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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/16/2004 10:22:47 AM EST
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1015YouthViolence15-ON.html

Boot camps not the answer to teen violence, experts say

Associated Press
Oct. 15, 2004 01:25 PM

WASHINGTON - Boot camps and other "get tough" programs for adolescents do not prevent criminal behavior, as intended, and may make the problem even worse, an expert panel concluded Friday.

Further, laws transferring juveniles into the adult court system lead these teens to commit more violence and do not deter others from committing crime, the panel said.

More promising, it said, are programs that offer intensive counseling for families and young people at risk.

he 13-member panel of experts, convened by the National Institutes of Health, reviewed the available scientific evidence to look for consensus on causes of youth violence and ways to prevent it.

" 'Scare tactics' don't work," the panel concluded in its report, released Friday. "Programs that seek to prevent violence through fear and tough treatment do not work."

Youth violence has declined from its peak a decade ago but violent crime rates are still high, the panel said.

Violence can be traced to a variety of troublesome conditions. Among possible causes: inconsistent or harsh parenting, poor peer relations, gang involvement, lack of connection to school and living in a violent neighborhood.

The trouble with boot camps, group detention centers and other "get tough" programs is they bring together young people who are inclined toward violence and teach each other how to commit more crime, the panel said: "The more sophisticated (teens) instruct the more naive in precisely the behaviors that the intervener wishes to prevent."

It also rejected programs that "consist largely of adults lecturing," like DARE.

One barrier to implementing effective programs, the report said, is resistance from people operating ineffective programs who depend of them for their jobs.

"All the evaluations have shown they don't work," said the panel's chair, Dr. Robert L. Johnson of the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey. "Many communities are wasting a great deal of money on those types of programs."

The panel looked for programs that have been tested using rigorous research methods and concluded that "the good news is that there are a number of intervention programs that have been shown" effective.

The report cited two: a therapy program where youth and their families attend 12 one-hour sessions over three months, and a community-based clinical treatment program that targeted violent and chronic offenders at risk of being removed from their families. This second program provided about 60 hours of counseling over about four months with therapists available at all hours.

One key, Johnson said, was letting counselors observe families children together and offer suggestions for better parenting.

Both programs reduced arrest rates and out-of-home placements, with positive effects four years after treatment ended.

The report identified six other programs that seemed to work but that hadn't been studied as closely, including Big Brothers Big Sisters, a nurse-family partnership program and Project Towards No Drug Abuse.

Successful programs share a variety of characteristics, the panel said. Among them: treatments last a year or longer, intensive clinical work with those at risk is included, they take place outside schools and other institutional settings.

---

On the Net:

National Institutes of Health consensus conferences:

http://consensus.nih.gov/

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:26:09 AM EST
I am immediately suspicious of this.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:28:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 10:28:54 AM EST by 444slayer]

Successful programs share a variety of characteristics, the panel said. Among them: treatments last a year or longer


Me, too. Maybe the boot camp just needs to be longer. I am all for them.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:29:15 AM EST
Some kids only understand toughness and someone screaming in their face.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:50:32 AM EST
WTf. So many kids these days think 'suicide' because they are so goddam selfish. When things don't come to them on a silver platter, they say 'To hell with it. Let's be a drama queen and attract sympathy.'

So many of them think of themselves, and only themselves, never their family and friends and their community.

Then again, oxyconton doesn't really help either...

Mark my words as the truth.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 12:39:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Steve_T_M:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1015YouthViolence15-ON.html


More promising, it said, are programs that offer intensive counseling for families and young people at risk.


I say BS for most juvenile offenders...they are just working the system to their benefit, the "I'm just a poor little juvenile " game.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 1:12:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 1:19:53 PM EST
This is just a symptom of two things: 1. The BS war on drugs, We can't lock up all the offenders so to "punish " them we put them through two weeks of this. Cheaper than Incarcaration. But some deluded fools think you can "reeducate" some one to behave by using the force of the state and the threat of jail.
2. This is a typical "re-actionary" response to unruly behavior. Oh yeah beat'em up that'll fix'em!! If you were doing something you liked like pot or drinking or something then some guy said to you, "stop it don't ever do it again" then preceeded to beat you, afterwards would you comply? or be bitter and now more angry and rebellious?? As to this, they only understand force thing, that's BS too. It is found that most violent kids have Strict Corporal punishment parents. They don't fear physical punishment cause they had it all their lives. As to "boot camp" they think, oh yeah like in the army that will straighten em out turn them into good God fearing citizens! Again totally wrong! Army discipline works because the people want to be there, they had a sense of duty before they came in to camp. people sentenced to this stuff just "play the game" to avoid punishment but really they are more stubborn than ever and you can't keep'em in these camp's forever. It's literally like the "re-education" camps of the communists!! Yeah just "set them straight about the truth" and they will conform and comply, after all, it is the truth right? Ok so I pointed out flaws so whats the answer? Psychology. Human brains work according to scientific principles and people with proper training about behavior ,both Child AND parent behavior, things can be worked out much better. studies have shown that most of the time it's both the kids AND the parents fault for such bad behavior. PS- just my 2¢'s
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 1:42:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 1:47:14 PM EST by goodmedicine]
I used to be a trip leader and counselor at a outdoor program for at "risk youth". I took them
on various trip locations using various modes of transportation. (canoe,backpack etc.)

I found that the most effective method, was dealing with them as adults. A lot of the kids were
very intelligent and resented being treated like inferiors.

My campfire group disscussions went something like this...

<Me> Ok, you are pissed at life?

<Them> Yea, shit ain't fair man!

<Me> Welcome to fucking life man! And don't get me started on the government.

<Them> What do you mean by that?

<Me> Nothing in life is fair yada yada yada...

The point being is I would direct and talk to them just like I would my best friend
who was letting his life go down the shitter becouse of stupid decisions he was making.

A boot camp is for toughening up an enlisted man not a drafted kid that has no life skills.

It only furthers resentment and resistance to participation in society in any positive way.

I raised my kids the same way and people were always impressed by how mature and
respectful they were.

I'm now enjoying the shit out of my grandkids becouse I know their parents are on top of things.

There still is no substitute for loving and caring parents from the get go, and that is what a lot
of these kids lack from the start.

$0.02

GM


eta (sp)


Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:04:45 PM EST
if you weren't violent before boot you will be after!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:33:23 PM EST
the article did get one thing right.


The DARE program is a worthless joke.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:26:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
You're missing the important point here. The reason those other programs work is because the actually GET THE PARENTS INVOLVED in the kid's life and activities. When a kid goes off to a "boot camp", the parent doesn't have to be involved, and many probably feel like it's a vacation from their parental responsibilities. The programs that get parents and their kids into the same room and force the parents to come to terms with their children's behavior will have a better chance of working, because once the parent can no longer deny the child's actions, he or she will be more inclined to pay closer attention and to discipline the kid.

Is there anyone who disagrees that parenting is the primary reason for the problems these kids cause? Yeah, I know that there are the occasional "bad seeds" that even the best parents can't control, but that is very rare. In most cases, the parents simply refuse to disipline the kid, or even worse, teaches their kids the poor behavior themselves by example.

I know plenty of parents take credit for raising good kids, and that's correct. But if that's true, then it must also be true that the bad kids are also that way due to their parents' actions.

-Troy



What do you do if the parents are garbage themselves? No amounting of prompting and prodding can fix that.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 3:14:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:02:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
What do you do if the parents are garbage themselves? No amounting of prompting and prodding can fix that.



That's true, and we don't have a good solution to that, unfortunately.

-Troy


Yeah we do; recognizing and evaluating bad home environments and removing the children at very young ages.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:23:52 PM EST
It used to be, you could drive your kid downtown, point down some alley at a wino or addict, and say, "See that bum, you keep up what you are doing, and that is where you will end up."

Now our govt gives bums and winos and dopers money to help their "disability", which they promptly use to buy more dope.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:38:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
It used to be, you could drive your kid downtown, point down some alley at a wino or addict, and say, "See that bum, you keep up what you are doing, and that is where you will end up."

Now our govt gives bums and winos and dopers money to help their "disability", which they promptly use to buy more dope.



Last I checked, you can still make that drive; you just need to know where to look.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:40:30 PM EST
I seen a few people get sent off to the programs like that, it worked on them
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:43:05 PM EST
If I had some asshole like me screaming in my face, it would wirk in me
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:50:10 PM EST
To say these boot camp programs work is like saying the military doesn't have any criminals in it's ranks. T-stox said it best, boot camp in the military works because the folks there typically want to be there.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:00:41 AM EST
this thread reminds me of the thread about "do you clean your guns when your daughter's boyfriend comes to pick her up." Remember all the responses where guys that a dad who played "mean gunowning dad" came across like a jackass, and that would inspire more guys to do unspeakable sexual things with daughter than to treat her with respect? Similar thought expressed in the original article in this thread: treating kids with screaming and boot camp does less good than talking to them like adults. Yeah, the boot camp works for some, but not a majority.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:15:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Steve_T_M:
........intensive counseling for families and young people at risk.

" 'Scare tactics' don't work," the panel concluded in its report, released Friday. "Programs that seek to prevent violence through fear and tough treatment do not work."



So a "Scared Straight" program won't work but "Talking" will?
I have to call BS on that!!!

I was about 12 years old and on a field trip to Cook County Jail in Chicago.
The boys were split off from the girls and we were "processed" by fingerprinting and having the booking pictures taken by some very stern people!
We were then marched down to the lower bowels of the jail, given a box lunch, and locked up in an old time cell to "enjoy" our lunch.

As the cell door swung shut it creaked and thudded closed......the policeman shaking it to show us that we WERE locked in.............."Enjoy your lunch Boys." he said as he left.

Not ONE word was spoken as we ate our sandwich........a few sniffles were heard but NOT one word for the 30 minutes we were in there.

I KNEW I didn't want to be there again!!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:38:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
What do you do if the parents are garbage themselves? No amounting of prompting and prodding can fix that.



That's true, and we don't have a good solution to that, unfortunately.

-Troy


Yeah we do; recognizing and evaluating bad home environments and removing the children at very young ages.



You obviously don't have a grasp on how horribly overwhelmed that system is. Social Services has to have some pretty serious evidence to take a kid from his/her family, and a lot of times, due to lack of funding and an overload of the system, they do nothing at all.
Government programs can only do so much. In big cities they are often understaffed, underpaid, and overworked to the point that they let some real bad situations slip through the cracks.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:51:41 AM EST
Troy is right. Many of these kids are messed up because of their parents. So you send them to boot camp and they shape up, then you send them right back home to the source of the problem.

There arent quick fixes to problems like this. You have to figure out what is causing the bahavior in a kid and then remove that factor before you can even begin to fix the child themself.

I think that half the reason these boot camps work is simply because they involve completely removing the kids from their envirnoment and from their destructive behaviors. It only works as long as they are actually AT boot camp though because they just get dumped right back into the same environment.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:55:16 AM EST
The problem is that no blanket solution will work for everyone. Every kid is an individual, and there is a way to reach each of them that is individual. I have seen some kids that will crack in a boot camp and get straightened out.

I have also seen kids come out of those things MORE defiant than when they were in them. The boot camp can take an already strong kid and make them MUCH stronger.

When you put someone through hell, they will either crack or get stronger. God help you if they get stronger....

There is no cookie cutter solution to teen problems. Better parents would go a long way to fixing things, as would better school environments. (Better meaning more meaningful discipline and better education) But even those things will not reach a certain percentage of kids.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:30:03 AM EST
As a twelve year prosecutor specializing in juvenile law, I should have all the answers to this thread. I don't.
There are some basic facts that I do feel comfortable posting.
1. Those of you who post that one size doesn't fit all are dead on.
2. I also have an inherent distrust of anything NIH puts out. In this, counterintuitive as it is, they are more right than wrong. Boot camps don't work. I personally think it's because the kids are put right back in the environment they came from. Which begs the question, where then do you put them?
3. My mantra, however, is "hot stove". As in, once you put your hand on one, you don't repeat the error. Note, however, that this only works if the subject is rational. Again, what do you do with the non rational ones, the crack babies, etc? Part of the problem is the mental health system, which I'm not smart enough to fix.
4. There are two main types of "bad" parents. The negligent ones, and the ones whose kids can do no wrong. No parent is perfect, but that shouldn't stop you from trying! There are `also "bad seeds"; kids who would be evil in even the best homes.
5. Another note about boot camps. One of the things that make people THINK they work is that many times, there is a honeymoon period when they are first released. They respond to adult communication with a "Sir! Yes, Sir!" and that tickles us. But within a few months, too high a percentage is back in their old ways.
6. NIH is not the first to say this.

Adios,
Bob
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 5:54:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
You're missing the important point here. The reason those other programs work is because the actually GET THE PARENTS INVOLVED in the kid's life and activities.
-Troy




Exactly!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:04:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 6:04:58 AM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
What do you do if the parents are garbage themselves? No amounting of prompting and prodding can fix that.



That's true, and we don't have a good solution to that, unfortunately.

-Troy


Yeah we do; recognizing and evaluating bad home environments and removing the children at very young ages.




Or, even better - identifying "bad" parents BEFORE they breed and sterilizing them !


Yeah, yeah - cry me river about civil rights, but things will be different when I'M in charge!!!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:11:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
What do you do if the parents are garbage themselves? No amounting of prompting and prodding can fix that.



That's true, and we don't have a good solution to that, unfortunately.

-Troy


Yeah we do; recognizing and evaluating bad home environments and removing the children at very young ages.



and put them where? foster homes? group homes?

bahahhahaa

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:22:27 AM EST
My solution to "juvenile crime"

Well, Mother-of-Delinquent, your child is being charged with murder/rape/arson/grand theft/whatever. Here are your options.

Option One is that your child is charged as an adult. If convicted, the child will be incarcerated in a juvenile facility to the age of eighteen, then transferred to an adult prison to serve the remainder of the sentence. If capital punishment will be applied, the child will be executed upon turning eighteen or when the appeals process is completed, whichever comes later.

Option Two is that your child is charged as a juvenile, and YOU are charged with [a long list of "accessory" charges]. In order to pick this option, you must agree that you will plead guilty to these charges if your child is adjudicated delinquent. If you default on this agreement, then you will be charged with all these offenses plus [perjury, escape, and others]. Capital punishment will not be applied if you choose this option.

In short, if he's "your baby", then you will accept partial responsibility for his actions. If you don't wish to accept responsibility for his actions, then he will bear the full punishment for his crime, just as an adult would.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:25:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Or, even better - identifying "bad" parents BEFORE they breed and sterilizing them !




I agree. A license ought to be required before bringing a potential serial killer into the world.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:07:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:23:43 PM EST
Boot Camp? Ok maybe not.

Boot in the ASS? More Effective Less Expensive!!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:07:06 AM EST
Boot camps work when they are properly run. The ideal boot camp would be one resembling ancient Egypt in which the juveniles are forced to build a full sized pyramid, stone by stone. As a matter of fact, that was how the original pyramids were built. The Egyptian pharohs had a juvenile problem too, so they rounded them up and put them to work. After they built the first one, the Egyptians stood around wondering what to do with it. One of the priests, thinking about job security, had the bright idea of burying the Pharoh inside. They all nodded in agreement and that is where the pyramids originated.

True story. No shit.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:25:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 1:35:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
[
and put them where? foster homes? group homes?

bahahhahaa



If need be, yes. Or place them permanently with other relatives. Or even remove parental custody rights and adopt them out. Any of those would be better than the environment that I see many of these kids being raised in now.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:56:57 PM EST
I think one of the problems with the "boot camps" may be the fact that the kids are not as stupid as we may believe.
They realize that no matter how much the Drill Instructor screams at them...He cant "hurt" them"
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