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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/26/2003 8:24:22 AM EDT
This past weekend, I attended a Bill Goodmans gunshow in Dayton. While walking around the show, I found a table with body armor for sale. The centerpiece of the table was a big sign that said in essence "Get your bullet proof vests now while you still can. Your legislature is trying to take them away from you." There were other flyers and signs on the table outlining how many states are now restricting the sale of body armor to Law Enforcement and Security personnell. While I was reading this "information", the guy running the table came over and asked me if I was aware that Ohio was going to start restricting the sales of vests. I told him that I was not. He then started in on this little tirade about how vests and firearms are linked, and that people need to be informed and fight for their rights. He said that he had tried to get statistics on criminals wearing vests, but no one would call him back because "they are trying to cover-up the real facts." Then he asked me how I felt about the issue. I don't remember exactly what I said, but I do recall calling him a useless slime willing to trade the life of a police officer in exchange for a wad of cash from the first gang-banger to walk in the door. I was so pissed off that I ended up leaving right then and there. So, did I go overboard? Is the right to keep and bear arms linked to the "right" to buy body armor at a gun show? David
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 1:08:48 PM EDT
I'll give you three guesses where he came across those vests, Out of date salvage from some dept possibly. Playing to the gullible tinfoil people more than likely, and no, I don't consider firearms and body armor linked. Offhand I can point to three cases here where the badguys wore armor. Of course there is the famous Bank robbery shootout in Cali.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 1:15:00 PM EDT
Yeah, I think you went overboard. The bad guys will find a way to get what they need regardless of legislation. The dealer may be a POS but Ohio is attempting to halt the sale of body armor to those with "a legitimate need". And you seem to assume that LEOs are the only one's who may need body armor. I know insurance agents (inner city Detroit), gun store owners, and convenience store operators who wear armor.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 1:20:00 PM EDT
Have you considered having some body armor at home? Wouldn't it be prudent to slip on a vest before you go check out that bump in the night? I see no reason why body armor shouldn't be available to civilians.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 1:20:21 PM EDT
Overboard. CHRIS
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 3:57:37 PM EDT
I am kind of torn on this one. We passed a law prohibiting felons from possessing body armor a few years back in this state, and as a cop, I am all for making the lives of professional criminals difficult. That being said, armor is generally a defensive emasure. For cops, it lets us (hopefully) defeat the reaction vs. action problem, where bad guys statistically get off the first shot in almost all police shooting incidents. For anyone else, it is defensive, though it could be used as part of an "offensive" strategy. I can see legitimate reasons for a felon, who may no longer be engaged in criminal activity, to own and wear body armor. I cannot, though, embrace any restrictions on body armor to normal citizens. As to cops being "out-equipped" by criminals with armor, criminals who want armor can always get or make it (had some interesting training on ad-hoc gang member body armor that is surprisingly effective), and that is why God gave us failure-to-stop drills and the .223 Remington patrol carbines.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 5:59:36 PM EDT
I am so far from being an expert in this topic but I do spend a lot of my time educating/filling my head with as much info and opinion on this subject. I read a piece by Ayoob on how homeowners should consider getting body armor. He wrote that it's a prudent thing to have when you need to go out and see what that noise is in your home. I haven't gotten any body armor and really haven't seriously thought about it but Ayoob made a persuasive argument for civilian use and ownership. Maybe a compromise would be to add a lot of years to the sentence of anyone committing an armed felony while wearing body armor. It won't do anything to stop the felon but that type doesn't think like the rest of us anyway.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:18:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2003 6:19:01 PM EDT by bvmjethead]
I see no reason in the world why sales of body armor should be restricted from civilians. Like everything else, if the justice system would hunt down and punish the many active criminals, instead of continuing with their LAME attempt's at "protecting" me from them, most of these problems would go away. Punish the criminal, not the inanimate object used in the crime. Jeepers H. Creepers already. How many brain cells does it take to figure this out? You went overboard.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:35:48 PM EDT
I have nothing against cops, but I hate the elitist LEOs who think that their right to an easy job outweighs some of our rights. If you are afraid of running into armored thugs, quit your job or just deal with it.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:51:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: I have nothing against cops, but I hate the elitist LEOs who think that their right to an easy job outweighs some of our rights. If you are afraid of running into armored thugs, quit your job or just deal with it.
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I wouldn't call a LEO making under 60 Gs an elitist. Maybe you should just make you point by trying to pursuade him instead of calling names. And saying someone just wants an easy job as opposed to maybe he just believes that a crook shouldn't have an edge against him is really not a pursuasive argument. And I'm someone who agrees with you on the rights vs. making a LEO job easier argument, but that is not where they are coming from in the debate. They don't believe your giving up a right as it doesn't say diddly in the Const. about body armor. You've got to work out a better set of arguments for you side than just a few accusations and a some name calling.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 11:28:02 AM EDT
Unfortunately there are a lot of LEOs that have an overinflated sense of their value compared to the average citizen. The LEOS should be armed nobdy else. LEOs should get passes on traffic and parking violations and nobody else. Body armor and nobody else People that are on the receiving end of this attitude get pissed. People who see the good ole boy lue line protective society in action get pissed. How many of you have made a traffic stop and the LEO stopped expects to get a pass? Did you give it to him? Did he do something bad enough that it may have hurt or killed someone? How about when a bad cop gets whitewashed? Why do we expect that bad cops should get canned and "good" cops try to protect them? There is getting to be an us-them attitude in this country and both sides are to blame. (BTW are you an us or a them or does it depend?) I think you over-reacted. I think that you should have known going into a gun-show you were likely to find vendors with a bias or off mainstream views. Why were you surprised? Heck I'ld be surprised if I went to a gunshow and didn't find a variety of whackos of many stripes.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 1:14:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bigern: Maybe a compromise would be to add a lot of years to the sentence of anyone committing an armed felony while wearing body armor.
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Works for me. I don't have a problem with non-LEO's owning vests - especially if they need them (working a dangerous job or whatever). I have no greater right to life than my neighbor. I agree it makes the job more dangerous, but we still let non-LEO's buy guns. (sarcasm)Wouldn't it be safer to ban guns and keep vests legal?(/sarcasm) CR
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 1:25:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 9:08:19 PM EDT
If I recall correctly (and a re-read confirms this), I NEVER said in my initial post that persons other than LEO's should have body armor. I have read several articles supporting the use of body armor in home defense situations, and they raise some good points. I also know several people personally that have to carry large amounts of cash, for banks drops and such, who have vests. More power to them. My beef with this guy was his whole tin-foil hat attitude, and the fact that he was trying to link owning a vest with the constitutional right to own a gun. He also had no problem selling to the first gang-banger or hill-jack that walked up to his table with the cash. I am not being an elitist JBT. I owned guns long before I became a cop. I am friends with several non-LEO that own guns. I look forward to a time when our government reads the Constitution and decides to follow it. Do I think that body armor should be restricted for civilians? No. Should everyone (me included) have to go to a reputable dealer to order and purchase the armor. Hell yes. I stand by useless slime statement. David BTW- If I get pulled over for speeding, I fully expect to get a ticket. Do I let the officer know I am a cop? Yes, but only because I carry a gun with me almost everywhere. I know I would like to know there is a gun a the car before I catch a glimpse of it when a person reaches for his wallet. Oh, and for the person who asked, the table was near the end of my route, so I saw most of the show before I left.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 9:26:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 12:00:29 AM EDT
A lot of states, mine included, make it a stiffer penalty and an additional felony charge to use body armor in the commission of a crime. If you are a law abiding individual I see no reason why you couldn't get one. JMHO.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:50:09 PM EDT
laws aside, i think most places have heavy penalties for using a vest in the commission of a crime. Here in Oregon, felons cannot possess body armor. But there are few laws against possession of body armor by citizens with no record. anyone can go to Galls.com But my question is were these older vests? Like older than 5 years? was he selling old vests at a deep discounts? Like, old and had been sitting in a nice hot warehouse for a few years? If he was... then don't buy one, or encourage a scumbag to get one and stand still. ;)
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 9:37:08 PM EDT
Definately overboard. Your logic could easily be applied to anyone selling a gun, because it could possibly fall into the wrong hands and kill a police officer.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 10:00:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CollegeCop: My beef with this guy was his whole tin-foil hat attitude, and the fact that he was trying to link owning a vest with the constitutional right to own a gun.
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I'd argue it could save your life, and thus allow you liberty and the pursuit of happiness, since you're still alive. But if the guy's saying the RKBA includes body armor, ehh...
He also had no problem selling to the first gang-banger or hill-jack that walked up to his table with the cash.
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So... You ASSUME he'd sell to anyone. Unless you saw him selling to a "gang-banger", or YOU look like a gang-banger yourself, you're making a pretty big leap there. Even if that's the case, you must know of some law that states background checks must be made for vests... right? Or is the seller to use their own discretion, based on someone's skin color, clothes, or smell? Yes, you overreacted. Yes, you've acted foolish to ASSUME something about a guy... and the assumption isn't even that he's doing something wrong. [rolleyes]
Do I think that body armor should be restricted for civilians? No. Should everyone (me included) have to go to a reputable dealer to order and purchase the armor. Hell yes.
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That's it, let's start registering bodyarmor. I'm sure the BATF(&BA?) will come up with some nice restrictions and hoops for us to jump thru. From now on, only dealers who the BATF&BA considers "reputable" can legally sell merchandise that may or may not stop a bullet. This should include anyone who sells thick slabs of metal, or any other object thick enough to stop a .22 bullet.
I stand by useless slime statement.
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Since I'm not as fuming about your statements as you were of his, I'll just go with "ignorant" rather than an insult (as ignorant means uninformed).
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:55:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:29:34 PM EDT
The jack asses are wearing body armor more than you think guys.. the other day we picked up a dope boy with body armor... some of the dope boys who raid/rob/torture other dope boys actually wear SWAT/SERT style body armor. But they sell dope and that's against the law.. the great majority don't have licenses and they still drive and all of them violate the conditions of there parole/probation every chance they get so of course a law stopping them from possessing any kind of body armor will stop them dead in their tracks and lead them down the path of reform...[rolleyes] Should non LEOs be able to buy body armor..why not? The only thing I have a problem with is someone who would be selling crap vests that are old and expired....there ought to be a law regarding that![nono]
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