyone and their mother is selling them at the gun shows. If they start down the path of s&w then would be the time.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:10:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:50:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 10:54:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 11:11:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 3:37:32 PM EDT
I will not boycott Remington. The gun store that I mainly purchase from has lots of Remington P.S.S.'s for sale, in all calibers. As well, they sell brand new Remington 870's with the factory folding stocks. Yes, these weapons are marked "Law Enforcement Only", but they seem to be willing to sell them to the public, so why would I boycott this company? On the other hand, Ruger will not sell me their Mini 14 with a factory folding stock. For me, I sold the Ruger Pistol that I previously owned, and will not purchase any Rugers in the future.

Link Posted: 5/1/2001 5:00:39 PM EDT
Signals: the reason Ruger wont sell the Mini14 to you with the folding stock is that it is illegal for a post-94 weapon to have a pistol grip and folding stock if it has a detachable magazine.

Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:50:27 PM EDT
Sorry Kharn, I should have mentioned that I live in Canada where folding stocks and pistol grips all legal on mini 14's, and just about any other firearm. Companies like Colt, Armalite, and Bushmaster are willing to sell their "Law Enforcement" AR's in Canada; as well, Remington will sell their 870s with 14 inch barrels, or folding stocks, but Ruger will not sell their Mini 14 with a folding stock. Thus, I will never purchase a Ruger product, period. The way I look at it, if it is legal for me to own it, why won't Ruger sell it to me.

Link Posted: 5/2/2001 1:19:57 PM EDT
The PSS was "law enforcement only" since at least 1991, when I bought one.  It's a marketing ploy, and as far as I can tell it has never been enforced in any meaningful way by Remington.

In reading the link to "thefiringline.com" that [b]Big_Bear[/b] thoughtfully provided, it looks like they got bought out by another company a while back [owned] -- anyone know when this happened?  It sounds like that's when their quality control went downhill, from what people wrote on the other site.
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